Idaho Doug's Sunrader build

[IdahoDoug]

Super cold here this evening and all I had time for was to test fit a roof beam, and make the 22 brackets that will connect each beam's end to the sturdy aluminum side plates.  Here are the 1/8" thick brackets, drilled where they'll attach to the wall, and bent slightly greater than 90 degrees to match the upward slope of the curved beams as they arrive at the plates.  Once the beams are resting on the brackets, I will drill the final hole that will connect the brackets to the beams to augment the epoxy:

 

[IdahoDoug]

Well, I installed the first 3 roof beams today after many false starts and changes in direction requiring hardware store runs for different fasteners.  Originally, I wanted to avoid drilling any holes in the roof or sidewall, but it was not to be.  The beams terminate at a thick 10' aluminum plate and I'd planned to drill and thread into this for the vertical loads of the beams.  However, the thread tap has a taper on the business end as well as a pointy nose to stay centered in whatever work you are doing.  As a result, I could only thread the aluminum plate about 2/3 of its depth and I was not confident that reduction in fastener connection would handle the heavy roof loads I have in mind.  So, off to find stainless hardware and marine bedding compound.

 

I drilled clear through the plate and fiberglas wall, used washers and now there is a solid mechanical connection of the beams, as well as a full length epoxy joint against the roof, and further epoxy where the beams meet the walls and thick aluminum brackets I made.  It's an upgrade in strength and ironically solves a conundrum I've been mulling.  After the beams are installed, I wanted a way to know EXACTLY where the beams are in the event I want to drill into them later for a roof rack, roof hoist, roof tie down anchor points, etc.  Now the two screws at each end of each beam solve that handily.

 

So, here are the front two beams:

 

A closeup of the beam/side plate joint.  Note that I smeared epoxy all over the joint to further stiffen it up, lock the fasteners in place, and I hope to never hear so much as a beam creaking when I go over twisting bumps, etc.  Nothing worse than a creaky roof, and this should prevent any movement.  At the end of each beam, just before install, I shoved a teaspoon of epoxy into the hollow beams, knowing the epoxy would flow against the side plate to provide an even stronger and immobile overall joint.  Each surface was roughened with 60 grit, then wiped with brake cleaner for maximum adhesion:

 

The sides of the beams have random smears of epoxy on them, as I deliberately bedded them thickly with epoxy to account for unevenness of the fiberglas roof surface to achieve a 100% solid connection between - no air pockets or low spots in the uneven roof that are not full of epoxy the entire length.  So, it naturally dripped down the sides and I scraped off the excess as I will be putting Foamular insulation tightly against the beams and want a smooth side of the beam - not rough drips of epoxy.

 

Here you can see the "squeezeout" of epoxy at the rear vent hole - indicating full contact between roof and beam.  There is clear plastic over the hole, and the blue fabric is a moving blanket I have up on the roof to hold in some heat tonight to cure the epoxy.  I have a couple of electric heaters running full blast and it's keeping the space at 70. 

 

 

I could have kept putting up beams, but I quickly discovered adjacent beams will cause interference.  I put one in the rear, then moved the rams to do another and noticed it was starting to lift the fiberglas off the still wet roof beam.  So I went to the front and put two beams in that happened to play well with each other, plus I did not use the ram to lift.  My new technique is to manually shove the beam up, mark where the bracket will hold it, drill and mount the brackets, then insert the epoxied beam into one, leaving the other bracket secured loosely by one bolt.  With one end in a bracket, you just push up the beam hard enough to get it into position for the other side, swiveling that loose bracket into place and resting the beam atop it.  Then install the second bolt in the bracket to secure it and wait for the excess epoxy to finish squeezing out.  Scrape that out and repeat.   So on my next session, I won't be using the rams to lift the roof as they interfered with the wet beams, and will be able to move along more quickly.  That will be a relief as I am also regularly banging my head on the low hanging wooden rams. 

 

What I like most about this solution is that the beams don't reduce headroom at all if someone plans to replace the factory roof insulation as I am.  The 1" Foamular will be quite an upgrade compared to the then-state of the art of styrofoam, and when that's done I will have a uniform surface to glue roof paneling against.  

Edited November 20, 2023 by IdahoDoug

[extech]

um   they do make bottoming taps, but i think what you have done is better

[IdahoDoug]

Yep, have some in other sizes. Before running out to get one, I practiced with a scrap piece of the side plate where I could fully thread it, and not getting a good feeling about the final structure strength was the decision point.

[IdahoDoug]

Well, a bit of a "Sunrader miracle" happened tonight.  So, I knew the beams at 1" thick were going to actually lower the ceiling height close up against the walls, which wouldn't matter as you can't walk there.  But I only wanted to save ONE THING from the original interior.  One thing.  The bathroom.  I eyeballed it and knew it would be close once the beams were in up front and I tried to push the bathroom back in its spot with the wall side of the unit under those new beams.  Tonight was the night to do that, and incredibly, it fit.  So tightly it was like I planned it.  I will need to trim a bit of the upper flanges here and there, but it was incredible.  

 

I'm not going to do any trimming just yet, as I have the floor replacement still ahead of me.  I'd hate to trim it and then find out I lostgained a quarter inch of height due to whatever I opt for on the floor.  Here's a shot of the bathroom back in its location. I've loosened the bathroom ceiling to get it back into place, and to resecure the roof, I'll notch that center section that goes atop the doorway.

 

 

And the roof beams proceed apace.  Here's looking rearward with 3 beams in place up front, one at the extreme rear, and the ram is holding the roof up in position for the 4th beam from the front, which is at the rear of the forward roof vent opening.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Wahoo! 4 beams left of 11.  The actual installation time is averaging about 1hr, 10 minutes.  Here are the steps, after of course bending them, cutting to 6', making the "L" brackets, obtaining the epoxy and obtaining the 154 stainless fasteners.

 

1 - Trim the ends of the beam to fit the exact spot so it will sit up there friction fit.  I am using a chop saw with an aluminum blade, and the rough angle on the saw deck to match the slightly angled tops of the walls drawn on paper and taped on the deck as a reference line for trimming them.  Takes about 4 cuts as you carefully zero in.  Cut too much and the ends will not be tightly against the heavy aluminum side plate. You want them to be in actual contact as to flex an arch, you have to spread the ends.  Don't give them room to spread.

 

2 - Shove the beam up as high as it will go, and mark that highest level with a sharpie on each end.  Choose a bracket for each end and mark them "R" and "L" as my drilling holes in the bracket aren't perfectly consistent.  Hold them up and mark on the side plate the center of the holes for drilling.  Drill the holes all the way through the wall on both ends.  Go out sided with brake cleaner and clean the area around the holes.  Get a bolt/washer, coat the washer with 3M Marine Bedding Compound and go back out to put them in from the outside.  You'll need a ladder on each side. Put a box end wrench on one of the bolts of whatever bracket you'll install first - I always did the Right ones first.

 

3 - Back inside, put the Right bracket up, install the nut and tighten it against the wrench on the outside. Go back outside and switch the wrench to the other bolt head.  Back inside, tighten the second bolt so that bracket's secured.  For the left one, only insert the lower one all the way, and make it finger tight so the bracket is hanging upside down and switch the wrench to this bolt. 

 

4 - Mix a full pair of the large tubes of JB Weld Original epoxy.  No fast cure version - the strongest original formula is their best.  Wipe all around where the roof beam will touch the side plate, the bracket, and INSIDE the end of the roof beam with brake cleaner for max adhesion.  Spread the epoxy about 1/8" thick the length of the top surface of the beam - stopping a couple inches from the ends as it won't contact the roof.  Put a thin smear on the underside at the ends where it will mate with the bracket.  Save a thimble full to put in each end of the beam, which will flow toward the wall and provide even more adhesion.

 

5 - Place the beam in the right side bracket, and keeping it properly aligned, lever the beam up against the roof, with your eye and hand at the extreme left end where you'll be prevented from perfectly centering it by the lower bolt holding the bracket loosely.  Once it's pushed up above the bolt, move the beam to center it above the bolt.  Now swivel the bracket up under the beam while shoving the beam very hard to flex it beyond where it will rest, then let it down onto the bracket which is now properly positioned.  Tighten the lower bracket bolt, then go back outside to push the upper bolt all the way in and switch the wrench to the upper bolt.  Back inside, tighten the upper bolt.

 

6 - The bracket will have another hole you'll insert a screw in to pull the beam and bracket tightly together, but you haven't drilled the hole into the bottom of the beam yet as they need to match up perfectly and now's the time.  Drill the hole in the bottom of the beam and install the screw.  Watch how as they come together a satisfying smoosh of epoxy comes out, showing these parts are mated for life.  

 

7 - Now check carefully along the roof/beam mating surface to see that all along the length you also have a nice smoosh out of epoxy - indicating there is no air between them, just soon to be permanent bonding from the epoxy.  Use the scraper to remove the excess because you don't want that lumpy ridge up there later when you're fitting hard foam board between the beams, and you have a use for that excess.  Scrape the excess back onto the pan or whatever you are using to mix the epoxy into.  If you find a spot without good squishout, just jam some in there.  Do this on both sides.

 

8 - Now take the excess epoxy and make nice fillets where the bracket and wall plate meet, smear some around all the edges where the bracket meets the beam, then put some on the bolts/threads so nothing can vibrate loose with years of happy Sunrader motoring ahead of you.   If you were using the wooden ram to push the ceiling up (you'll use it at first but less as the roof is being held up by more and more beams), take pressure off it so the full weight of the roof comes down on the beam and it's at its natural resting place.  Trim any excess squishout.

 

9 - Go inside and use warm water to clean the epoxy off your hands, clean the mixing plate and your scraper and set it aside to dry.  Now do this 11 times.

[linda s]

Your clearly doing an excellent job but eleven seems excessive.  We are all top heavy and I would worry about the extra weight up there. The later Sunraders came with 2 beams , 1 for the shorties,  and I have never seen one fail. 

Linda S 

[Toycollector47]

3 hours ago, linda s said:

Your clearly doing an excellent job but eleven seems excessive.  We are all top heavy and I would worry about the extra weight up there. The later Sunraders came with 2 beams , 1 for the shorties,  and I have never seen one fail. 

Linda S 

I do believe he’s aiming for roof load capacity (snow load, and cargo load)

 

Maybe a patio?

 

 

either way,

 

Happy Thanksgiving!!

[IdahoDoug]

Thanks, Linda.  Yep, hoping it is strong enough to sit up there, pull kayaks up to secure, etc.  The weight is 32lbs for the beams, 30 for the side plates, so appx 65 with fasteners n epoxy.  After this, I'm adding 3 sheets of Foamular board insulation, and some as yet found veneer. Probably 20 more pounds.

 

But I pulled down about 30 lbs of foam, wood and staples.  So 45lbs net add - unfortunately at the roof.
 

Then adding an electric vent fan in one hole vs plain one it came with, so a few more pounds!

[linda s]

The existing roofs are stronger than you think. My Nissan spent most of it's life in Alaska and before I got it, it had been abandoned in a field for 2 years in upstate New York. Where I grew up and known for it's massive lake effect snowfall. No beams on it at all and roof doesn't sag. Top heavy can make driving dangerous with our puny suspensions. Just saw your post. Not as much weight as I thought. I go on my roof all the time. Like sitting up there especially for fireworks and of course to clean it. When I bought my Toyota I weighed 220lbs. Never felt like I was doing any harm. 

Linda S

I weigh nowhere near that anymore.

[IdahoDoug]

Thats remarkable and speaks to the strength of the initial design which essentially was a composite structure like a surfboard or composite airplane wing.  
 

On mine, the poor thing sat in a mountain snow area and it broke the vents eventually.  That let sustained water exposure soak the foam, the laminates failed, it sagged n created a roof pool which continued the mayhem.

 

Hearing your story gives me confidence the next step will add useful strength. The Foamular is the strongest foam board, and it will be strongly glued to the Fiberglas roof skin. Then a ceiling layer will make it just like the original roof structure, but with stronger glues and foam.  Fingers crossed!! 

[existentialferret]

Fantastic work! I’m scoping out my roof and will be adding wood arches. Getting lots of inspiration from yours. What do you think is the height of the arch of your beams? You mentioned a ballpark of 2” I think earlier. 
 

Looking forward to the next steps!

[IdahoDoug]

Like any hand bent item, there was variance among my beams.  From about 2.4" to 2.7" in height.  I used the shortest ones at extreme rear and extreme front where you won't stand much/at all.  The tallest near the vents where there will be things protruding down slightly.  I'm installing a MAXX powered vent at rear, and one day may add a roof A/C unit to the forward one (basic MAXX vent for now).  Here's a pic of an average one:

 

 

I thought about wood also, and researched how to steam bend 1" red Oak staves.  It looked totally doable, frankly and finding a way to bend these stout aluminum beams was a chore.  I nearly bought a $300 machine just to do it, hoping I could sell it on Craigslist afterwards.  What I like about this setup is with the epoxy on everything, it should be a totally silent roof. No squeaks, chatters, fluttering, etc when underway.  If you use wood, I recommend you similarly "pot" each beam in epoxy and do the same where they attach to the sidewalls so nothing moves and nothing works loose.  A moving vehicle is quite a challenge to structures with all the banging, vibration and temp changes it experiences.

[existentialferret]

Appreciate it, thanks!

[IdahoDoug]

Well, super happy to say that all 11 beams are up.  The last 3 are now curing.  Tomorrow, I'll put the aluminum struts around the vent holes the new vents will screw into for a stout frame.  Sunday I may mount the MAXX vents.  I'll have to gin up a cardboard box with a heater in it up on the roof to get the self-leveling goop to do its thing.  Heck if I can find a big enough box, I'll be sitting up there IN the box working on it!

 

Here all the beams are up.  The wider spaced ones are where the two original vent holes are.  All told, I probably have about 40 hours into this solution if I include shopping for the aluminum stock, driving 150 miles round trip to bend them, fabricating the brackets, sanding the inside of the roof to prep it for fresh epoxy and the glue for the foam panels.  Probably going to add another 10 hours for gluing up those panels, but stopping  on the roof before that, as I need to mock up the interior a bit and see if I'm going to anchor cabinets into the roof beams.  Once I cover them up, I won't be able to install a strong "L" bracket, etc to anchor something.  Tonight's achievement:

 

Interestingly, I found today that I could actually add more arch height to the beams by carefully standing on them and gently bouncing.  I laid a straight edge across the bottom of some and they were not perfectly aligned - which would be a miracle frankly - but these last 3 beams were on the less arched side and I noted I was maintaining an alignment of less than a quarter inch!  So, I wanted the roof pushed up to maintain that, rather than install tepid arches.  I haven't checked with a straight edge to see what I achieved, but will.  

 

Speaking of "foot bending".  I have a 12th beam that I bent too far while learning how to use the roller bender, and it was about a 3.25" arch. I figured it was scrap and I need about a 60" piece to frame the sides of the vent holes.  Just to see what happened, my success with adding arch today emboldened me to try straightening the scrap arch for the vent holes.  It worked. You just walk back and forth on it holding on to something stable (a car in my case) and gently bouncing, picking up and checking, bouncing more on the spots refusing to straighten, etc.  I got it back to VERY straight to my surprise!  So now this last bit will be used and I'll have only a few inches of scrap from the purchase of 72 FEET of 1X1!!  Pretty happy about that.

[IdahoDoug]

Today was a bit hectic as wanted/needed to get the roof holes filled with the two MAXX vents, and I ran out of butyl tape.  Had to drive to the "big city" of Spokane, WA to find some in stock.  I did manage to get them both in. Finished up by headlamp:

 

That white stuff is Dicor Lap Sealant, which is designed to flow slowly and flatten itself out.  I was worried about applying it at 35 degrees but it seemed to flow about as fast as the many videos I watched about using the product.  I hyper prepped the surface by cleaning it down to the gel coat, then a light sanding for some "tooth" and a wipe with brake cleaner.  Pretty uneventful install, though I broke two drill bits, and snapped two screws on the more basic vent.  The screw quality was much nicer on the mack daddy powered vent I installed on the rear - appeared to be stainless fasteners where the basic vent screws were merely coated. And weak!

 

Here's some good news:

 

 

I walked all around the roof and my 180lbs didn't flex it anywhere!  The added framing around the two vents made a big difference as those roof beams are 14" apart (vs 10" for others), and I'm happy I have achieved my goal of a walkable Sunrader roof.  Sure needs a cleaning up there.

 

Now I can relax a bit, with 6-8" of snow hitting for the first time of the season starting Saturday.  The roof is waterproof and can handle even a severe snowload.  These are MAXX Air's 4 season versions and they also don't need a winter cover and will operate in the open position even in the rain. Having the vent holes stoutly framed will also avoid the failure of a vent that is pushed out of square by heavy snow, and breaks its seals.  You'll see I added fore and aft beams to the holes, which are both screwed into the cross beams and epoxied to both the beams and fully potted in epoxy against the roof. I stood on the vent frames and they feel solid.   Here's a shot of the interior.  The red is a heat lamp I have on both vents to help the Dicor continue to cure. I'm sure it will take a week to fully cure, though when it has a good "skin" I'm going to put heat directly on it to help it finish.  I want the skin as I'll use fabric to insulated it and don't want prints in the material.

 

I'm not sure what step is next.  I think the floor, but I need to take a wall panel off to see how much room for insulation I have.  I think it's only 3/4" - anyone know?

[IdahoDoug]

Just got back from a specialty plywood store and I'm pretty excited I found some nice 1/8" plywood to use for the roof and walls.  I also got 3 sheets of marine grade plywood for the floor.  I've decided not to tear the entire floor out, but instead will be screwing and glueing down strong 3/8" marine grade plywood.  I don't have any serious rot save a couple square feet where the fresh water tank sat.  The rest of it's just slightly wavy here and there and a trouble spot near the left wheel well where the plywood oddly curled up a good 3/4", but back under the cabinetry.  So, I'll cut/grind that down, then hose down the floor with Loctite's MAXX adhesive and to to town with some wood screws to simply add a layer to what's already there. A little shocking at $700, but this will cover all walls, the ceiling and the floor so it was a LOT of surface area.

[WME]

Somewhere in the forum there is a floor repair post. Glued the new plywood down and then drilled 3/8 holes through the new wood and 2/3 of the way through the old floor, made the holes in a grid. Jack the old floor level then coat 3/8 dowels with epoxy and drove them into the holes. Let everything set up, flush cut the dowels and then sanded the floor. 

Very rigid 

Idea is new screws will pull out of the old floor, hammering the epoxy coated dowels in forces the epoxy everywhere into cavities in the old floor, much stronger.

EDIT found it...https://toyotamotorhome.org/forums/index.php?/topic/10066-87-sunrader-floor-project/#comment-93485

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by WME

[IdahoDoug]

Thanks for finding that.  Looks like he had a different objective in mind where he just wanted a strong (vs spongy) floor and was OK with a non level/wobbly floor.  Plus his bonus of not removing the cabinets.  I've done some research on foam and adhesives and suspect he dissolved huge chunks of the styrofoam under there by injecting the resin into it.  There are not many glues/adhesives that don't dissolve styrofoam. I want to preserve mine. 

 

My goal is both a strong floor and a flat floor, so I think I'll stick with a fairly traditional plan of laying marine plywood down on the existing floor with a thick layer of high end Loctite construction adhesive, then some screws to pull them together into a VERY stiff laminate.  

 

By far the best I've seen is Yestertech's technique of lifting the coach and cab up off the frame a couple inches, then putting both new 1" Foamular insulation AND new plywood down.  Genius and it moved me to reach out to him.  He kindly did and we had quite a conversation about his technique and what he learned. That's more work than I want to do, plus mine is a 21 and his is an 18.  I don't have the sagging issues at all, though those wings will get a substantial reinforcement with my lamination.   I'm excited to get going on it and am trying to figure out how to deal with the shower unit still being in there.  I have to move it about for various phases but removing the shower's top just made it much more flexible and I may be able to move it more easily now!

 

PS Also, I continue to be completely satisfied with the roof strength.  Today, I realized I need to cover/insulate the outside of the roof again.  Soon I will be pushing pieces of glued foam directly against the fiberglas, and the new insulation itself will prevent the heat of the interior from reaching the fiberglas/foam junction to cure the glue. So if it's 30 degrees on the other side of the fiberglas, the glue will be 30 degrees and take time to cure. Just before our first big snowstorm, I realized today I'd better get up there and lay down some moving blankets and foam, then cover it again with a tarp so this insulation stays dry and effective.  Now the heat in the interior from my portable heater and heat lamps will be able to warm the fiberglas roof somewhat.  As evidence, the interior was at 53 degrees and with no changes, it's now 70.5 degrees.  

 

When I did this, I hopped up there with impunity and did not have the tentative "is this going to hold me or make a big crack sound?" approach.  Just hopped up there and whacked around with a broom and brushed off the snow, briskly stepped around pulling up the tarp and hopping over the folded edge, etc.  Totally solid! Super stoked.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by IdahoDoug

[WME]

Fiberglass resin + foam= bad. Epoxy resin + foam=good

[IdahoDoug]

Good to know!

[Bob the Builder]

Doug, I've been using quite a bit of epoxy and polyester resin fiber glassing on my project and it is great! Depends on what you are fiber glassing for your resin choice. Each has its uses. You can poly to poly and epoxy to poly, but not poly to epoxy for best results. I'll be posting some pics later, but just wanted to chime in with WME. If you are overlapping layers on the epoxy, just scuff down each layer with wet 3M pads and wipe it clean. Epoxy resin can develop an amine coating that affects adherence. Have been following your project closely. Quite an operation with those roof bows. I wish I had your energy. It should be really nice when you are done.

[IdahoDoug]

Thanks for finding the thread, btw. With the Loctite, once the screws pull the new wood down against a liberal application of it, when cured nothing will move. Ever.  Its stronger than the wood and the wood will pull apart first.  
 

Nothing against fiberglas, in fact I enjoy using it and have on several projects. My concern here was dissolving the insulating foam, which does not appear to be a risk if epoxy resin is used.  

[IdahoDoug]

So the Sunrader's tires arrived today! Thats a few months before I need them, as I am doing an axle swap as part of this.  However, I could refinish the 6 lug duallys and have these mounted.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Today I got the first few insulation boards up on the ceiling.  The fit is what I'd hoped in terms of the beams and insulation being the same level.  Should make for a good process glueing up the interior wood paneling. Unfortunately my plan to use 3M HD 90 spray on contact adhesive did not work out.  Even though it says OK for some foams it's not OK for this.  Reverted to using the Loctite which unfortunately makes it a days long process of gluing, propping up and curing, then moving on.  Versus a couple hours of slapping foam chunks up there - argh.

 

 

 

[Bob the Builder]

Looking good, Doug. I'm sure that's how I will have to proceed on mine.

[WME]

This is a little late for yall, but maybe for the next update.

https://learnmetrics.com/insulation-r-value-chart-per-inch/

[IdahoDoug]

Importantly, the polyisocanurate panels turn out to be a very poor choice against cold.  As temps drop, that stuff oddly loses its R factor where the XPS does not.  Seems almost criminal they do not disclose that - like they made the stuff to perform well at the govt standard's test temp (74 deg?) but saved money on the rest of the temp spectrum - the cold end where you MOST need it!

[IdahoDoug]

So, got the LAST piece of the Owens Corning XPS up today.  By Sunday I hope to try glueing up the first piece of celling paneling.  Need to figure out how to mark it for the puck lights, and get the wiring in place for that beforehand.

 

 

I can already tell the benefit of the insulation as I've kept the interior as warm as possible with a 1500W electric heater for 3 weeks as I've been glueing and epoxying.  For the first time, it's shutting down periodically at the medium setting now.  it used to run 24/7. The roof is the highest heat loss and the best place to put good insulation, and it shows. 

[Bob the Builder]

Looks absolutely terrific, now you can do mine! Seriously, it looks great. I'm thinking about how much cooler it would be in the summer for us cause "Bob " don't do cold. I'm doing the foil backed instead of the foamular, but I understand your need for the strength.

[IdahoDoug]

Sunday, December 10:

 

Thanks, Bob! Yes, it makes a big difference in summer heat as well as winter, and frankly the former is more of an "realized benefit" as it's rare that we camp in very cold weather.  Cool fall weather - sure.  But when it's 40 or below you can barely sit around a camp fire as one side of you gets cold, and if there'a any wind, everyone's back in their vehicles.  

 

I insulated our Vanagon and a heater we used to use in it to stay warm we found after heating it for a while before bed time could be run only on the pilot light overnight and kept it comfortable. That included insulated winter covers I made, which frankly is probably equivalent in reducing heat loss to ALL the other insulation in that van.  I'll do the same for the Sunrader as that's true for it as well.  Heat loss through windows is horrendous!

 

So tonight was an exciting night as it means the end of the work on the ceiling is in sight.  I put up the first ceiling panel over the insulation, which is 1/8" mahogany plywood.  It's the hardest of the 3 pieces that will go up as the front is pointed toward the bed (Sunrader wasted a BUNCH of space up there and my plan will get all of it back), and where each roof beam meets the side I had to painstakingly measure and cut out a square.  I used two full tubes of glue on it. Here, I have a crazy number of wood pieces holding it up, and for clarity what look like cross beams are simply 1X3's spreading the load all the way across the ceiling.  

 

 

Regarding the space they wasted, you can tell there's a point to the piece at the front centerline if you look to the left of the third vertical brace from the right.  The line on the piece's centerline runs forward right to the point of the V.  If you look straight under that point, you'll see over 4 inches of headroom the overcab bed ceiling simply gives away.  So far, my plan is to use padded marine grade ceiling fabric in the overcab ceiling, so it will simply wrap directly on the fiberglas to the point of the V, hugging the fiberglas and proving some nice headroom improvement there.  I may use some insulation in the overcab roof - perhaps 1/2" board. Not sure yet.

 

The next two pieces are roughly squares, so it won't take 2 hours of fiddly trimming like this part did...

[IdahoDoug]

Tuesday, December 12:

 

Got the 2nd piece up and somehow it also took over an hour of fiddling to get the part the right shape, the notches for the beams in the precise right spot, the puck light holes, the puck light wires laid into a melted slot in the insulation, etc.  Quite the bummer the contact cement was not compatible, as I have to wait a full 24 hours for each panel to cure before moving to the next piece.  I got 8 puck lights and hope that's enough.  One right inside the door, three down the hallway, and a pair over the dinette. I think one over the bed and one in the bathroom will do it. I will have 4 dimmers for each of these 4 zones - the manual spinning knob type.  I'm not a fan of any of the digital light controllers as I'm too impatient.  I'd rather walk in, grasp a knob and turn it instantly to the desired brightness and walk on without breaking stride.  When I see these YouTuber van builders stop, click through a menu, turn a light on, press and hold until their brightness is set, I chuckle to myself.  I say the old form factor was better and I'm sticking to that.

 

I will also have a couple hidden low LED strips under counter edges to have a red night light setting for those 3 a.m. bathroom trips.  Getting old is not for the faint of heart!

 

And wouldn't you know it, after working all summer on a home improvement project around 4 different types of saws,  I nicked my finger with the jigsaw tonight.  So, I've managed to contribute 2 of the "blood, sweat and tears" that a truly magnificent project often engenders.  Hopefully no tears on this one.  

 

I also picked out the material for the dinette, and spoke with an upholsterer who will make the cushions for me.  Glad I'm a bit of a planner, as they are booked out through March!  So, I'll get a diagram to them, receive an estimate, and pay the 50% upfront fee as soon as I can.  I'm a little nervous about the estimate, as I have never in my life paid for upholstery work and I've heard it's frightful now after the pandemic caused labor issues.  

 

I'm also on the hunt for ceiling fabric to put in the cabover sleeper.  Brought home some high end white fleece to show my wife and we both agreed it looks cheesy.  So I'll likely order a more traditional choice - marine hull liner.

[IdahoDoug]

Got some 1/2" insulation board for the overcab sleeping area.  I'm going to put that against the fiberglas, then lay 1/4" foam padding, followed by marine grade hull liner as a cloth surface we can bump elbows against harmlessly, with that low ceiling.  It will also drop noise levels while sleeping compared to the hard panel the factory used, and also lower than padded vinyl - another thought I had.  Samples of the cloth liner arrived today and we chose a color.  I'll also use the samples to test the glue that arrived also today - 3M automotive trim adhesive which 3M said would be best for the cloth.  They could not, however, confirm it will work on the foam insulation board, as it has a layer on it.  I had to call the insulation factory to find out what the layer is, as it was not on their spec sheet.  It's polypropylene and 3M says "nyet" as they've never tested that.  So I'll be the guinea pig as is often the case with my projects.

 

Tonight, I got the final mahogany panel up on the ceiling and its curing until Saturday evening. Can't wait to get all those boards, braces and such out of the Sunrader to start working on the next phase.  

 

 

This was a particularly vexing piece as it involved the square cutout for the powered vent, cutouts and wiring buried into the insulation board for 3 puck lights, and the front and back of the piece had to perfectly match the former piece and the rear edge of the roof.  Which is decidedly not square.  It's about a half inch arch with huge, gnarled chunks of fiberglas and resin from an overzealous day at the factory.  Glad to have it done - took twice as much fiddling as the other 2 pieces.

 

Today I also finalized the dimensions for the dinette, so I can complete a drawing to send to the upholstery shop for an estimate.  Glad I redid this from my original sketch as I split the cushions a different way so when someone sets it up back there for sleeping, the back and side pieces can be stowed against the ceiling so the bed has 6'4" of length as I'm about to have a son in law who's 6'3".  I also lowered the plywood base a bit vs factory, and am using much thicker cushions, and also lowered the height back cushions so they don't interfere with my plan for blackout blinds that are "one pull" to use instead of fiddly.  

[Bob the Builder]

You go, Doug! Looking good. Can some of that energy and send it my way. At least you are doing the part I'm not ready for yet. That will give me a leg up when I get there. Still plumbing and such on mine.

[IdahoDoug]

Keep 'er going, Bob!  I find with projects if I maintain momentum my brain automatically dedicates some time to solving the myriad problems of a complex and long term nature.  And that in turn keeps my head in the game and maintains my enthusiasm for a steady burn.

 

So, I did some experimentation today with the 3M 08074 Trim Adhesive the engineering line recommended, and the 1/2" R-Tech styrofoam with the reflective foil on one side and the polypropylene on the other face.  I wanted to confirm the glue would not attack the poly (the foil actually has a clear polyprobylene layer over the foil) at all, and that it would be a solid choice for the following tasks:

 

1/2" R-Tech to cabover sleeper roof

R-Tech to 1/2" open cell foam

1/2" foam to Sail-Rite white hull liner fabric.

 

Total success!  The 3M did not attack the R-tech poly.  It gripped it so tightly, pulling the hull cloth off tore the foil layer off the foam core.  Same with the foam - tore the foil later.  And the foam to fabric was and excellent bond also - tearing off foam when separated.  So, I'm happy and the cabover ceiling will get 1/2" insulation, then 1/2" foam, then the white hull liner fabric.  

 

I also pulled down the braces holding up the last piece of mahogany ceiling panel and the edges are beautiful and it's solidly glued up there just like the others.  I can push up against the ceiling with full strength and nothing budges - not an eighth inch of flex, nary a creak nor squeak.  It's like a single monocoque structure behaving exactly as I'd hoped - deriving a lot of strength from the 11 aluminum beams and factory hand laid fiberglas 3/16" skin, and now obviously even more from the strong Owens foamboard and the mahogany.  Totally tickled.

 

I'm not even sure what I'm going to do next, but I'd like to paint the ceiling, then install the puck lights, fan and vent trims, and start using this upgraded lighting to continue working in there without the constant use of trouble lights, extension cords, etc in my way.  Then tear out the sleeper wall and ceiling panels and make that fresh and nice.  The front windows are leaking, so I feel like I need to fix them now. What's the best way to do that.  Looks like the seal has shrunk away from the fiberglass near the center line tight curves.  Do those go in with adhesive?  Anyone had success removing and resealing these?