Bad Vibrations

[Ritabago's Dad]

As opposed to "good vibrations."

Just made a trip down to Key West and began to notice an increasing vibration at highway speeds between 45 and 65 mph. It seems that the noticeably louder vibration has a cyclic quality to it, like a long repeated pulse or surge, but there is no adjustment in speed while using cruise control. The vibration was over and above the usual engine thrum, not only could I feel it through the floorboards and steering wheel, but I could hear it as well. So could my passenger on the way back. The vibration isn't present when idling.

On the way back from Key West, it seemed to be more pronounced. Today as I went to get new tires installed, I could even sense the sound as I accelerated from dead stop up to 45 mph on surface streets. There is a "winding up" nature to the tone and a "winding down" tone as I slow to a stop. The vibration, while running at 55 mph on the highway, seemed even louder today than yesterday. I'm at my Toyota dealership now, just having them look at it - but I'm keen on taking it elsewhere once I get their suggestions. (They also have to look at a recent repair that doesn't seem to have fixed a power-steering fluid leak.)

My initial research is pointing towards U-joints and bearings along the drive shaft. I was wondering what some of the members here might have to suggest, since I'm trying to avoid getting put through the ringer by the dealership again (based on past posts, I've been over-charged for quite a bit.)

Any help that you can offer is greatly appreciated. I know it would help to actually sit in the cab and see/hear/feel what I'm talking about.

Thanks!

[Ritabago's Dad]

UPDATE:

Okay, I'm kinda miffed here.

First of all, Toyota is saying that the vibration is coming from the idler pulley. It's a $120 part - which they don't have - and I've got to get to a gig tomorrow, so I'm going to deal with the vibration for the six-hour round trip and handle this next week. Good idea? Bad idea?

Second, I paid $1700 for them to fix a leak in my power-steering fluid system and now they're telling me that the leak is actually coming from a gearbox, a part that's not manufactured any more. Since this post is actually about the vibration, I won't elaborate here, but - seriously? I'll refill the fluid as needed. Do what ya gotta do, right?

[fred heath]

Sounds like you need a second opinion. Without taking a ride, I would check my front tires. What your describing sounds a lot like a "bubble" in the tread. When the plies break (usually from impact) a lump forms on the tread.

If not, waiter or JD will probably have the answer.

[zero]

UPDATE:

Okay, I'm kinda miffed here.

First of all, Toyota is saying that the vibration is coming from the idler pulley. It's a $120 part - which they don't have - and I've got to get to a gig tomorrow, so I'm going to deal with the vibration for the six-hour round trip and handle this next week. Good idea? Bad idea?

Second, I paid $1700 for them to fix a leak in my power-steering fluid system and now they're telling me that the leak is actually coming from a gearbox, a part that's not manufactured any more. Since this post is actually about the vibration, I won't elaborate here, but - seriously? I'll refill the fluid as needed. Do what ya gotta do, right?

A new idler pulley costs around $18. AC idler pulley is Dayco # 89039 and sells for $14. The Belt tension idler is Gates # 38036 and costs $18. Somebody is telling you stories.

If the idler pulley is making the noise it will NOT change with road speed. It changes by engine RPM and will make the noise even when not moving.

A noise that changes with speed is likely the driveshaft support bearing or a wheel bearing. U-joints to a less degree can also cause vibration and some squeaking for clacking noise.

[zero]

As opposed to "good vibrations."

Just made a trip down to Key West and began to notice an increasing vibration at highway speeds between 45 and 65 mph. It seems that the noticeably louder vibration has a cyclic quality to it, like a long repeated pulse or surge, but there is no adjustment in speed while using cruise control. The vibration was over and above the usual engine thrum, not only could I feel it through the floorboards and steering wheel, but I could hear it as well. So could my passenger on the way back. The vibration isn't present when idling.

On the way back from Key West, it seemed to be more pronounced. Today as I went to get new tires installed, I could even sense the sound as I accelerated from dead stop up to 45 mph on surface streets. There is a "winding up" nature to the tone and a "winding down" tone as I slow to a stop. The vibration, while running at 55 mph on the highway, seemed even louder today than yesterday. I'm at my Toyota dealership now, just having them look at it - but I'm keen on taking it elsewhere once I get their suggestions. (They also have to look at a recent repair that doesn't seem to have fixed a power-steering fluid leak.)

My initial research is pointing towards U-joints and bearings along the drive shaft. I was wondering what some of the members here might have to suggest, since I'm trying to avoid getting put through the ringer by the dealership again (based on past posts, I've been over-charged for quite a bit.)

Any help that you can offer is greatly appreciated. I know it would help to actually sit in the cab and see/hear/feel what I'm talking about.

Thanks!

My opinion (not advice) is . . . you need to find a mechanic that can be trusted and give your RV a good checking over. Fixing before something goes bad is usually cheaper then doing it after - in an emergency.

Any mechanic that has real skills ought to be able to diagnose your problem in a few minutes. Different failures make different sounds and they are hard to describe via a keyboard.

When vibration/noise problems pup up - they are usually from non-lubricated parts. That includes your driveshaft U-joints and center-bearing-support, and your wheel bearings.

In addition -the rear axle ring and pinion area that IS lubed a can be easily ruined by a bad mechanic installing a new seal back there. If noise ever shows up after getting a new pinion seal - that is often the problem. Caused by the so-called mechanic.

Like I said -hard to describe through a keyboard but I'll try.

Engine pulley-bearing. All but the AC compressor bearing turn anytime the engine is running and run at engine speed. So the higher the engine is revved - them more noise. The AC compressor bearing differs since it only turns then the AC is NOT on. When the AC IS on, it no longer turns. Obviously if there is an engine noise that goes away when you turn the AC on, that's the culprit. The idler pulleys usually can be fixed for $5 by just changing the bearing inside of them. Most shops do not do that since it's easier to just buy a new idler assembly. For $14-$18 I don't blame them. But the price you were quoted is rediculous.

Driveshaft - U-joints. On a Toyota they barely move at all. U-joints move more in driveshafts with steep angles. The Toyota driveshaft is almost straight. So when they go bad they get loose and dried out. They will tend to squeak, clatter then you change from forward to reverse, etc. If one is frozen from being dried out it can cause vibrations that can increase as you travel faster.

Driveshaft center-bearing support. This spins whenever the vehicle is moving. It is a common wear item and uses a sealed ball bearing that dries out. It will howl when bad and get worse the faster you go.

Wheel bearing. Front an back they are sealed and do not get relubed unless you take them apart and do so. Usually when a wheel bearing goes bad - it's on just one side of the vehicle and it will sound worse going around turns. It will also get louder and growl the faster you go. In most cases - all you need to do is jack a wheel off the ground and spin it by hand to detect a bad bearing.

Rear-end center-section. I've seen many get ruined by half-a*s mechanics putting in a new pinion seal. When done wrong and over tightened - the pinion bearing gets ruined. That results in a special sort of howing sound from the rear that gets worse the faster you go.

Rear-end ring-and-pinion gears. The rear axle is filled with gear lube. But if it gets run dry -even once - the ring and pinion gears get a wear pattern that makes an awful howling at certain speeds and is cyclic. I.e., it comes and goes. It migh howl at 55 MPH and if you let off the gas a hair the noise goes away.

[waiter]

My first guess would have been different tires with slightly different tire diameters setting up a cyclic vibration.

Did you get new tires and is the problem still there.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Totem]

tire sand if tires; got rid of my bad vibes. I think it was under the "equal" brand name

[5Toyota]

somebody may still have a reman stearing gear box. and yes i take the bearingout of the power stearing ideler pulley and press in a new one road vib could be bad u joints check for slop the very rear one one the diff seem to freze up had vib and clanking on my 4 w d from that droped driveline joint was froze up.

[Skydancer2992]

When the U-joint went bad on my 85 4Runner, it was a really bad vibration coming right through the floor boards. It became a jack hammer quality rather quickly and I was limited to about 5 MPH. I could visually see that the shaft was off center by about an inch. I had to get a tow as I was on the interstate.

My 91 Warrior, the U-joint was going very subtly. A vibration about 30 MPH that disappeared around 45 MPH. I had gotten new tires around the same time so I attributed to the Goodyears. I drove for about 5000 miles ignoring the vibration. One day, I was working on the fuel filter, which is under the passenger area next to the frame and I looked over at the U-joint and it didn't look right. Normally the arms holding the bearings are spaced every 90 degrees but the angle looked more like thirty. I reached over and shook it and the shaft rotated back and forth about +- 30 degrees. One of the bearings had fallen apart. All the connicle rollers were gone and the spline was eating into the bearing housing in both directions of rotation.

When I installed the new U-joint, there was no play at all. The drive shaft comes off easy enough. This job is worth taking the shaft to a shop and letting them install the new bearing. It took me about six hours because the spider refused to come free. It took a cutting wheel to convince it otherwise.

So, to check your U-joints, there is one at each end of the drive shaft, put your parking brake on and transmission in neutral. Crawl on your back and and with both hands to put some force, shake each U-joint and try rotating in either direction. They should feel solid with no play.

Advance auto parts had new spiders for $8.99 a piece. I'd already bought a Toyota one for $25 on Ebay.

[zero]

So, to check your U-joints, there is one at each end of the drive shaft, put your parking brake on and transmission in neutral. Crawl on your back and and with both hands to put some force, shake each U-joint and try rotating in either direction. They should feel solid with no play.

That works fine when checking for loose joints. But very hard to detect a frozen joint that way. Often the only way to tell for sure it to pull the driveshaft off, flex the joints and see how they feel. If not absolutely perfect, I'd replace the anyway. Small joints and easy to remove and replace at long as you have a big bench vise or a C-type U-joint press.

[Ritabago's Dad]

I appreciate all of the input - decided against driving my Toy to this gig and left it at Toyota. I had two new tires placed on yesterday (got 'em at Online Tires, Hankook RA08's - had them put on at Discount Tire) and the noise remained. It was definitely getting progressively worse. I know the Toyota folks are overcharging, but the mechanic is a good hardworking guy and I trust his opinion. He came to find me before I left and said, "I wouldn't risk driving it." If it was something I could get away with over time, I'd certainly have continued on and sought a second/third opinion. Bottom line is: if that vibration is still there when I pick it up on Sunday, I'll have some words with those folks.

Oh, and it's the timing belt idler pulley, if that makes a difference. I had the timing belt changed not too long ago and I'm wondering if there was any indication of stiffness, wear, etc., back then.

On the power steering fluid situation - I think I overreacted. The loss of fluid was MUCH worse before the "repair", so perhaps it was leaking from the hose as well as the gear box. I'm definitely on the hunt for a gear box now, but will refill as needed. It's not gushing, but definitely puddling.

Thanks again - I will post results on Sunday as we are heading out to camp for a couple of days. Your collective wisdom is much appreciated.

[5Toyota]

all good advice the guy that looked at my 4wd did not think it was bad at all tell we took it down and found the joint to be frozen. timing belt pully i take it you have a six

[zero]

I appreciate all of the input - decided against driving my Toy to this gig and left it at Toyota. I had two new tires placed on yesterday (got 'em at Online Tires, Hankook RA08's - had them put on at Discount Tire) and the noise remained. It was definitely getting progressively worse. I know the Toyota folks are overcharging, but the mechanic is a good hardworking guy and I trust his opinion. He came to find me before I left and said, "I wouldn't risk driving it." If it was something I could get away with over time, I'd certainly have continued on and sought a second/third opinion. Bottom line is: if that vibration is still there when I pick it up on Sunday, I'll have some words with those folks.

Oh, and it's the timing belt idler pulley, if that makes a difference. I had the timing belt changed not too long ago and I'm wondering if there was any indication of stiffness, wear, etc., back then.

On the power steering fluid situation - I think I overreacted. The loss of fluid was MUCH worse before the "repair", so perhaps it was leaking from the hose as well as the gear box. I'm definitely on the hunt for a gear box now, but will refill as needed. It's not gushing, but definitely puddling.

Thanks again - I will post results on Sunday as we are heading out to camp for a couple of days. Your collective wisdom is much appreciated.

RE: idler and tension pulleys on the engine. They all turn at engine RPMs and when bad, the noise will increase with engine RPM. Not road speed. In regard to the timing belt. No reputable mechanic is going to install a new timing belt without making sure all pulleys and tensioners are perfect. Either "like new" or new ones get installed. That is - unless the owner demands otherwise and signs some sort of "no warranty" agreement.

[Tundrawolf]

Hello friend,

Toyota might not be able to get the gearbox (Steering gear as it's sometimes called) but did you try Autozone? It's kinda rare that nobodie's making it. What are the specs of your vehicle? If I have a chance I'll look. In the meantime, perhaps you could try adding some Lucas power steering stop- leak.

As an alternative, it *is* possible that with a little thinking and elbow grease, you *can* replace the seals, if they are somewhat standard and available online. But it's a lot of work to take it out only to find out you aren't able to service it. However, what a lot of mechanics cannot, or will not service, I am able to service, so if you wanted to take it on I would assist you the best i could.

In the meantime, try adding some power steering stop leak, or a thick power steering fluid like Lucas so it doesn't leak out as fast.

Second, I thought for sure it was your Ujoints that had gone bad.

[Ritabago's Dad]

Yep - I have a 3V-ZE.

So, picked up my Toy Sunday and the vibration is still there. I'm glad Toyota caught the idler arm pulley (and why didn't they catch it when I had the timing chain serviced?) but they completely missed the vibration, which leaves me wanting to skip Toyota as I suss out this issue. Some reading online and comparing of symptoms has me still leaning towards wheel bearings and U-joints. So my next question is, do I have time to look around or am I in danger of having my driveshaft drop off? I know that's a tad dramatic, but I don't know how this stuff works.

Wherever I go, I'm going to insist on a mechanic ride-along.

Tundrawolf, where abouts are you located?

[Ritabago's Dad]

Driveshaft center-bearing support. This spins whenever the vehicle is moving. It is a common wear item and uses a sealed ball bearing that dries out. It will howl when bad and get worse the faster you go.

Wheel bearing. Front an back they are sealed and do not get relubed unless you take them apart and do so. Usually when a wheel bearing goes bad - it's on just one side of the vehicle and it will sound worse going around turns. It will also get louder and growl the faster you go. In most cases - all you need to do is jack a wheel off the ground and spin it by hand to detect a bad bearing.

Rear-end center-section. I've seen many get ruined by half-a*s mechanics putting in a new pinion seal. When done wrong and over tightened - the pinion bearing gets ruined. That results in a special sort of howing sound from the rear that gets worse the faster you go.

Rear-end ring-and-pinion gears. The rear axle is filled with gear lube. But if it gets run dry -even once - the ring and pinion gears get a wear pattern that makes an awful howling at certain speeds and is cyclic. I.e., it comes and goes. It migh howl at 55 MPH and if you let off the gas a hair the noise goes away.

Just took my Toy to a place and the mechanic suspects that it's the center bearing. He doesn't think it's the U-joints because he got underneath and gave them all a good shake; no clunking. Unfortunately, they didn't have a lift that could manage my Winnie, so I'm looking at a couple of other places that can handle the task. I also noticed yesterday that the vibration was more constant when going around corners, which you mentioned could be a sign of wheel bearings. At least everything is starting to narrow a bit.

Two questions: one, how much am I looking at for a center bearing and wheel bearings (if that is what the problem is.) Two, is this an issue that could lead to some kind of catastrophic failure of the driveshaft and/or wheels, or am I cool driving around town trying to find someone who can help me fix it?

Thanks for your help!

[Ritabago's Dad]

UPDATE: Gonna have the center support bearing replaced on Tuesday. The test-driving tech said it was either that or the differential, so I'm going for the one he was more sure of. If this doesn't fix it, I'm gonna have to hustle a bit in order to even afford work on the differential. Will have them look at the wheel bearings too. I'm looking at around $400 for the work at this point - which, if I'd taken it to Toyota, would've probably ended up being over a grand. Keeping my fingers crossed!

[5Toyota]

SHAKING the drive line shows slop OR NO SLOP they might be frozen up mine were on my 4wd truck took the drive line down the rear joint was froze up could not swivel at all. PERSONALLY I WOULD TAKE THE DRIVE LINE OUT AND HAND CHECK THE WHOLE THING ALL JOINTS BY FEEL FOR TIGHTNESS and the center bearing as well i base this on personal past exp .

[Ritabago's Dad]

Update: Tech swapped out the center support bearing, which he said was loose, but functional. Still have a vibration, though it seems to be occurring at a different speed range. Maybe this is foolish reasoning, but no-one who has worked under the vehicle has said that the driveshaft is loose or coming apart. So, I'm going to deal with the vibration for now. One thing that is clear, the vibration is stronger and more consistent as I'm driving on curved portions of road. I believe I'm also hearing more pronounced vibration when coming down highway inclines. The vibration sounds like rumble strips. Thanks for your continued assistance. Believe me, if I could slide under there and pull it myself, I would!

[Ritabago's Dad]

In the scenario where I'm looking at wheel bearings, what would I be looking for when I jack up the wheel and give it a spin? How much should a re-pack and lube on all four wheels cost? I think that's going to be my next direction, based on what's been suggested here.

[Totem]

i had bad vibrations at higher speeds. Tire sand cured them; apparently the RA08s get computer balanced at a different speed than 55mph. The tire sand auto balances at all speeds great and small or in our case small and smaller. Also I had valve extensions on rubber valves; replaced with factory brass valve extenders. cured road vibrations completely and let me tell you the car was Shaking at 55 and earthquake at 65+ prior to the "equal" brand tire sand and valve fixins in the rear dullies.

[linda s]

I had a terrible vibration in mine and had it checked out by the top rated frame shop in my area. They found nothing. Had all the tires rebalanced at wheel works. Well I finally took the rear wheels off myself and what do you know. One of them was no longer round. The belts had separated from the tire. No one else had a clue. After spending way too much money all I needed was a new tire. Problem fixed. I made wheel works give me my money back.

Linda S

[zero]

In the scenario where I'm looking at wheel bearings, what would I be looking for when I jack up the wheel and give it a spin? How much should a re-pack and lube on all four wheels cost? I think that's going to be my next direction, based on what's been suggested here.

I replied earlier but now can't find my post. If it shows up -excuse my redundancy.

When a wheel is off the ground and you spin it - it should feel perfectly smooth. Watch you don't mistake dragging brakes for giving a false reading. If you try to move the wheel fore and aft it should not be completely tight and not very loose. Just a slight amount of movement.

Front axles should take no more then 2 hours to repack and install one new seal per side.

Rear axles (duals) should take no more the 3 hours to repack both sides and install two new seals per side.

If new bearings are needed, it takes quite a bit more time. Old bearing races must be driven out and new ones driven in.

Rear driveshaft bearing costs $22 to $120 new and sometimes the cheapest part is the same part as the most expensive. Two hours labor max.

Anything that spins can vibrate if out of balance. Mud stuck on a wheel, an internal tire plie warped, etc. You need to ascertain when if there is a correlation between speed and vibration. Does it increase with engine RPM? Increase with ground speed? If the later does it matter what gear you are in? And as alread discussed - does it increase going around curves? If the latter - it is usually a wheel bearing.

[Maineah]

SHAKING the drive line shows slop OR NO SLOP they might be frozen up mine w.ere on my 4wd truck took the drive line down the rear joint was froze up could not swivel at all. PERSONALLY I WOULD TAKE THE DRIVE LINE OUT AND HAND CHECK THE WHOLE THING ALL JOINTS BY FEEL FOR TIGHTNESS and the center bearing as well i base this on personal past exp .

You are perfectly correct it will shake worse with a locked up joint then a loose one and make the center bearing flop around like a fish.

[Maineah]

As opposed to "good vibrations."

Just made a trip down to Key West and began to notice an increasing vibration at highway speeds between 45 and 65 mph. It seems that the noticeably louder vibration has a cyclic quality to it, like a long repeated pulse or surge, but there is no adjustment in speed while using cruise control. The vibration was over and above the usual engine thrum, not only could I feel it through the floorboards and steering wheel, but I could hear it as well. So could my passenger on the way back. The vibration isn't present when idling.

On the way back from Key West, it seemed to be more pronounced. Today as I went to get new tires installed, I could even sense the sound as I accelerated from dead stop up to 45 mph on surface streets. There is a "winding up" nature to the tone and a "winding down" tone as I slow to a stop. The vibration, while running at 55 mph on the highway, seemed even louder today than yesterday. I'm at my Toyota dealership now, just having them look at it - but I'm keen on taking it elsewhere once I get their suggestions. (They also have to look at a recent repair that doesn't seem to have fixed a power-steering fluid leak.)

My initial research is pointing towards U-joints and bearings along the drive shaft. I was wondering what some of the members here might have to suggest, since I'm trying to avoid getting put through the ringer by the dealership again (based on past posts, I've been over-charged for quite a bit.)

Any help that you can offer is greatly appreciated. I know it would help to actually sit in the cab and see/hear/feel what I'm talking about.

Thanks!

Does it sound like roller skates on the pavement? If it does I would be looking at wheel bearings most likely the the front ones they are far smaller then the rears..I also think I would be looking for a new repair shop.

[Ritabago's Dad]

Vibration's gone, thanks to Agner's Auto Parts in Orlando, though it was most definitely a team effort between this forum and a few shops around town. After taking it to one place, the mechanic swore up and down that it was just tire noise. They did notice that my new left front Hankook RA08 had a bump in it and they figured that was causing the vibration - but a test drive using my spare tire proved (to me, at least) that the "roar" was still there. I decided to head up the road to Boulevard Tire and they quickly ruled out the tires, but decided to pass on a bearing job to Agner's. The tech there jacked up the front end and immediately came back with "bad bearings", spinning the tires for me and letting me hear the results. A few hours later, I rolled out of there as smooth as you please. Thanks to EVERYONE here who weighed in and helped me to reach this successful point.