Kathy Laurin Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 My 88 Sunrader decided this is the year for water issues. I am wondering if anyone has replaced all the gray pipe with pex with the cabinets in place. Is it possible to do without an enormous amount of frustration and does anyone have any words of wisdom to share? I also have a bad valve on the city water fill and when I turn on my pump it is now leaking fresh water back out the valve at a pretty good rate. I don't use the fill valve as I am usually boondocking but I don't want to be losing fresh water. Any advice on where to find the replacement valve and what is involved in changing it out? I recently had a fresh water line crack and leak a substantial amount of water on the floor. I must admit, I had been thinking of tearing out the carpet. I wasn't quite ready but needless to say the leak necessitated action. I removed the carpet and the floor (once dried out) is in pretty good shape. I had to pull the converter to replace the broken pipe section. Since I have things somewhat torn out I am wondering about tackling the job of replacing the water lines before installing new flooring. Thanks in advance for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You can access most of your plumbing by removing the tops of the bench seats and the drawers in the closet. You might have to cut out a little of the closet wall to get to the back of the shower but maybe not. I haven't had to do it yet. There are special connectors to attach polybutylene to pex called sharkbite. Lots of people here have done it. Hopefully one of them will run you through the process Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Kathy did you not blow it out last fall. those sharkbite fittings work very good. all you have to do is make the ends square and shove them on. in some cases by pass an old pipe on both ends and just leave wither on the vine. do it before new floor. an rv store will have that valve but there may be a check valve on the pump that is causing that. I don't know for sure on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCRIPAL Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 BTW, the gray water lines were the subject of a class action law suit several years back. I believe this was the result of breakage in homes. I just replaced the line going to my toilet with a flexible cold water line which I bought at Lowe's. I had to place a 3/8" adapter to the gray line to make it work. The beauty of this set up is you can easily disconnect the line in the Fall and drain it for the cold winter months and not worry about water freezing in the toilet valve. Yes, the sharkbites are great! Lastly, vinyl wood flooring is functional and beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 BTW, the gray water lines were the subject of a class acion law suit several years back. I believe this was the result of breakage in homes. . The law-suit, or at least the fund, is still alive. It is aout households wih polybutylene pipe and non-crimped fittings. I just redid all the plumbing in a house here in northern Michigan that had it. The polybutylene pipe itself is fine and doubt could ever be an issue in a RV with crimped fittings and low water pressure. That being said - I just replaced most of my in my 1988 Minicruiser. It had frozen and broken so many times,and had so many splices - I decided to renew it. I used PEX along with a $20 hand-held crimper. Worked fine. Easy to do in a RV IF the old plumbing is flexible poly and not copper. For hidden areas - just cut one end of an exposed pipe - and tie it to new PEX. Then just pull it through the hidden areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCRIPAL Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I have found that the screw on fittings are actually more prone to breaking than the line itself. I have encountered this twice. This Fall, I am going to replace the hot/cold lines under the sink just to be safe. I am grateful I don't have this stuff in my home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 The problem with polybutylene supply pipes breaking is not so much a pressure issue as it is a chemical issue. Water with chlorinated additives will break down the composition of the pipe, causing leaks. It's now outlawed for use in the U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I am going to redo the plumbing soon with pex. So will be watching your progress. Is this the fitting you need? Has built in check valve. Left click to enlarge picture Ordered from Ebay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 The problem with polybutylene supply pipes breaking is not so much a pressure issue as it is a chemical issue. Water with chlorinated additives will break down the composition of the pipe, causing leaks. It's now outlawed for use in the U.S. No laws anywhere in the USA that make polybutylene "illegal" that I am aware of. Local plumbing codes in some areas do not allow new installs of it in domestic systems. Please prove me wrong if you know of even one such Fedearl. local, or Satutory law (since you mentioned it). PolyB is still made and used in Europe and Asia. A friend of mine just bought a house here in northern Michigan that was inspected first and found to have all polybutylene that was installed in 1984. Inspection report simply says that no leaks were found. Nothing about "tearing out illegal plumbing." I've repaired many a polybutylene leak since the late 70s and all were due to connector failures - bad fittings and/or bad crimps. I've yet to see a piece of pipe go bad or get "brittle" as a few unproved reports say on the Net. The house I mention that was just inspected uses heavily chlorinated water from the City of Alpena water supply and is now 31 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Easy answer "all knowing". Go out and buy some. Let me know how you doo. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Inspection report simply says that no leaks were found. Nothing about "tearing out illegal plumbing." When looking for a house in Florida I was shocked at how poor inspection reports are. House wired with extension cords was shown as possible electrical issues, contact electrician. Should have said fire trap, should be condemned or at least CO pulled until remedied. Maybe Michigan is different? Jim SW FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 PB-1 is not "illegal" It's grandfathered. Like aluminan wire, the problems didn't arrise until years later. I'm sure many 3rd world countries and some Michigan residents are oblivious to current laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Banned? Illegal? Whatever!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutylene#Class_action_lawsuits_and_removal_from_building_code_approved_usage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Derek, Put it your house. Good luck with your sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I can say I know what I am talking about because I bought new and live in a 1996 double wide manufactured home fully plumbed with gray polybutylene .I have never had any problem at all. But all the fittings are FLARE IT compression fittings. when we ordered the house we were told the aluminum crimp fittings they used to use were the root of the problem. be in it 20 years on clorenated city water this December. I have a coil I bought some years ago because I upgraded the sinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 two of my kids bought a 1978 and a 1980 both had the same pipe but had crimp on fittings with aluminum crimp rings . all you had to do was sneeze and the fittings were leaking . my dauter sold hers and my son replumbed his with pex and copper crimp rings . never had a problem. YES it is no longer sold at least in the u s. But I was told the problem was the fittings . I have seen the aluminum rings corrode out and leak in old mobile homes I have fixed with sharkbite fittings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Laurin Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Thanks for all the comments. I have decided to replace with pex (at least all that I can get to). I am gathering parts. I am having a difficult time trying to find the inline T drain valves. In regards to the city fill valve, thus far I can not find one that fits the Sunrader. I have to give some thought to possibly modifying it. You can buy the whole box and door assembly with the two valves attached for about $80.00 but the valve positions are reversed and that stark white box just wouldn't look good. I am still hoping to find a replacement valve that will work. In the meantime I decided on the $2.95 fix. I bought a screw in plug and think that will do the trick. As I took a much closer look under the sink I noticed my fresh water hose fill line to the tank looks to be getting pretty brittle near the fill valve. It would be much easier to replace that line with the water pipes out of the way. Hoping I can find some replacement hose tomorrow am. I will provide an update as I make progress. The one tool that would be great for this project is long skinny arms which unfortunately are not in my tool box :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 PEX is a great product wish you well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back East Don Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I am having a difficult time trying to find the inline T drain valves. I used these. You will find all sorts of types on Amazon under a search for 3 way pex valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrel Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 In my area all of those pex fittings are available at local plumbing store and rv centers. I recently replaced all of my fittings with pex and used some of the old gray line. No leaks and a perfect fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Easy answer "all knowing". Go out and buy some. Let me know how you doo. :-) I cannot go out and buy a brand new 1964 Chevelle either but not because it's "against the law." More because GM no longer makes it. Same with polybutylene and the fittings. The companies who made and sold it in the USA stopped. Note - YOU are the one who claimed it's illegal. Just asking you for a reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 PB-1 is not "illegal" It's grandfathered. Like aluminan wire, the problems didn't arrise until years later. I'm sure many 3rd world countries and some Michigan residents are oblivious to current laws. Seems you are the one a bit "consused" about laws, codes, etc. Aluminum wire is certainly still legal and I just installed a new, code approved 100 amp service with #2 URD/USE #2 aluminum. But yeah, I'm in Michigan and perhaps I'm "oblivious" to a certain law the you claim exists. If you know of such a law - why not just tell us what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Banned? Illegal? Whatever!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutylene#Class_action_lawsuits_and_removal_from_building_code_approved_usage There is a HUGE difference between something being "illegal' and something not approved under certain codes in certain applications. Even if you live in an area that has adopted certain building codes as local laws or statutes - it's just for certain types of uses and has nothing to do with RVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 My 88 Sunrader decided this is the year for water issues. I am wondering if anyone has replaced all the gray pipe with pex with the cabinets in place. Is it possible to do without an enormous amount of frustration and does anyone have any words of wisdom to share? I also have a bad valve on the city water fill and when I turn on my pump it is now leaking fresh water back out the valve at a pretty good rate. I don't use the fill valve as I am usually boondocking but I don't want to be losing fresh water. Any advice on where to find the replacement valve and what is involved in changing it out? I recently had a fresh water line crack and leak a substantial amount of water on the floor. I must admit, I had been thinking of tearing out the carpet. I wasn't quite ready but needless to say the leak necessitated action. I removed the carpet and the floor (once dried out) is in pretty good shape. I had to pull the converter to replace the broken pipe section. Since I have things somewhat torn out I am wondering about tackling the job of replacing the water lines before installing new flooring. Thanks in advance for any help. Great idea to upgrade to pex as if you ever get into another leaky pipe situation you can drive up to almost any hardware store and get the stuff you need to fix the leak. Go for the 1/2" pex as it is a lot more widely available versus 3/8" pex. Get push on fittings as you are going to be working in spaces too small for easy access with a crimping tool. When you start just work on one section at a time so you don't forget how it used to look. But before you begin make a diagram and a list of all the fittings you need and how many feet of tubing you will need. If you can't find a special type of fitting in the local store you might have to order it online. You will want to create a bypass for the water heater, used for winterizing with antifreeze, if you don't already have that feature. On my 1980 18' Sunrader I could get to all the waterlines without removing the cabinets. I can't vouch for all Sunraders of all years. You can purchase city water replacement valves at RV supply stores either local or online. Snap a photo of the one you have and you should be able to find a matching one to replace it. You will need to have on hand some butyl rubber tape to put under the fitting on the outside to prevent a leak that rain water can come though. Opt for a water inlet with a built in water pressure regulator. Having it built into the inlet means one less item to carry along and fuss with during set up time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 those are the same fittings used throughout my 96 double wide on the gray pipe I use them in my M H and will say they work great. I believe those are called flare it might be a brand name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Seems you are the one a bit "consused" about laws, codes, etc. Aluminum wire is certainly still legal and I just installed a new, code approved 100 amp service with #2 URD/USE #2 aluminum. But yeah, I'm in Michigan and perhaps I'm "oblivious" to a certain law the you claim exists. If you know of such a law - why not just tell us what it is. Bought any small gauge aluminum romex recently? That's where the problem was not larger gauge stranded wire. It was hateful junk and deserved to be banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 "Seems you are the one a bit "consused" about laws, codes, etc. Aluminum wire is certainly still legal and I just installed a new, code approved 100 amp service with #2 URD/USE #2 aluminum. But yeah, I'm in Michigan and perhaps I'm "oblivious" to a certain law the you claim exists. If you know of such a law - why not just tell us what it is." "Bought any small gauge aluminum romex recently? That's where the problem was not larger gauge stranded wire. It was hateful junk and deserved to be banned." I think you are both confused because is no aluminum wiring in the plumbing lines or fittings and the person who started this topic is seeking help for their problems with plumbing. Diverting their thread to debating laws about aluminum wiring diffuses their chance to obtain the help they need to prevent water damage. You know how emotionally overwhelming those things like plumbing leaks can be to new owners with no previous experience in RV plumbing. But aluminum wiring is a good discussion for the off topic area especially because there is also unlikely to be any in the Toy Homes electrical components either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back East Don Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 While the discourse gets sometimes off the point, at least it stays reasonably civil. I like that about this community. I have a great deal of respect for the knowledge base these two have but they clearly approach things from a different direction at times. Sometimes the details are rather minor differences and I'm left wondering if they get that they are often really not that far apart. The thing is when these two go at it, I tend to learn stuff from two pretty valid perspectives. Just different ends of the solution. I'm guessing they'll both hate even the idea of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Bought any small gauge aluminum romex recently? That's where the problem was not larger gauge stranded wire. It was hateful junk and deserved to be banned. Haven't seen any real "Romex" in many years. That was a NMB cable first made by a company in Rome, New York (thus the name ROMEX). But yes, the small aluminun NMC that came out during the height of the Viet Nam war had many problems. NONE were about the aluminum wire. The problems were all about poor installs, poor unsuitable connectors, etc. Aluminum wire is still very common in household and industrial wiring today. Just requires the correct connectors, anti-oxidant, etc. Many of the problems that were blamed on Polybutylene pipe were also about poor installs and unsuitable connectors. As far as using small wire for 15 or 20 amp circuits in a household? Any circuit that requires 12 gauge copper will require at least 10 gauge aluminum so the latter is MUCH harder to work with, stuff into small outlet boxes, etc. Who in their right mind would want to use it when copper is still reasonbly cheap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Good Lord! Give me a break! There are MANY RVs around that have polybutylene plumbing that are fine. Also many houses. Saying something like "polybutylene is illegal" can certainly give someone the wrong impression of reality. So I suppose some of us DO find the subject relevant to "plumbing in an RV." That's a big problem with the Net. Someone says something on a forum - and true or not - it gets repeated and repeated and then taken as gospel by some. To counter that sort of thing -it is sometimes useful to inject a few correct facts that are easily researched by anyone with further interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 My well used Toyota Sunrader has all original polybutylene plumbing. If and when it ever finally breaks down I will have to put in pex cause that's the only thing available now. My Nissan Sunrader which spent most of it's life in the bitter cold of Fairbanks Alaska only has one patch in the original plumbing cause the water heater failed and they didn't replace it. 28 years is longer than most vehicles are expected to last. Of course RV's don't have to handle the pressure that permanent homes do and home plumbing needs to last far longer than a motorhome Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I had to patch some broken polybutylene lines this spring in my Minicruiser. My fault, they froze. Nice thing is - I was able to repair with PEX crimp fittings. By the way - PEX is not "leak-proof" either. My in-law's house that was built in 1996 got several leaks this winter in the PEX "in-floor" heating lines. Not even high-pressure. PEX has had similar problems to what happened with polybutylene years back. PEX was common for years in heating but is somewhat new for domestic high-pressure use. There have been many failures with it - and again - most if not all being attributed to poor installs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action916 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Im new to this forum and won't allow me to create a new post since I'm new. I have 1988 Toyota Tioga Motorhome. The problem is when I fill up the right compartment kitchen sink and drain it, water will burst up/ overflow in the rear bathroom sink. When I fill and drain water from the left compartment sink, this doesn't happen. How do I diagnosis the problem? I'm guessing the air vent that connects to the right side plumbing of the sink maybe clog? Not sure how to test this but thought maybe I can get some help before I start taking things apart. If there is a thread I can post this, please direct me. Thanks again!! Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.