mountainmansteve Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Greetings Toyota Motorhomes and Dolphin Masters: My 1986 4 cyl 22RE motor with EFI is not starting as it did since I bought it 2 years ago When starting the engine, it seems as it is not getting the correct amount of air. Similar to a carburetor engine when the automatic choke is not working well. I hold the gas pedal down about halfway. It used to start immediately without holding down the gas. When it begins to start I am still cranking it until it catches enough to run This started about 6 weeks ago during my current road trip. Fuel filter was changed 6 months ago and air filter is serviceable. Your help is greatly appreciated Truly, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 How do the spark plugs look? I had an 86 that died on me in the middle of a cross country trip. Just wouldn't start one day. Turns out it just really needed a tune up. What regular maintenance have you done since buying it? It could very likely just need new plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 Hi Zach: Plugs, etc are in good shape. Full tune up, valves adjusted a few months ago. Thanks for your input. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Is this only happening after sitting overnight (stone cold)? What sort of temperatures where you are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Check for any vacuum leaks. You may want to look at the aux air valve.Look thru this link, John Mc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 Hi Derek Up North: This was happening in 0 degree weather in Colorado and 75 degree weather in San Diego, sometime after it was running for several hours it would start up more quickly, but still not the "turn-the-key-and-it-starts like it once did not so long ago. Thanks for your input. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 Hi John Mc: I don't see the link ou are referring to. Can you please repost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 Hi John Mc: I just did a good visual inspection of vacuum lines and found this one broken off. My pen points to where it broke from on the cannister ( no idea what it is) and where the other end of that goes on the engine. Again, the shots with the pen are close-ups and then a wider shot to show the location in the engine compartment. Does this new information give any better clues as to what may be going on? Truly, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 I found a vacuum diagram at autozone.com. The canister is a Charcoal Canister. Still investigating what this is and what it does. In the meantime, I used some locktite adhesive to re-attach the broken plastic piece where the vacuum line attaches. I don't need to run it today, so will allow the adhesive to cure. Any other insight is appreciated. I'll continue to post what I learn about this and, of course, if it resolves the problem. Thanks for your support, knowledge, and feedback. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Here is the link to the diagram, part of the emissions control vacuum system. http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairinfo/repairguide/repairGuideContent.jsp?chapterTitle=Vacuum+Diagrams&partName=Emission+Controls&pageId=0900c1528004d60c&partId=0900c1528004d55a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I think you are viewing the " vapor control canister"....this can holds fuel vapors in storage from your fuel tank & introduces them into the engine when all conditions are met...This operation is controlled by the processor (computer)....I'm not sure of your year, but if you have traced the line to the engine where your pen points in a following photo...pull the hose off at the engine & cap the nipple....see if it makes any difference...Are you getting any service engine lites on your instrument panel? Anything other than this starting problem getting your attention?........................................Donnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Steve, I think we were typing at the same time.........I'm leaving now & will check in later......Donnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 It is a gasoline vapor capture device should have no effect on your starting problem. You should not have to touch the gas at all for it to start and run smooth.Once started it runs fine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Sorry I missed the year in your original post, to much going on here. I agree with Maineah, you should not have to touch your throttle at all. Engine temp gauge working? Are you getting heat from your heater? Any hesitation when driving down the road...? If ANYTHING else seems out of whack, even if you think that it is not related, tell us ...static on your radio?....Donnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydancer2992 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Some items from the Factory Repair Manual, 22RE Troubleshooting for Hard Starting Check vacuum leaks: PCV hoses EGR valve Intake Manifold Air intake chamber Throttle body Check for air pulling in between air flow meter and throttle body. Spark Plugs, wires, ignition coil, distributor EFI system, mass air flow meter (check resistance with meter) Fuel filter clogged or fuel pump pressure low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 You have a big vacuum leak coming from the charcoal canister. (Its surprising how such a small leak is actually a big leak) You can attempt to use JB Weld and glue the fitting back onto the canister, but make sure the adhesive doesn't plug the port. If you want to test, seal the hose where it goes into the intake plenum. Either use a small piece of hose that's plugged on one end or double the existing hose over on itself to pinch it closed. You can probably run like this, worst will be setting an ECM trouble code for a purge fault. Why are vacuum leaks so critical on EFI engines? The Mass flow sensor (MFS) measures the air that is being sucked into the engine and passes this information to the Electronic Control Module (ECM). The ECM then opens the fuel injectors based on the air flow and throttle position. The problem is, when you have a vacuum leak, the MFS doesn't see all the air entering the system and opens the injectors based only on the air it sees. Depending on the severity of the leak, the fuel/air ration will be way off (should be about 14/1), especially at low power settings. With the vacuum leak, you'll get a lean Fuel air ratio. This is aggravated if its cold when you need a very rich fuel air ratio. The Aux Air valve that I mentioned is also critical. If its jammed (dirt buildup) or defective. this can cause a hard starting problem. Here is the link I referred to, but I would take care of the vacuum leak before proceeding any further. http://toyotamotorhome.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5697 John Mc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Once started is it staying running or shuddering until you get it goi g? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budders Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 It am thinking it might be the fuel pressure regulator. We used to see the screw vibrate out of the middle of it and cause the issue you are speaking of. This causes the fuel pressure in the return line to bleed back into the tank and the fuel pressure has to build back up before it starts. There should still be a cap on the regulator that has caught the screw, so be careful pulling it off to inspect and put some lock tight on it so it doesn't happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Waiter has the answer. Same exact hose broke on my Nissan when I was bringing it home from New York. On the road so I just went crazy wrapping everything with rescue tape and made it home fine. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Continued my investigation this morning and found an excellent resource to help me understand the role of this charcoal canister in particular and the Emissions Evaporative Control System in General. Check out this link http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h62.pdf More soon, as I am going under the hood to have another look at these components. Truly, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hi stamar: It seems to run fine once running. But, when it is trying to start as I continue to crank it, sometimes it catches fairly soon once it try's to start firing, other times when I release the key it dies and I have to start cranking it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hi Donnie: Nothing else going on with the running engine, heat works fine. Temperature runs normal, however sometimes when first running for the day the temperature will rise to above halfway briefly then go back down to about 1/4 where it normally runs. This, I think is the way the thermostat is working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hi Maineah: Once running it is OK. Planning to put vacuum line back on first before trying anything else. Changing only 1 thing at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hi skydancer2992: Thanks for the troubleshooting checklist. Do you know a good source to obtain this repair manual? Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hi Waiter (John Mc) I used an Loctite Adhesive on the broken fitting yesterday (~18hours ago). Concur to reattach this first before trying anything else. Great information. Will post what happens next. Truly, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Do you know a good source to obtain this repair manual? Stephen 1985 FSM on-line:- https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B_1LbTxQDmlVYmRkZTE2YjItODUzYS00NDUxLTk0ODUtYTYxYjZiYjk4ZTA5&export=download Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 GOOD NEWS! Fixing the vacuum leak has significantly improved starting. The first start took about 8 seconds of cranking, but did not have to give it any gas. I let it run until thermostat opened and shut it off. The next start took about 3 seconds, again without giving I any gas. However, as with the first start, there was some rough firing for about 1 sec, but ran smoothly immediately after that. I took the Mighty Dolphin on the road next, and initially it sputtered for the first acceleration through first and second gear, though not in third. The next acceleration had the same result, but after that smooth running on further accelerations though all gears. I ran it up to 75 mph on the freeway for a few miles and stopped to top off the fuel tank (want to check for gas mileage improvement). It takes slow gas pumping to get filled up, so The MD came down to below operating temperature (thermostat closed). This next start was about 2 seconds of cranking with only a couple of sputters before catching and running smoothly. I shut it off and started it a few times after getting back to operating temperature, and it fired without sputtering. At this point I think the primary issue of cranking a long time before starting is solved.. However, I had been running this way for about 2000 miles, so it may take some time for the charcoal canister to recover fully; it is still not starting in less than 1 second as it did before this problem. Also, the Loctite Adhesive may not hold.........so I want to replace the charcoal canister if anybody has a source for one of these vintage 1986 charcoal canisters. What years would work? And finally, I am grateful for the, once again, unbelievable wealth of knowledge and freely sharing of it through this forum! I am in the Central Valley near Modesto, CA visiting friends and my home base of Evergreen, CO is long way from here. Thank You! Truly, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Derek Up North: Thanks for the link to the repair manual. Truly, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 One thing to do, remove the ECM fuse for about 10 minutes (or disconnect the battery for 10 minutes)This will reset the Fuel Management tables in the ECM and force it to rebuild the tables. They are probably corrupt from the vacuum leak.The truck may run like crap for the first few miles as the ECM relearns the fuel mixtures. The re-learning can take several start/stop cycles and the engine must be at operating temperature. Just drive it normally.Check E-bay for used charcoal canister.Buy a tube of "4 minute JB Weld" Its a 2 part epoxy and is perfect for making the repairs you just did Keep it in your spares box, with duct tape. John Mc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 If sending your ECM back to school doesn't do the trick, maybe check your plugs. They might have become fouled while your engine was running rough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I'm gonna add a bit here, if your fuel consumption was a bit excessive for a while while this condition was taking place, your processor was seeing a lean condition, (too much air) & telling the processor to add more fuel, which, as others have noted, MAY have sooted (Is that a word) up your plugs. AND YOUR O2 sensor....Driving it should clean up everything....To qualify this, pull the easiest plug to see how it looks...Drive it a while & see if it relearns, if the starting problem is cured, but it still feels a bit uncomfortable...change your plugs & O2 sensor....The O2 sensor's will get lazy & still operate, but poorly, enough to not set a code, but not well enough to keep the mix a required levels.....This is one item that almost everyone overlooks, but the processor depends on it intensely once the engine warms up to temp..The coolant sensor will tell the processor when to take information from the O2 sensor & control your mixture......Donnie Everyone, please forgive me for calling the ECM a processor, or computer as I learned in "on board diagnostics"...long before OBD II was introduced in '96...The explanation for the difference ; ECM, TCM, etc is not really needed for this discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi Waiter: Your last post helps, a lot. As I continued to drive yesterday it took longer to start, especially when cold. I removed the positive battery cable a few minutes ago and will wait at least 10 minutes before reconnecting and taking a drive; driving normally. The JB Weld is a good tip as well, thanks, I'll find some. Duct tape is a standard staple in my box of goodies........ I'll check in on the results of resetting the ECM. Truly, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi Donnie: Good stuff, thanks. Will pull a plug and have a look. This is something I was thinking about doing, but it slipped my mind. Truly, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmansteve Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi Derek Up North: Does the 1985 service manual cover 1986 ( the year of my Dolphin) as well? Truly, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I'd suspect that there would be, at most, very minor changes between '85 and '86 manuals. The only FSMs I know of on the net are '85, '88 & '93. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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