NO compression on 1 & 2 DEATH RATTLE!

[Gatorbob]

Bringing my recently purchased Sunrader in for State Inspection all seemed to run well. I called to check on the progress and they told me I had a Death Rattle!. Of course I rush over in dis-belife and what do you know. Got it into the service bay but would not stay running. loud knocking. Oil is clean, no smoke, no leaks, Mechanic pulls valve cover and looks like a clean engine with just 25k miles which it is. No apparent damage to the visible valves. Oil pressure is a little high but no compression in 1& 2. They are not equipped to do deep engine work at this shop so he had no bore scope. I guess just drop the pan and look for metal is the next step to assessing the damage. Any thoughts out there? 1986 4 cylinder 22-R E.

[Totem]

Bringing my recently purchased Sunrader in for State Inspection all seemed to run well. I called to check on the progress and they told me I had a Death Rattle!. Of course I rush over in dis-belife and what do you know. Got it into the service bay but would not stay running. loud knocking. Oil is clean, no smoke, no leaks, Mechanic pulls valve cover and looks like a clean engine with just 25k miles which it is. No apparent damage to the visible valves. Oil pressure is a little high but no compression in 1& 2. They are not equipped to do deep engine work at this shop so he had no bore scope. I guess just drop the pan and look for metal is the next step to assessing the damage. Any thoughts out there? 1986 4 cylinder 22-R E.

is this Original or a reman engine? I have the exact same year engine though I had 60k miles on mine. I don't think I would have bought one much under that; too much sitting around on something that old means a sharp amount of wear and tear unless they properly long term stored the motor which most did/do not (i.e. removing plugs and spraying oil in the cylinders)

[Gatorbob]

This is the original Engine. I understand it was sitting since 1998. It seemed to only need minor renovation and the engine has been running well since I bought it a few weeks ago.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Gatorbob

[Totem]

from 1998 until 2012 so thats like 14 years with no lube and possible corrosion since it was last run; not to mention it physically had to have sat for a similar period of time if it only had 25k miles on it.

First thing I would have done after buying would be oil change to full synthetic for at least the next two change cycles (mobile 1). I'm sure you prolly did that though.

Prolly got eaten by ethanol residue decay.

[WME]

The head has got to come off, 99% of the time no compression between two adjacent cylinders means a blown head gasket. With the head off replacing the timing chain, guides and chain tensioner is the way to do things.

[Maineah]

That is not the usual place where the head gasket normally leaks but that does not mean it can't. If you lose compression in side by side cylinders it usually means the gasket is leaking between the two. The noise could well be the compression trading cylinders Off with it head!

[Totem]

I agree with both ^

[Gatorbob]

I did not use synthetic oil. The visible parts were very clean. I did suggest to the mechanic the blown head gasket between the two. He thought it would put out atleast some pressure. The mechanic even said he was impressed with how clean it was under the valve cover. I'm kind of hoping it's that "minor" compared to DEATH! Thanks for the great support. I was having a bad day.

[WME]

Rose colored glasses checks. With rocker cover off check the chain guides, you can see them with a flashlight. Dirty old oil can plug the tensioner, resulting in a bad rattle, broken chain guides can do the same (factory guides are plastic.

With both valves open on a cylinder blow compressed air in spark plug hole, then adjust valves.

Good luck

[zero]

I did not use synthetic oil. The visible parts were very clean. I did suggest to the mechanic the blown head gasket between the two. He thought it would put out atleast some pressure. The mechanic even said he was impressed with how clean it was under the valve cover. I'm kind of hoping it's that "minor" compared to DEATH! Thanks for the great support. I was having a bad day.

Much of the oil sold in the USA as "full synthetic" has NO synthetic oil in it. The USA and Canada are the only two major countries in the world where it is legal to sell highly refined petro-oil as "synthetic." So, don't lose any sleep over it. They both lube the same anyway when used at the temps they are rated for. In fact, some oils sold as conventional HD oils have flash points that exceed many so-called "Synthetics."

No compression - suddently on two cylinders is not a common occurence. My first guess would be something broken in the valve-train up above where you can see it once the valve cover is off. Damage down below in pistons and cylinders rarely results in NO compression unless the pistons actually break - or get disconnected from the crank. Engine valves are usually the cause of zero compression readings.

[zero]

Bringing my recently purchased Sunrader in for State Inspection all seemed to run well. I called to check on the progress and they told me I had a Death Rattle!. Of course I rush over in dis-belife and what do you know.

You got me thinking of a similar event I witnessed a few years ago. Keep in mind that bringing in a good running engine for a routine inspection and then getting a phone call about a "death rattle" and two missing cylinders would make me a bit suspicious as to what might of happened when I wasn't around.

I was working in a shop where an old guy brought in his perfect running Pontiac with a V8. The mechanic doing the "routine service" work on it was revving the engine up with the air cleaner off - just to see how it sounded and check for any high engine skips, smoke, etc. Well - the mechanic dropped a tiny little hex nut down the carburetor throat. Just a tiny nut. He could not fish is out with a magnet since it seemed to have dropped into the intake manifold. So what did he do? He decided to rev up the engine again in hopes of sending the little nut out the exhaust. So, he revved it up and instantly broke two pistons. Completely shattered. I was the guy that wound up rebuilding the engine later. When he revved it - it rattled something awful for just a second or so and then -it was all over. When I pulled the one of the heads off - I had two connecting rods staring at me with no pistons left at all.

I'm not saying that's your problem nor am I blaming anyone at the repair shop. I am saying though - that if it were me - I'd be suspicious. If the engine ran good when you brought it in for "routine work" I doubt it had a catastrophic failure all on its own. I also doubt age or how long it sat at one time had anything to do with it.

[Totem]

Mobile one is full synth (of that type). i wouldn't say that of any other or for that matter pay extra for any other brand.

keep us updated on what the culprit was for sure.

[5Toyota]

the only thing i ever had happen on a toyota was head gasket unless the head is corroed out eaten up from setting with bad antifreze i have seen that. NOW IF THAT WAS A DATSUN NISSIAN THEY USED BRONZE VALVE SEATS. in the ALUMINUM HEAD AFTER VERY HIGH MILES THE SEATS HAD A HABIT OF FALLING OUT.MY B210 DID AT 140.000 . never heard of it on a toyota thou.

[zero]

Mobile one is full synth (of that type). i wouldn't say that of any other or for that matter pay extra for any other brand.

keep us updated on what the culprit was for sure.

According to the company that makes it - i.e. Mobil-Exxon, Mobil 1 is NOT a true synthetic oil. It is made from petroleum that comes out of the ground.

Last I checked - when it comes to non-racing oils for the average consumer - Amsoil is one of the few companies still offering true synthetic oil and even some of their oils are not.

Synthetic oil was first made popular by Hitler during WWII. It was made from synthetic chemicals. The the US military adopted it and used in in Jets due to synthetic oils high tolerance to heat (Flash Point). When WWII was over, a military guy started a company selling true military synthetic oil to the public - and that was Amsoil.

The big advantage to true synthetic oil is stable viscosity and high heat tolerance.

It has been made legal in the USA and Canada to change the meaning of the word "synthetic" when it comes to marketing oil.

The following is from the Mobil 1 Website and material data section. Note that Mobil admits it is made from petroleum and is NOT synthetic by the real definition of the word.

"There are two basic types of engine oil available:

Conventional mineral oil and synthetic motor oil , which is steadily gaining popularity among auto manufacturers and consumers. Both types of engine oil are made from crude oil that comes from the ground. The difference is that synthetic oils undergo numerous additional highly-advanced distilling, refining, and purification processes — and therefore are of a higher purity and quality than conventional mineral oils."

[Gatorbob]

It's been sitting at the shop since Sunday. They tried to start it on Monday and that's when they got the Death Rattle. So what I know to date is no compression in cylinders 1 and 2. oil pressure is a little high. No other visual problems with the valve cover off. They are going to refer it to another shop that does major engine repair. In the meanwhile they will install my new tires (7), replace the brakes, replace the muffler, fix the fuel guage, repair the clerance lights, and basically get it so it will pass state inspection with the exception of the engine related issues. You only get a 30 day window to repair a car in Maryland for inspection. I'm about half way through that.

[Totem]

bleh at the old Mobile one dino bashing argument. Us Merc owners have gone round and round on that and depending on which one you use and what its rated for its just fine and far better than 14 year old dino. Mobile one is seeding dino then making into synthetic; is just fine by me; its the google hecklers that had issue with it in USA/Canada. Any guy that's sent it off for testing will tell you it comes back better than most others. I use Amsoil in my sleds though; good stuff and wouldn't mind using it in a toy; just harder to find.

[zero]

bleh at the old Mobile one dino bashing argument. Us Merc owners have gone round and round on that and depending on which one you use and what its rated for its just fine and far better than 14 year old dino. Mobile one is seeding dino then making into synthetic; is just fine by me; its the google hecklers that had issue with it in USA/Canada. Any guy that's sent it off for testing will tell you it comes back better than most others. I use Amsoil in my sleds though; good stuff and wouldn't mind using it in a toy; just harder to find.

What I'm talking about has little to do with "good" or "bad." More about what "is" and what is "not." The word "synthetic" has specific meaning. So did "synthetic oil. " Now in the USA and Canada, it does not.

"Oil" in regard to use in internal-combustion engines was coined as a reference to petroleum. "Synthetic Oil" was coined as a phrase that denotes oil that is synthesized and not based on petroleum. I.e. not natural or genuine; artificial or contrived, prepared or made artificially. To call motor oil that is made from petroleum is misleading. Thus the reason why it is not legal to do so in most countries.

I assume what matters to most people is what the stuff actually does regardless of what is called. I meet many people using oil sold as "synthetic" and they have no idea what gain it is actually supposed to provide over oil sold as "petro" oil.

To the average car and light truck driver - there is very little difference. True synthetic oil has a very high Flash Point. That is the highest temp oil can reach before it turns to useless sludge. Very important in some aircraft and on the ground -racing and HD engines. A true synthetic often has a Flash Point of 435 degrees F or higher. I know of many HD conventional oils that have higher Flash Points then oils sold as "synthetic."

A few examples:

Castrol Syntec - Flash Point - 392 degrees F

Valvoline Premium Blue synthetic - Flash Point - 392 degrees F

Mobil 1 synthetic - Flash Point - 428 degrees F

John Deere Plus-50 HD Synthetic - Flash Point - 446 degrees F

Amsoil Premium 3000 synthetic -Flash Point - 439 degrees F

Shell Rotella 40W conventional HD oil - Flash Point - 460 degrees F !

When it comes to motor oil - especially in a Toyota with flat cam followers - the amount of ZDDP is a lot more important the wether it's called "Synthetic" or not. All newer engines have a lesser need for certain anti-wear additives so they've been lessened in most oils sold for normal highway use. It lets the emissions systems and O2 sensors last longer. Since just about all newer engines have roller lifters and extremely durable materials in critical wear areas - they can get buy with the lowered anti-wear additives. Not the case with an older Toyota. Unless you carefully read the data sheets - most oils do not have the ingredients that are best suited for older engines. Racing oils, off-road and HD oils, and most diesel motor oils do. Also, stuff like Mobile 1 "extended mileage" oils have the higher anti-wear additive levels. I tend to just use Shell Rotella T in all my cars and trucks.

[Gatorbob]

Death Rattle Update. With Inspection center unable to repair, I had it towed to Toyota. WHY??? The biggest problem with getting this fixed was finding a shop with the right lift!. Thinking the worst, I was planning on having to replace the engine. Going from shop to shop everyone had a different opinion. Rebuilt, Reman, Used ... they all had there pluses and minuses. Desperate, I decided to check with my local dealer. I bought my Corolla there and they are easy to work with. Believe it or not, they had the best price on engines. I guess my luck was beginning to turn with the service manager. He introduced me to his ace mechanic. This guy knew his stuff. (later I found out he is best mechanic in the county) Sometimes you just get that feeling about it when you get the right guy. Just from the description I gave him, he diagnosed the problem. Yesterday he brought me in to see the problem. Blown head gasket ( no water) and 2 bent valves.Carbon build up. No new engine required. He is going to personally do the job, and other stuff while it's out to increase horse power and fuel efficiency. After market air intake, all new belts, water pump, thermostat, all new valves, replace old hoses and other expired parts. Hope to be on the road soon. Right now I'm in for $3,500 purchase, $700 installed tires, Shocks, brakes, lights, lube, and a bunch of stuff $1,300. total $5,500 before valve job. Ouch! (Don't tell my wife)

[Vanman]

jdemaris"
Also, stuff like Mobile 1 "extended mileage" oils have the higher anti-wear additive levels. I tend to just use Shell Rotella T in all my cars and trucks.

I called the 1-800# for Mobil 1 and they told me with my RV and mileage to use the High Mileage ( over 75,000) oil. Is that what you were refering to? I ask because they also make an oil called something near that but it's meant for extended oil changes. The high vehicle mileage Mobil 1 is only carried around here at the one O'Reilly parts store on Geary Blvd. No one else stocks it seems.

What do you use in your Toyota V6???

[zero]

I have a 2.2 four-banger, not a V6 in my Toyota.

The Mobil 1 for vehicles with over 75K miles has a level of ZDDP in it similar to what was the norm in oils before 2009 going back to the 50s. Shell Rottella T "Triple Protection" diesel oil also has a high level of ZDDP. ZDDP (zinc, phosphorus,etc.) is an additive package for metal wear and important for any engine with flat lifters or wear caps and camshaft. That includes all the older 4 cylinder Toyotas. I don't know about the Toyo V6. For newer cars and trucks (after 2009 as I recall), the anti-wear package was lowered to make the emmissions systems last longer. Since all the new engines that I know of have roller lifters or hardened slides along with super hard metals in other critical areas -they do fine without the high level ZDDP. GM and Ford switched to roller lifters late 80s to mid 90s. Don't know when or what Toyota with their overhead cams. Most over-the-counter motor oils now have a lowered level of metal-wear protection unless it's oil rated for racing, or diesel engines. or off-road equipment. There are exceptions like the Mobil 1 blend made for rigs with over 75K. Whatever you have - extra ZDDP can only help unless you've got a 2010 or newer emissions system. The idea that new oils are "better" does not hold true for older engines.

What bent your valves?

jdemaris"
Also, stuff like Mobile 1 "extended mileage" oils have the higher anti-wear additive levels. I tend to just use Shell Rotella T in all my cars and trucks.

I called the 1-800# for Mobil 1 and they told me with my RV and mileage to use the High Mileage ( over 75,000) oil. Is that what you were refering to? I ask because they also make an oil called something near that but it's ment for extended oil changes. The high vechile mileage Mobil 1 is only carried around here at the one O'Reilly parts store on Geary Blvd. No one else stocks it seems.

What do you use in your Toyota V6???

[zero]

Death Rattle Update. With Inspection center unable to repair, I had it towed to Toyota. WHY??? The biggest problem with getting this fixed was finding a shop with the right lift!. Thinking the worst, I was planning on having to replace the engine. Going from shop to shop everyone had a differant opinion. Rebuilt, Reman, Used ... they all had there pluses and minuses. Desperate, I decided to check with my local dealer. I bought my Corolla there and they are easy to work with. Believe it or not, they had the best price on engines. I guess my luck was begining to turn with the service manager. He introduced me to his ace mechanic. This guy new his stuff. (later I found out he is best mechanic in the county) Sometimes you just get that feeling about it when you get the right guy. Just from the description I gave him, he diagnosed the problem. Yesterday he brought me in to see the problem. Blown haed gasket ( no water) and 2 bent valves.Carbon build up. No new engine required. He is going to personally do the job, and other stuff while it's out to increase horse power and fuel efficiency. After market air intake, all new belts, waterpump, thermostat, all new valves, replace old hoses and other expired parts. Hope to be on the road soon. Right now I'm in for $3,500 purchase, $700 installed tires, Shocks, brakes, lights, lube, and a bunch of stuff $1,300. total $5,500 before valve job. Ouch! (Don't tell my wife)

Your situation got me thinking about the bent valves. Did your mechanic mention if the valves were all too tight (lack of clearance and not closing) ? I ask because I got a gas engine in my shop recently (not a Toyota) that had 4 bent valves and zero compression in two cylinders (out of four). The problem was caused by valve-seat recession. That is caused by valves basically wearing their ways into the cylinder head until they hold themselves open. Rare in a modern engine. It can be corrected if the valves get adjusted periodically. In this case the valves overheated and warped. Technically a "warped" valve is bent but usually gets that way from being overheated instead of from mechanical damage. Was very common years back during the leaded to unleaded fuel changeover mid 70s. Modern engines have very hard valves and valve seats and for them it is not a problem.

[linda s]

Death Rattle Update. With Inspection center unable to repair, I had it towed to Toyota. WHY??? The biggest problem with getting this fixed was finding a shop with the right lift!. Thinking the worst, I was planning on having to replace the engine. Going from shop to shop everyone had a different opinion. Rebuilt, Reman, Used ... they all had there pluses and minuses. Desperate, I decided to check with my local dealer. I bought my Corolla there and they are easy to work with. Believe it or not, they had the best price on engines. I guess my luck was beginning to turn with the service manager. He introduced me to his ace mechanic. This guy knew his stuff. (later I found out he is best mechanic in the county) Sometimes you just get that feeling about it when you get the right guy. Just from the description I gave him, he diagnosed the problem. Yesterday he brought me in to see the problem. Blown head gasket ( no water) and 2 bent valves.Carbon build up. No new engine required. He is going to personally do the job, and other stuff while it's out to increase horse power and fuel efficiency. After market air intake, all new belts, water pump, thermostat, all new valves, replace old hoses and other expired parts. Hope to be on the road soon. Right now I'm in for $3,500 purchase, $700 installed tires, Shocks, brakes, lights, lube, and a bunch of stuff $1,300. total $5,500 before valve job. Ouch! (Don't tell my wife)

I don't know what year your sunrader is but provided it has a full float axle and in good shape Sunraders are selling for 8 grand and up. 25,000 miles on the engine would get even more. Even when your all done your still ahead of the game. Tell your wife it's an investment. I paid 6000 for mine almost 9 years ago and can sell it in a heartbeat today for 8 or 9 grand

Linda S

[Gatorbob]

It's a 1987 Sun Rader with a 1986 toyota 4 cylinder . pick up truck. Carbon build up was causing the valves to stick. very small ding in piston head.

If any has a photo of the two batteries and where they are located, that would help a new issue. I got it with just one battery under the hood on the front passanger side. I'm just not sure if that "battery compartment" is big enough for the camper battery too.

[Maineah]

If you feel comfortable with him he is the one you should use. You most likely have another compartment in the rear for the coach battery there were not many that put both batteries up front. The compartment should have some type of venting arrangement in it making it a bit easier to spot.

[Derek up North]

I believe only MHs with the 22R had the 'house' battery under the hood. The 22R-E (with fuel injection) didn't have enough room.

[waiter]

Is the 22 R or RE a zero clearance engine???

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Derek up North]

I think so. I seem to remember Tony on the Yahoo Group who had his timing chain break and it messed up all his valves,.

[linda s]

Turtle Mike has a 92 Sunrader with the v6 and his coach battery is under the hood. Depending on the floor plan some have the coach battery behind the rear storage bin or where it would be. Should be a door back there. Under the sofa. Keep looking it's there somewhere. Mine has a battery door on the drivers side near the front of the coach. I have seen some back farther near the storage/generator compartment

Linda S

[Derek up North]

I stand corrected. I thought that all the extra FI air ducting under the hood left no room for a 2nd battery.

All these different battery locations; they're all in 18' Sunraders? They never standardized the location?

[Derek up North]

Are you sure that Turtle's Sunrader left the factory with the 'house' battery under the hood?

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-campers/message/128103

[linda s]

Are you sure that Turtle's Sunrader left the factory with the 'house' battery under the hood?

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-campers/message/128103

Weird. I wonder who's rig I'm thinking of. Oh well no I'm not just talking about 18ft Sunraders. My friend Mark has a v6 rear bath and his is on the back. I was going to post some pics of battery boxes in other places but for some reason I can't post any links. Well I found some on a Sliverada on the passenger side in the rear. Some on the drivers side in the rear. All depends on floor plane and year.

Linda S

[Gatorbob]

The Sunrader I have is a 1987,21 ft, rear bath all fiberglass on a 1986 toy pick up 4 cyl. 22R-E. Under the hood there is a large, almost "L" shape battery box. The existing top post truck battery seems to not be what was intended for that space. I believe it was just put there to get the engine started. There are two positive battery terminals leading to the box and one negative. This is why I believe both batteries belong in this large fiberglass box. But what batteries? The mechanic thought it to be odd that they would be together. The state inspector wants them secured in the box. I was hoping someone else has this type of set up. I can't post a photo since the engine compartment is currently disassembled. My ace mechanic says he will follow the wires. He has also recruited the help of a team member with RV experience. TIP! Feed the shop! Doughnuts and Pizza keeps your mechanic happy. I always reward superior service, it goes a long way.

Remember, this Sunrader has not been used since 1998. It had 1998 registration on the tags. I had to cut away vines that grew into it. It was filled with mice and snakes. All 7 tires were dry rotted. It was damp and moldy.The white exterior was Black with algea. PERFECT!. I had vision. When I first saw it, the engine was purring like a kitten. Every single tech manual was in it. 90% of the interior was in excellent condition. I'm in rebuild mode now, replacing anything that needs to be replaced.

[waiter]

Gator, sounds like a good find.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[zero]

If you do some rewiring - keep in mind that if you want to install an inverter in back to run DC appiances - the aux battery also have to be in back.

[zero]

If you do some rewiring - keep in mind that if you want to install an inverter in back to run DC appiances - the aux battery also have to be in back.

Typo (or keyboard-o). I meant to say "AC" applicance.