High altitude vs 21ft. 22R 4 speed toy

[aptruncata]

I originally purchased this unit for our trips up to the eastern sierras.

Having taken the unit out on 3 trips so far (all coast driving/camping), I'm having real doubts whether it would be wise to even attempt the climbs to 5,000ft + elevations. to give you some numbers....

My home is set at about 1,500ft above sea level.....4 hour steady climb is to about 4,500ft.

From there it can be 7,000-10,000ft within 20miles depending on destinations.

Are there anyone on the forum who lives at a relatively low altitude and has driven their toy up and through the mountains and back without a carb adjustment? or going faster than 25 mph?

I haven't planned the trip yet for all the obvious reasons but would like to know if anyone can give advice or share their experiences.

Thanks

[zero]

My home is set at about 1,500ft above sea level.....4 hour steady climb is to about 4,500ft.

From there it can be 7,000-10,000ft within 20miles depending on destinations.Thanks

Any engine without an altitude compensator (turbocharger) loses 1% power for every 333 feet above sea-level. A 95 horse 2.2(rated at sea level) has around 90 horse at 1500 feet and only 80 horsepower at 5000 feet. I haven't had to suffer those climbs with a Toyota but have with several other vehicles.

[5Toyota]

i have only been to 4500 not higher in my 20r minimax prev moterhome but i had a webber carb i felt the webber gave a little more power been all over wyoming and too denver in a 20r station wagon not near the wt of a moterhome tho. had to third gear it a lot in the minimax going up east side of white pass on highway 12 in wa st.

[WME]

http://groups.yahoo....start=1&dir=asc

Maybe this will help answer some questions. 22RE/ Automatic.

[linda s]

http://groups.yahoo....start=1&dir=asc

Maybe this will help answer some questions. 22RE/ Automatic.

The big diference here is the 22r compared to the 22re. The fuel injection can compensate for the altitude better. I often go from 400 ft in San Jose to the Sierra's and have no problems. Can stay at least at the speed limit on everything but the steepest grades. I do have the shorty Sunrader and it weighs less than yours so it does make a difference but the biggy is the fuel injection

Linda S

[zero]

The big diference here is the 22r compared to the 22re. The fuel injection can compensate for the altitude better.Linda S

Electronic fuel injection along with the many sensors hooked to the computer cannot do anything in regard to replacing the "missing" air the engine needs at high altitudes. It can adjust for less oxygen by varying timing and lowering fuel delivery to match the lesser oxygen coming in which results in a cleaner burn and less emissions. It cannot replace the lost power. The only fix for thin air is to artificially ram more in and/or to raise compression. Some gas powered aircraft engines use special super-high octane gel fuel to help compensate. A Toyota engine needs a fixed ratio of oxygen-to-fuel. When run at high altitude it gets less air and therefore - runs too rich and wastes fuel. A carbed engine can be rejetted if always driven up high. An engine with EFI can adjust on its own - run cleaner - but still lose near as much power as a carbed engine.

[aptruncata]

@linda

do you happen to know the weight of the shorty vs the 21ft?

[linda s]

@linda

do you happen to know the weight of the shorty vs the 21ft?

My shorty weighs 5000lbs empty but last year I went to Tahoe with it pretty loaded up, maybe close to 5600lbs. Yeah it's got a little less power up there but still ran fine. Just gets going slower. Drove up to Tahoe on route 20. Curvey back road. Still got 15mpg. I've gone to Reno many times, Mammoth Lakes a couple so over Tioga pass. I just go. If anyone behind me is pissed cause I can't fly, it's their problem. I do use pull outs if they are not on a steep incline. Would never get it going again. Have done a few 4x4 only roads too and managed to get through. Stupid but fun

Linda S

[Maineah]

The EFI engines can and do compensate for altitude but cannot make up for the air pressure loss there will be power loss but not nearly as much as an engine with a carb. Adjusting a carb for altitude really is not possible without dismantling it and changing the jets and it's not worth it unless you live at high altitude. Carbureted air craft have mixture adjustable carbs they use either exhaust temp or air fuel ratio meters to get the systolic mixture correct. As slow as the Toy home is I don’t think you would notice a great deal of difference or would it be worth the effort to deal with it the only real fix is a turbo and EFI.

[Bob C]

I have had my 22RE to 7500 ft. Our traveling weight was about 6000 pounds. As to how the altitude affected it, at 700 ft it is a turtle, at 7500 ft it is a little bit slower turtle. When you measure half mile acceleration times with a calender, does an extra day really matter?

[zero]

The EFI engines can and do compensate for altitude but cannot make up for the air pressure loss there will be power loss but not nearly as much as an engine with a carb. Adjusting a carb for altitude really is not possible without dismantling it and changing the jets and it's not worth it unless you live at high altitude. Carbureted air craft have mixture adjustable carbs they use either exhaust temp or air fuel ratio meters to get the systolic mixture correct. As slow as the Toy home is I don’t think you would notice a great deal of difference or would it be worth the effort to deal with it the only real fix is a turbo and EFI.

From the test specs I've read - the power loss is near the same for a carbed engine or an EFI engine. The EFI engine however can change the timing and cut back on the fuel delivery so the air-to-fuel ratio stays correct and the engine does not run too rich. If a carbed engine is rejetted then it too can run efficiently but only at a fixed altitude. On some air-craft, a special fuel is used that can enable an engine to use a different air-to-fuel ratio and make better power with less oxygen. The same is sometimes done with diesels by adding acetone to the fuel. Diesels suffer as much as gas engines at high altitudes and all diesels are fuel injected. Carbed engines and mechanically injected diesels have a few controls for high altitudes - but not much. Toyota uses an altitude sensor that changes engine timing. Special pistons also have been used for gas engines being run at high elevations. John Deere and International Harvester used to sell "5000 ft" and "8000 foot" pistons to install in engines that only got used in high elevations. I had a John Deere 2020 with 5000 foot pistons and tried using it here (1800 feet). Even with high octane fuel it had awful detonation.

[Maineah]

The efi can adjust the mix and timing with engine management that in it's self has an efficiency factor a carb engine will run rich reducing it,s efficiency even more hence hp. loss The pressure at sea level is greater requiring less effort by the engine to pull air in then it does at altitude I know there is cutoff altitude for piston air craft beyond that a turbo would be required for any increase in altitude

there requirements are of course different there is less drag and they can lean the engine out to save fuel by gaining altitude in essence that is what the efi does by baro sensors and O2 sensors. Air craft engines require a high octane fuel to deal with high cylinder temps to reduce detonation it's not a good thing to hole a piston at 13000 feet and leaner mix does not help.

[DanAatTheCape]

I have been out there a number of times with a V6. I hear you can clear the passes in 4 cyl but.... you can burn up your tranny/ engine ... UNLESS you stop often to let things cool down - remember 70 degrees at 6,000' is like a very hot day at sea level - your turtle will be working hard but it can do it - with a lot of patience.

[aptruncata]

to put all this advice in one sentence: Don't take your 1984 21ft 22r carburated 4speed up to the sierras.

thanks!

[zero]

It's not just a problem with carbed engines. Fuel injected gas and diesel also.

My son took my 1987 diesel Chevy Suburban from my place in NY to his place in Colorado. 1800 foot elevation to a 6000 foot elevation. Here in NY it got a best of around 19 MPG. When he got it to Colorado it got a best of 15 MPG and ran awful (very little power). It wasn't long before he cracked both the cylinder heads climbing hills. Too much unburned fuel due to too little air results in extremely high cylinder head temps. He put new heads on the engine and then found out he could not pass the Denver-area emissions test. It's an infrared test for smoke under load. He finally had to buy and install a turbocharger just to pass inspection and make it legal.

[Bob C]

If it was my trip I would take the MH. Slow down, use a lower gear. Enjoy the scenery. I have had my loaded Chevy Caprice to the top of Mt. Evans, 14,264 ft. It lost power but got to the top without problem. I can't tell you what to do, but I would go.

[linda s]

Yes I agree with Bob.Just go. I have seen tons of oldies in bad condition putting around up there. If they made it so can you. Friend near me is in her 70's and goes to the mountains every year in her 82 Dolphin. You say you have only made trips to the coast. If your having power problems at sea level maybe you need to have your rig checked out. Where are you. Just wondering cause there are slow incline ways to get up in them thar hills. 395 from the south is a good one. From the north 80 is the best way to go. Inclines not too steep and 4 lanes most places so others can get around you. Just don't get freaked out when you step on the gas and it seems like nothings happening. It will go eventually.

Linda S

[Anthony in Tahoe]

@linda

do you happen to know the weight of the shorty vs the 21ft?

I weighed my 21ft and it was 5460lbs

[Eve "n" Stephen]

We recently moved from the Oregon coast (50' elevation) across the Cascade mountains, just north of Crater Lake, over a 5900' pass. We've made 4 trips with the 18' Sunrader, one pretty heavily loaded, with no problems. It's a little slower on the steep spots, down to 40 mph for a couple miles and several miles at 35-40 that were steep and curvy. We wouldn't have gone faster if level! It never ran any hotter than normal.

We now live at 4200' elevation and I suppose I should adjust the carb somewhat leaner up here.

Steve

[Stevo]

Steve, is your 18' Sunrader a 4 spd or 5 spd manual or an automatic?

[Stevo]

Hi Karin, I'm not sure if you deleted it yourself but whatever you tried to post here is gone.

[Eve "n" Stephen]

It's an automatic, thank goodness! Why? We go on a lot of forest service roads and campgrounds where .5-1 mph is just about top speed in spots with deep potholes! Lot's of clutch slipping to do that with a 4 speed!

Steve

[mini-wini-dan]

I just drove my 86 22rec efi from PA to where I am now at the border of Nevada and Utah. It did die on me a few hours ago while coming to the border. It completely shut down on me. I had a flashing "check engine" flashing in patterns of 5 blinks and a pause. This went on for about 20 minutes as I was approaching Wendover and the Bonnaville Salt Flats exit where I pulled off to see what was going on. It died on the exit ramp and I went back and ate dinner while it cooled down. I noticed it was going slightly past the halfway point on the trip through Utah from Salt Lake City. I struggled climbing many hills but it ran ok. After it cooled I drove it and it seems to run normally while cool. I think it shut down due to passing the heat threshold. It was over 100 degrees while I was driving from Salt Lake City.

A friendly fellow who worked at the gas station where he witnessed my problem informed me that my anti-freeze solution is probably too weak. He also noted that the carb may need to be adjusted for high elevation (4200) where I am now. I was in areas where it was above 7000 I think. I believe today's problem was due to running too hot since I have never seen this vehicle running above the half-way point on the gauge.

[waiter]

Your EFI will automatically adjust for higher altitude.. You cooling system sounds OK. When its cool out my temp gauge willl hang around 1/3. when its hot, it seems to hang around the 2/3 point.

Your problem does however seem to be heat related.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Stevo]

Just curious for the sake of comparison because my Sunrader is also an 18'er but has the 22R with 5 speed but I've hardly driven it since the day I bought it earlier this year because I've been rebuilding it.

It's an automatic, thank goodness! Why? We go on a lot of forest service roads and campgrounds where .5-1 mph is just about top speed in spots with deep potholes! Lot's of clutch slipping to do that with a 4 speed!

Steve

[elefthera]

I have an 87 NovaStar with the 22RE Automatic. Going to take it from San Diego to Michigan...plotting out the route now, seeing how to minimize the elevation I'll have to contend with.

[waiter]

Your going to do a couple climbs and operating in high altitude regardless of the route. I've traveled this several times a year. I always like to take a slightly different route. If I was trying to get there, and wasn't horribly interested in the scenery, I'd probably take this route.

I-8 > I-10 > Las Cruses New Mexico > US70 > Alamogordo NM (stop by White Sands) > US54 > Santa Rosa NM > I-40 > I-44 > I-70 > I-75

I call this the southern route, Generally avoids climbs and snow. but you'll be in the HOT if your doing this in the summer.

John Mv

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[elefthera]

Thanks, John. I have been looking at that route. Only question I had was how best to get from Las Cruces to I-40. Also, what do you think about going up to Flag and catching 40 there? Too much?

[waiter]

If you want to go that way, get on NM26 in Demming and it cuts the corner to I-25, if you pick up I-25 in Las Cruces, you back track.

I like going thru Alamogordo, I was stationed there in the 70's.

When you get to Las Cruces, jump on US 70 (east) drive thru town, and head toward Alamogordo. When you get to the top of San Augustin pass, get your camera ready as this is the most beautiful scene looking out the east /s east.

If you plan your trip right (or wrong) you'll get stopped on US 70 while they launch a rocket. (yes, they close the road about 2 hours before any launch)

Plan on spending a few hours at White Sands National Monument, and drive out to the white sand dunes. Neat place to have lunch and just climb on top of a dune and sit there for an hour or two.

When you get to Alamogordo, take US-54 toward Carrizozo/Vaughn/Santa Rosa, This is two lane, but is fast and enjoyable ride. Make sure to fillup with gas before leaving Alamogordo.

NOTE - The Walmart at Alamogordo is a nice place to overnight. Its off the main drag and reasonable quite.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[elefthera]

John, we made it to Michigan using that route. The San Augustin Pass was the only challenge. Guy in Alamogordo told me it is worse going the other direction. How would you make the return trip? I'm debating taking I-40 to Flagstaff and then coming down to Phoenix. Not sure what the elevation challenges would be from Alb to Flag. Other option is to go down to El Paso and then to Tucson, bypassing the mountains.