Why a Toy vs. others?

[aptruncata]

Hello folks,

I would like to know what your reasons were for purchasing toy vs. any other rv and size?

For me lot of it was financial; reliability, ease of repair, availability of parts, value and my needs (wife and two dogs)....i also considered mpg but if i had a choice, i'd trade off the mpg for more power.

These reasons were obvious enough for me to pick the toy over...say a 26ft tiagoa but what's yours?

btw....before i purchased one, i've reads somewhere sunrader's were leak proof....but found out that was far from the truth.

[waiter]

mpg, size, reliability.

I bought mine specifically to drive to Alaske, and all the way up to Prudhoe Bay. It had to be reliable, but cheap enough that if something catastrophic happened, I could walk away from it.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Totem]

Where are your leaks from the AC/roof Vent holes?

I looked at about 10 RVs before the Sunrader and found this forum after I woke up owning it.

I test drove several Econoline, Astro and other van based class C's. they all got like 6-8 MPG, were noisy and very hard to navigate city roads and backstreets with.

My most reliable vehicle of any I had owned was a toyota celica; it had so few issues and ran me to work and home for over 11 years.

I almost pulled the trigger on a unit that had a slide out and was 26 feet long. It was huge ford econoline 1991. It looked pretty good and had a generator etc.

But when I roof walked it (which they said was ok) my foot went right through the balsa wood and cheap corrugated fiberglass. I quickly pulled it back and scrambled back down. I had seen some Sunraders online and have owned fiberglass boats in my day and am good with Gelcoat repair. One day one popped up in Craigs list from a stealership and I pulled the trigger. It felt like driving a top heavy pickup truck in the test drive and was exceptionally quiet. All of the other rigs I test drove rattled and banged around like a Sendai apartment building. I hate rattle noise etc so to me part of it was the lack of noise. Perhaps this is a feature on all small RVs but if you are sacrificing size you may as well get great MPG. Toyota fit the bill. Plus, my daughters love them.

[Derek up North]

Sunraders probably would be leak proof, except they ended up punching holes in the shell for windows, lights, vents, etc, etc just like any other MH. The only advantage they have is lack of seams between the walls and roof and there's no structural use of wood to rot after it leaks (unless you want to count the floor, which seems to be a weak point in Sunraders).

[Totem]

funny, I was just going to say the only disadvantage the others have is the seems and the floors and the overhead cab bed flooring and the lamination.

[aptruncata]

I have a roof sag syndrome which will need to be address next summer.

I didn't know those big econolines got 6-8 mpg...i was thinking more along the lines of 12mpg which isn't too bad if it could back it up with some power up the hills, but i guess not.

[Derek up North]

Should have got a V6!

....i also considered mpg but if i had a choice, I'd trade off the mpg for more power.

[waiter]

mpg was a big factor in selecting the Toyhouse for our Alaska trip. Figured we would burn about 1000 gal of gas at about $4.50 per gal (just under $5000) That number would double if we got a Ford, GMC or Dodge.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[zero]

I didn't know those big econolines got 6-8 mpg...i was thinking more along the lines of 12mpg which isn't too bad if it could back it up with some power up the hills, but i guess not.

A friend of mine comes to NY in his Econoline conversion van every years. Not really what I'd call a Class C. Just a 1995 E250 3/4 ton raised roof HD conversion van with water, heat, a bed, etc. inside. 302 V8. He's gets 14-15 MPG on his trips. Works well for two adults and a dog.

[zero]

Hello folks,

I would like to know what your reasons were for purchasing toy vs. any other rv and size?

For me lot of it was financial; reliability, ease of repair, availability of parts, value and my needs (wife and two dogs)....i also considered mpg but if i had a choice, i'd trade off the mpg for more power.

These reasons were obvious enough for me to pick the toy over...say a 26ft tiagoa but what's yours?

btw....before i purchased one, i've reads somewhere sunrader's were leak proof....but found out that was far from the truth.

All my kids are grown and gone with kids of their own - except my youngest who is now 9 years old. We want to take him for a drive from NY out west to see his brothers in Colorado. Also want to show him the west coast and maybe even Alaska sometime.

Price of fuel is the big one for me. I'm not really sure if Toyota is the best choice or not - but we'll see. I'm making mods to a Chinook in hopes of getting near 20 MPG. I'm not sure the big 21 foot high-roof Toyotas are much better then other alternatives. But since I do not own a big one - I only guess from reports I've heard. On average with Toyota 21 foot bodies and high roofs on long trips I assume get maybe 15-16 MPG in good conditions at 55-60 MPH?

For comparision of campers I already have:

My 1992 Dodge 4WD HD 3/4 ton extended cab truck with an intercooled turbo 5.9 liter Cummins diesel - with a slide-on camper (with pop-up roof) can get near 17 MPG at 75 MPH. But diesel fuel is often much more then regular gasoline. My 1994 Ford F250 extended cab truck with a turbo diesel 7.3 liter Navistar (IH) engine with a 10.5 high-roof slide on camper gets 15 MPG at 75 MPH.

My 1986 Chevy 4WD Blazer Chalet (Chinook) camper with a turbo 6.2 diesel gets a best of 16 MPG at 75 MPH.

My 1983 Chevy 4WD Blazer diesel pulling a 21 foot high-roof camper trailer gets a best of 13 MPG at 75 MPH.

My former 1973 Champion Class A Dodge-chassis motorhome with a 318 gas V8 got a best around 6.5 MPG at 65 MPH (I don't think 75 MPH was possible). A real dog. One trip to Canada and I sold it.

I mention 75 MPH a lot because I'm back and forth to Michigan quite often and the main highway requires at least 75 MPH or people start tailgating you.

Price of campers has little to do with it for me. Class Cs and Class As are a dime-a-dozen where I live once they get a little old. I've seen many for less then $1000 in running condition. I've been offered a few big Winnebago with 440 engines for free. No thanks. Little Toyotas are very rare around here.

A good friend of mine who just turned 80 still drives to NY every year and camps for a month in a camper on some farmland he still owns. He lives in Florida and is constantly experimenting with campers. He says that some of the RoadTreks are the best on mileage but very expensive. It's not what he's driving. He does have an old 70-something Transvan, Dodge based Class B I think. He says that thing can get 13-14 MPG on a long road trip with the 318 V8.

I figure that if my Toyota Chinook - or for that matter, any Toyota camper - can get 16 MPG - I'm doing better then with my diesels. Gasoline is cheaper in most places and much easier to find in some rural areas. Right now in my town, regular gas is $3.70 per gallon and diesel is $4.36 per gallon.

[aptruncata]

A friend of mine comes to NY in his Econoline conversion van every years. Not really what I'd call a Class C. Just a 1995 E250 3/4 ton raised roof HD conversion van with water, heat, a bed, etc. inside. 302 V8. He's gets 14-15 MPG on his trips. Works well for two adults and a dog.

i can picture that...but then again, we do appreciate the extra wiggle room.

if and when my ambitions lineup with my resources, i would love to put the shell over a gmc or international dually.

but in the meantime 3rd gear at 40mph over a hill will have to suffice.

[WME]

26 ft Georgie Boy w/GM 454 Vortec. 6000+mi, 30 days. 9.7 mpg at 65 mph. Mpg penilty offset by room and big water and holding tanks. Three days with 3people.

[Bob C]

My wife and I discussed what we wanted in an RV before we started looking. MPG, reliabiltiy, ease of driving, parts availability were very important. I looked at several different RV's and decided that the Toy was the only choice for us. We found one only 80 miles away and after driving it, we asked the owner what her best price was to drive it away. The Toy needed a few repairs but it was off the shelf stuff. She gave me a great price and I did not hesitate to buy. My 5' 3" wife is not intimidated by the Toy in any way, she will jump in and drive (including backing up) at a moments notice. We have taken a few great trips and look forward for many more.

The grandkids love going on short tri[s with us and are asking where we are going next summer. Another bonus, grandkid time that THEY enjoy and ask for.

[stamar]

Its mostly reliiabilty. I would not trust an american made vehicle this old.

Its next the perfect size. Although still a lumbering ox it can be your grocery getter and only vehicle.

Thirdly were at a point in time where they stopped selling ones like this, thhey just don't exist even uused.

From 93 to 99. Eqiivelent camper vehicles just don't exist. There's a very rare eurovan rialta but its super uncommon and probably a bad buy. Iif money is no object a volkswagon rialta is attractive

So you have a hard edge to the market of these things and I forsee them being on the rise.

When the sprinter vans with the high tops finally get cheaper those will be hotter. By then these things will finally be too old too.

[5Toyota]

having owened several of the legenedery 20 rs and no desire for a full size moterhome the toyota realy interested me when my frend gave us the 1978 minimax because my wife is disabled and can not tent now we loved it and it fit in our small drivway. a year ago we bought a nice 1987 DOLPHON . AT THE KOA WE PARKED BESIDE A LARGE CLASS A HE SAID HE HAD NOT TOOK IT OUT IN TWO YEARS BECAUSE IT GETS 5 FIVE MILES TO A GALLON. ON THE TOYOTA YOU HAVE A REAL HOOD LOT BETTER TO SERVICE IT.THE 22RE HAS ALLPOWER WE NEED.I NAMED OUR DOPHON JUST RIGHT.

[sdboltdude]

$$ and gas mileage was huge

#1 reason has to be reliability of the 22re

i'm fine going 50-65 mph

and has enough room for me the dog and one or two other friends

[90toydolphin]

mpg and small enough to be easy to drive.

[Dolphinite no longer here]

I like small things that do the same job as big things...

[Vanman]

So she says "lets go and visit Kimme" and I say that's all the way to Idahoe, lets stay home. And she says well we have to go up there to pick up the RV she bought.

Say what???

We get there after 2 days driving and it looks in bad shape. The hood paint is so oxydized it looks like 600 wet/dry emerypaper. But it buffed out and looks great. Toyota paint as good as the rest of it. After much work almost finished.

vanman

[bufbooth]

The Pickup truck chassis was the main reason, never liked the Van chassis, too much engine

noise and heat in the cab. Second was that it was a Toyota and the MPG. Parts are easy to find just

about anywhere, and you can park them in car spots.

[zero]

i can picture that...but then again, we do appreciate the extra wiggle room.

if and when my ambitions lineup with my resources, i would love to put the shell over a gmc or international dually.

but in the meantime 3rd gear at 40mph over a hill will have to suffice.

The same friend of mine with that Ford Econoline conversion van also has a big Ford Class C based on an E350. Dually wheels, 27 foot, 460 engine, etc. He says if he keeps the speed at 60 MPH or less -from Florida to NY he's gotten a best of 8 MPG but 7.5 MPG is the usual.

[zero]

Its mostly reliiabilty. I would not trust an american made vehicle this old.

Nobody can tell you what to trust or not to trust. That being said there are many US vehicles built just as rugged and more. My 87 Chevy diesel Suburban has 480,000 miles and the engine has never been apart (trans and rear has though). My 1992 Dodge diesel truck has 260,000 miles and the engine,clutch and trans has never been touched.

An issue with 80s USA stuff is you have to pick and choose. Some was great, some was awful. Most was big and heavy when used for motorhomes. The only smaller RV rigs that are USA based (that come to mind) are a few Chinooks and Bandits on Chevy S10s and a Chevy/GMC Astrovan Class C RV which is rare but I've heard a great little Class C.

I had a 1985 Toyota pickup with the 2.4 that was well cared for, never worked hard, and burned a quart of oil at every tank of gas by the time it had 100K miles on it. I've got a 2002 Subaru with the same problem, yet my 1995 Subaru with 260,000 miles doesn't burn a drop. Sometimes it's a crap-shoot. One winter we had a morning when it was 35 below 0 F. My 1985 Toyota was the only vehicle around (with a carb) that started.

When I worked for a John Deere dealer - back in 1983 - we bought a new Ford Ranger for a "micro" service vehicle. The cheapest model with a small 2 liter four cylinder engine and a four speed man trans. We overloaded it with tools and a small crane and beat the heck out it. By 120,000 miles it burned oil but had not had one major parts failure. A lot of small nuisance stuff though.

With Toyota -here are a few things that make them special in my opinion. One - many parts were almost standardized and didn't change constantly. Also, Toyota is the only small truck I know of that offered a HD full-floating rear for carrying heavy weight. If you had a Chevy S10 or a Ford Ranger you'd have to fabricate your own. I'm not sure about Datsun/Nissan. They do make some heavier dually trucks and I don't know how easy the parts swap. One other thing that Toyota and Datsun were famous for . . . you didn't get the many small nuisance problems that most USA stuff was plagued with.

My father-in-law was a engineer for Ford Motor Company and told me how Toyota drove them crazy during the 80s. Ford tried very hard to copy some of Toyota's practices and replicate their reliability. Ford even had a special "Robustness" program made just for that task. He told me that Ford found that . . .; if a Ford was maintained to the book it could have reliability similar to Toyota. But many owners do not do that. I KNOW that one is true. Toyotas were known to hold up very well when NOT taken care of, while Fords could not handle it near as well.

By the way - remember when the Chevy LUV mini-truck first came out? A logger friend of mine bought one brand new, first year. The LUV was actually made by Isuzu. He quickly hated the truck and abused it something awful. By the time he had 100K miles on it, it had NEVER had an oil change. It burned oil but still ran like a clock. He finally junked it due to rust.

I suspect an older small RV based on a Chevy S10/GMC S15 - or a Chevy Astrovan or GMC Safari would have similar longevity, fuel mileage, and parts availability to any Toyota RV as long as only manual trans versions were chosen. Such RVs though are very rare.

[Bob C]

I had a Chevy Astro Van with AWD. I loved that van. I drove it from WI to NC with the cruise set at 80 mph. I stopped when I was 350 miles from home because I didn't think the gas gauge was working. I was getting 22 mpg. I thought that it was a mistake but that is what I got all the way there and back. The poor van finally went to the scrape yard when I loaned it to my daughter's fiance to help her move. The oil light went on about 50 miles from home but he thought that it would not hurt it to drive that distance. It turns out that the rear oil seal in the engine let loose. The engine was making noise when he drove into my driveway and never started again. When I checked, it had almost no oil in the engine. He will NEVER drive another vehicle of mine even they are married until I quit driving.

If I could find a motorhome built on an Astro, I would buy it.

[Derek up North]

Like these?

http://montreal.kijiji.ca/c-autos-et-vehicules-VR-caravanes-remorques-VR-Safari-Condo-Junior-SC-2005-W0QQAdIdZ429725273

http://montreal.kijiji.ca/c-autos-et-vehicules-VR-caravanes-remorques-VR-Astro-Condo-Junior-W0QQAdIdZ425084064

[fred heath]

I picked an older model by choice. (1978)

My toy is small 16'. 20R engine with 4 speed trans. It had 95K orig. miles and all the paperwork from the original owner. I like the fact that it has a carb, no computer,not even a factory cat.

Being an old shade tree mechanic I love how easy everything is to get to.

As I plan to do no camping, I gutted all the appliances, keeping only the heater and a/c. I stripped the coach down to the ribs, replaced all coach wiring, and rebuilt the inside to my preference for storage space for my tools and clothing. My toy does have an Onan 2800 with 45 original hours of run time.

My first long trip was 1450 miles. I averaged about 23 mpg at 55mph. I plan a long U.S. road trip at the end of Dec. Can't wait to get started.

[zero]

I had a Chevy Astro Van with AWD. I loved that van. I drove it from WI to NC with the cruise set at 80 mph. I stopped when I was 350 miles from home because I didn't think the gas gauge was working. I was getting 22 mpg. I thought that it was a mistake but that is what I got all the way there and back. The poor van finally went to the scrape yard when I loaned it to my daughter's fiance to help her move. The oil light went on about 50 miles from home but he thought that it would not hurt it to drive that distance. It turns out that the rear oil seal in the engine let loose. The engine was making noise when he drove into my driveway and never started again. When I checked, it had almost no oil in the engine. He will NEVER drive another vehicle of mine even they are married until I quit driving.

If I could find a motorhome built on an Astro, I would buy it.

I saw a small Astrovan "Allegro" RV in the Adirondacks last summer and really liked it. Looks like a really neat small RV. The owner was parked at a lake and out fishing. I never got a chance to ask him/her a million questions. I've been looking for one every since IF priced reasonable.

That being said - my wife and I had a 1995 AWD Astrovan with the 4.3 liter V6 and called it the "van from H *ll." We DID buy it from a local church. The absolute best fuel mileage we ever got was 19 MPG but 14 MPG was the usual "all around" mileage. I bought it because I knew of a company that owned a fleet of them and they held up very well. Note that mine was a 1995 which was the first year of the awful new "tarantula" fuel injection system (not throttle body and not sequential). I won't go into all the details but that van was constantly having problems (had 140,000 miles on it). I finally gave it away to young guy with lot of little kids. Wouldn't you know it? He took his family cross country with it from NY to California and back and not one single problem! Oh well.

I've been told that the 2WD Astro Allegros with the 4.3 liter V6 can get 15-16 MPG. Not sure I believe it yet - but that is the rumour.

[zero]

I picked an older model by choice. (1978)

My toy is small 16'. 20R engine with 4 speed trans. It had 95K orig. miles and all the paperwork from the original owner. I like the fact that it has a carb, no computer,not even a factory cat.

.

My 1978 Chinook has a factory cat on it. I wonder why your's doesn't? From what I've read, the 1978s sold in the US had the least emissions equipment on them. Some Canadian versions came with an emissions computer but not sure what it actually did. None had oxygen sensors or electric-carbs.

[zero]

Like these?

http://montreal.kiji...QAdIdZ429725273

http://montreal.kiji...QAdIdZ425084064

The ones I've seen were Astro Allegros. A class C with no pop-top. Just a fixed raised roof.

[zero]

.

If I could find a motorhome built on an Astro, I would buy it.

Here's a link to an Astro Allegro

http://rvhunter.com/page-16173.html

Also the description:

1988 Chevy Astro Allegro. Class C. Chevy truck chassis-V6. 72,000 miles. Air, generator. Motor & auxillery batteries-new. 2 New rear tires. Full size table makes into large bed. Front four seats swivel, and second set makes into a single bed. Electric hook-up, refrigertor, stove, sink, microwave, bathroom with shower, closet, lots of storage cabinets, three roof vents, interior & exterior lights, roll-out awning. 24 gallon gas tank. Good gas mileage (12-14). Thinking of hunting or fishing? Great way to go! Park & snack at your leisure!! This is kept at a Green Bay, WIsconsin address. Call - (920)-497-8578 Ask for Ed or Janet. Asking price is $ 8,500.00.

[zero]

.

If I could find a motorhome built on an Astro, I would buy it.

Here is another Astro Allegro. IT gets 18 MPG instead of 14 MPG! Isn't it amazing how fuel mileage claims very so much? Seems many people either lie or fantasize when it comes to fuel mileage. Makes it very hard to research before you buy and find out the hard way.

I went through this with Toyota motoromes as well as diesel trucks. Many conflicting claims. Some (few) accurate) and many just silly. And yeah, I understand about the effects of different driving habits, speeds, and altitudes. I've seen 21 foot Toyota ads claimed loaded trips getting 24 MPH which I refuse to believe. I've also seen many claim 10-12 MPG.

When Ford first came out with a diesel pickup early 80s many were claiming 30 MPG. They actually got a best at around 14 MPG.

If you read old Toyota Chinook ads in the late 70s - they claim up to 30 MPG and that's USA gallons and not bigger Canadian gallons (which causes added confusion).

http://atlanta.listlux.com/a,38,158084,1988-Allegro-Astro-Van-small-Motorhome-RV.htm

The description:

We sale a 21ft. 1988 Allegro Astro Van Motorhome with a 4,3 l TBI V6 Engine. In the last 5 moth we drive 17 000 miles without any problems in our vacation, but now we have to go back to Germany and sell it.The RV runs und drives very good. The V6 need only 18 MPG ‼ and has 98 000 miles. It has 4-speed automatic transmission and cruise control, tires are good. 2 people's sleep comfortable, max. 4. Working Bathroom with shower. Clean kitchen with: Refrigerator 12V/110V/LP + elec. Cooler 12V for more space; stove 2 flames; sink; microwave; toaster. A/C blows cold, LP heater blows warm. new Honda 5kW generator; LP tank; towing hitch.The RV drives like a Minivan and has enough power to climb up in the Mountains. Asking $5500 obo including bicycle and many staff inside. Call 904-614-5004 or E-mail

1988 Allegro Astro Van small Motorhome RV Ad id: 1708122275225932 | Views: 130 Price: Contact Us Date listed: 3 months, 3 weeks ago

We sale a 21ft. 1988 Allegro Astro Van Motorhome with a 4,3 l TBI V6 Engine. In the last 5 moth we drive 17 000 miles without any problems in our vacation, but now we have to go back to Germany and sell it.The RV runs und drives very good. The V6 need only 18 MPG ‼ and has 98 000 miles. It has 4-speed automatic transmission and cruise control, tires are good. 2 people's sleep comfortable, max. 4. Working Bathroom with shower. Clean kitchen with: Refrigerator 12V/110V/LP + elec. Cooler 12V for more space; stove 2 flames; sink; microwave; toaster. A/C blows cold, LP heater blows warm. new Honda 5kW generator; LP tank; towing hitch.The RV drives like a Minivan and has enough power to climb up in the Mountains. Asking $5500 obo including bicycle and many staff inside. Call 904-614-5004 or E-mail

[MontanaChinook]

Nothing beats a Toyota. I've had them all my driving life. I know how reliable they are, I know what their typical problems are, and I know how work on them.

I'm not an rv kind of guy...or so I thought. I was looking at little coleman popup campers and stuff like that, but feeling like even that was a little excessive. I mean I can sleep in the back of my truck very comfortably, or use a tent. But there are certain things I do in the summer where I'm not really camping...or at least camping isn't the point of the weekend...it's just that to do those things, camping is involved. That seemed like a great situation for some sort of camper. All I wanted is something with a real bed, an actual table to sit at, somewhere you can stand up and sit up straight and hang out if the weather is bad or you need a break. Nothing big or fancy.

I kind of gave up on the popup idea for a while, figuring it's excessive and I don't need to go there yet. But then I saw a Toyota Chinook...and just couldn't help myself.

It's a Toyota. It's small and practical. It's got style. It's got everything I really need. Great gas mileage.

My Chinook is pretty new to me still, but I drove it from Seattle to Montana the day I bought it. It could use a tuneup and a little carb work, and my best mpg was 20, worst was 17. I'm guessing once I do some basic tune up work, it will average just over 20mpg. And mine is the "full size" fiberglass Chinook. The slightly smaller pop-top Chinooks would have to get even better gas mileage than mine. I would believe, on nice open highway, a well tuned pop up Chinook could get 30mpg.

[fred heath]

My 1978 was mfg.in Canada. The underhood label says "non catalyst equipped". Did have an egr but I blocked it off. Engine runs fine without all the junk.

[zero]

My 1978 was mfg.in Canada. The underhood label says "non catalyst equipped". Did have an egr but I blocked it off. Engine runs fine without all the junk.

Might have something to do with your weight class also (not sure about Canada though). Toyota states their 20R engine manual that all the trucks got air pumps and EGRs from 1975. Catalysts on Federal vehicles were used with a GVW of 6000 lbs. or less (light duty). 6001 and up (medium duty) was not required on all trucks until 1981.

[Derek up North]

There used to be a difference between Canadian and US smog standards and the equipment needed to meet them. Canada generally lagged behind by a few years, so it's quite possible that his 'same year, Canadian Market' would have been sold without a catalytic converter.

[zero]

Nothing beats a Toyota. I've had them all my driving life. I know how reliable they are, I know what their typical problems are, and I know how work on them.

Datsun was every bit as any Toyopet or Toyota good back in the 60s - 80s. I don't know about now. When the mini-trucks first hit the US -people were beating the heck out of both and you couldn't kill them. I still have my 1979 Datsun. 230,000 miles and it has never been apart. Nothing but routine things like brakes, filters and tires. Still has the original exhaust system (all stainless steel). Also has the oddest fuel injection system I've ever seen Bocsh Jetronic. Fires every revolution of the engine even though four-stroke-cycle engines only fire every other stroke.

I would believe, on nice open highway, a well tuned pop up Chinook could get 30mpg.

I doubt that is possible. Maybe 22-24 in ideal conditions. Heck my little 2.2 liter diesel Isuzu mini-truck can barely get 32 MPG. My 1985 bare-bones carbed 2.4 Toyota 2WD truck got a best of 29 MPG as I recall. Both my 2 liter Kia Sportages (98 and 2001) with manual transmissions get a best of 27 MPG. To be fair though, all my figures are driving at a altitude of 2000 feet or more. That means at least 6% less fuel mileage then if driven at sea-level.

We'll see. I'll be working on my Chinook all winter. It will have a .8 overdrive and it already has a perfect running 20R engine. The previous owner claimed he got a best of 21 MPG with the original 4 speed (no OD). That was in the low-lands of Louisiana.