Oh no.... Transmission problems? Very weak on side roads? Discouraged.

[crasster]

I'll tell ya, if its not one thing with this rebuild, its another....

87' 22RE Dolphin

Took the camper down the highway to test after a miss fire problem. In a 15-20mph head wind, I was having a ton of trouble going up a pretty minor hill at 45 mph. In fact, in the headwind, 45 was almost as much as I could do except for going down hill. Don't know if this is normal or not. This is incredibly slow for Dallas where people travel at 65-70mph in a 60 which I was in which I would say is dangerous, especially since I have kids.

So I turned around to go back up the highway with the wind behind me. I could do 55-60.

Exited and got onto the side streets. The truck was VERY weak. It sounded like it was in one or two gears too high. I just couldn't get any power.

Some hesitation when pushing the pedal from a stop.

Before this issue on side streets it actually felt pretty strong.

Here is everything from the moment we bought it that I have mechanically worked on & has new parts.

Starter

Oil & Filter

New PCV valve

New Battery

Battery Isolator (which now is not connected and I have the battery hooked up directly to the alternator)

New Muffler

New Dist cap

New Rotor

New Plug wires

New Spark Plugs

New Ignition Coil

Cleaned & fixed 2 fuel sending units in 2 gas tanks

New Fuel Pump

I would assume if the gears were not shifting that this could cause this weakness. But it will briefly down shift if I hit the gas.

Other symptoms that are occurring:

A) There is some oil on the spark plugs

Barely noticeable miss fires

Don't know what to do at this point. Never touched tranny fluid / filter it has 76k miles.

Dunno if it is a transmission thing, valve thing, or what. ;(

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

-Chris R.

[Maineah]

Have you driven another 4 cylinder one? They ain't fast. Try manual shifting the transmission L to 2 to drive and see how that does for you if you see an improvement then it maybe shifting too soon and that will require a cable adjustment. Wouldn't hurt to check the fluid level either.

[WME]

Check engine timing. most of us set it for 8 deg btdc.

FWIW I line in the Rockies at 5800ft, my 86 22re will exceed 70 with no wind.

[crasster]

Have you driven another 4 cylinder one? They ain't fast. Try manual shifting the transmission L to 2 to drive and see how that does for you if you see an improvement then it maybe shifting too soon and that will require a cable adjustment. Wouldn't hurt to check the fluid level either.

Yeah, not fast. I always LOL at the graphic of the Toy bursting into flames.

This one was having trouble getting 45 mph in that head wind.

Okay I will try this.

Transmission fluid level is good.

I don't know, if the transmission fluid & filter has ever been changed.

76K miles at least I've always considered at that border between okay to change or just leave it.

Dextron IV so much better than II which I guess is in it.

Kind of wondering about the valves because as far as I know they have never been adjusted. Also some oil on the plugs. (hope it's not piston rings)

I thought I read somewhere that the 22re is pretty easy to adjust the valves. Would be a good lesson for both my sons and I if it needs it (or stuck valve guide if that can cause oil on plugs).

Arrrg, frustrating. Ah well nothing a cold bottle of suds can't handle. ;o)

[crasster]

Check engine timing. most of us set it for 8 deg btdc.

FWIW I line in the Rockies at 5800ft, my 86 22re will exceed 70 with no wind.

Is btdc "before top dead center"?

I need to learn checking timing and valves. I'm familiar with all the guts, but have never really done it.

[Maineah]

If the fluid is dark I don't think I would change it you might get away with it or it may stop moving in a couple of weeks. 22RE's valves are an easy adjust they do not seem to ever get tight but they do get loose. Define oil on the plugs if they are wet with oil you got a problem! Yes timing is before top dead center you need to jumper two terminals in the connector under the hood to set the timing, there should be a tune up sticker on the hood, right off I don't remember the terminals but the digram under the hood will tell you. It is nice to have a MH to work on that way you can just put a cold one or 3 or 5 in the MH fridge and not even have to go inside!

[Gulfstream Greg]

Yeah, not fast. I always LOL at the graphic of the Toy bursting into flames.

That was my Sunrader with the flames. It is a 1986 4 cyl. turbo. I put a 2 1/2 inch high flow exhaust from the turbo all the way to the tail pipe. It had a V6 transmission behind the engine. I believe it would easily out run our present V6 up a grade. 45 with a strong head wind sounds about right. Sluggish on the side roads though sounds off. Make sure its actually dropping back down into first gear after a stop.

[crasster]

If the fluid is dark I don't think I would change it you might get away with it or it may stop moving in a couple of weeks. 22RE's valves are an easy adjust they do not seem to ever get tight but they do get loose. Define oil on the plugs if they are wet with oil you got a problem! Yes timing is before top dead center you need to jumper two terminals in the connector under the hood to set the timing, there should be a tune up sticker on the hood, right off I don't remember the terminals but the digram under the hood will tell you. It is nice to have a MH to work on that way you can just put a cold one or 3 or 5 in the MH fridge and not even have to go inside!

Yes, plugs are wet with oil. Not gunky, drenched or dripping, but there was wetness and it looked like oil. This is in the gap/internal part of the plug area not the top or shaft of the plug.

Ugg, when Maineah says "you got a problem", I'm ducking.

I hope this is a valve thing and not piston rings! I don't think my sons and I are ready for an engine overhaul. However, there was no blue/grey smoke out the pipe. 76k miles...

I don't know if the oil thing is related to my issue though but it may be.

I took the MH out again. It drove PERFECT and felt right until it warmed up. After it warmed up that's when it happened again. It's almost like if the engine seems as if its flooding. Very much of a loss of power constantly. Doesn't seem to want to switch gears but it will if I floor it. It kind of seems like it wants to stall but it doesn't. Bad especially under load going uphill (well it's always under load but... uphill it seems worse).

After feeling it cool & running fine I'm starting to think it's not the transmission. (fluid is pink)

My guesses

02 sensor? Purge valve in charcoal canister? hmm gas cap venting? EGR? Plugged cat converter?

Or perhaps something with the cold start injector. It was running great until warmed up. Could this be flooding if it is not shutting off?

Anyway, just guessing.

[WME]

You have made a bunch of "smart" improvements, so lets check some dumb things. Do the timing and valves. Check that the throttle is opening all the way. Disconnect the cold start injector fuel line and install a fuel pressure gauge there, go for drive and see what the fuel pressure is above 45 mph. Its SUPPOSED to be the same as at idle.

[Maineah]

Coolant temp sensor? I think your engine may not be getting hot enough or the temp sensor maybe bad and what you see on the plugs is soot from a rich mix. And as WME said fuel pressure, if it is high it's going to run rich.

[crasster]

You have made a bunch of "smart" improvements, so lets check some dumb things. Do the timing and valves. Check that the throttle is opening all the way. Disconnect the cold start injector fuel line and install a fuel pressure gauge there, go for drive and see what the fuel pressure is above 45 mph. Its SUPPOSED to be the same as at idle.

LOL, yes, time to look at some dumb stuff.

Are there any guides online to doing the valves. I've never done any per se, but I'm familiar with the guts and pretty much how its supposed to work. I've done it on go-kart motors w/sons all the way to taking off the head and scraping the pistons with razor blades because of all the burned dirt/carbon when one cart lost its air filter. May actually be fun to do it on a larger motor but would rather not be blind. I also have a feeler gauge.

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge. Harbor Freight kit is $129. But Ebay has a "cheapie" for $25 after ship. I guess it'll do since this will be a "every three blue moons" check.

This is good education for my sons aged 8 & 6. It's a blast getting all grimey w/ them.

"look at how dirty my hands are!!!! EWWWW!" LOL.

[crasster]

Coolant temp sensor? I think your engine may not be getting hot enough or the temp sensor maybe bad and what you see on the plugs is soot from a rich mix. And as WME said fuel pressure, if it is high it's going to run rich.

It may be the temp sensor. Didn't think of that. Wonder if I can bypass it to check? Somehow short it out or?

But it was truly wet on the plugs. Wiped it with my finger, glistened in the sun.

[WME]

Get a Haynes or Chilton book for the 87 Pickup. Most of the info is valid.

[Gulfstream Greg]

It may be the temp sensor. Didn't think of that. Wonder if I can bypass it to check? Somehow short it out or?

But it was truly wet on the plugs. Wiped it with my finger, glistened in the sun.

If you doubt your temp sensor buy a new one and replace it.

Smell the plugs. Oil will not dry up but fuel should eventually dry up after the plugs are out. Have you done a compression test? And are all the plugs coated the same.

[crasster]

Okay, I have some numbers on compression and I think they are good.

Cyl 1 - 165

Cyl 2 - 154

Cyl 3 - 155

Cyl 4 - 148

Unfortunately I still have the same problem.

I changed the tranny fluid & filter and it all feels the same.

Now for something interesting. If I floor the gas pedal while driving, sometime it kicks down sometimes it does not. Does the 22re have a kickdown cable? May be rusty / corroded or something (hopefully a WD-40 fix). Does the 22re have a solenoid for kickdown too?

[WME]

22RE has a kickdown cable. Above 55 or so it won't kickdown.

[Maineah]

The cable controls the entire shift pattern including kick down if it refuses to kick down (assuming you'r going slow enough) it sounds like it's too slack and that will make it shift too soon. Let us know what the fuel pressure is that is the first step your discription to me sounds like it's running too rich.

[Sunnynshare]

Now for something interesting. If I floor the gas pedal while driving, sometime it kicks down sometimes it does not. Does the 22re have a kickdown cable? May be rusty / corroded or something (hopefully a WD-40 fix). Does the 22re have a solenoid for kickdown too?

Yes it does and it's easy to adjust. Did you get the service manual -- there is a wealth of info in there. Kim

[flatspin]

This comment stuck out at me... loss of power that occurs after the truck warms up could be as simple as overheating. thermostat?

-andrew

I took the MH out again. It drove PERFECT and felt right until it warmed up. After it warmed up that's when it happened again. It's almost like if the engine seems as if its flooding. Very much of a loss of power constantly. Doesn't seem to want to switch gears but it will if I floor it. It kind of seems like it wants to stall but it doesn't. Bad especially under load going uphill (well it's always under load but... uphill it seems worse).

After feeling it cool & running fine I'm starting to think it's not the transmission. (fluid is pink)

[WME]

Have you tried to download trouble codes from the computer??

[Spur]

This could have NOTHING to do with your problem, but I was telling my father about it, and he said my Mom's Mustang once had a funny problem that they thought was the transmission. Every time she was driving uphill the car seemed to loose all power, and was very sluggish, wouldn't shift, etc. It turned out that there was a small baffle in the exhaust system that was closing, and sticking closed (esp. uphill). It was essentially acting like a potato stuck in the tailpipe. With wet plugs I think you've got another kind of problem, but you just never know. (BTW- I had a '78 Corolla with wet plugs, and I ended up doing the head gasket, piston rings, bearing rod shells, valve seals, and temp sensor replacement...it was a lot of work, but not rocket science, and I felt MUCH better about the car afterwards.) Like all the other folks are saying, when all else fails, read the instructions...Chilton or Haynes will take you far.

[Lee & Joan]

Adjust valve clearance

Warm up engine

Stop engine and remove valve cover

Set #1 cylinder to TDC compression, turn crankshaft front nut with wrench to align timing marks on pully to TDC (top dead center). Set pully groove to O

Check that rocker arms on Cylinder #1 are loose and #4 are tight (if not turn crankshaft one revolution)

Adjust clearance on Cylinder 1 intake and exhaust, Cyl #2 intake, Cyl #3 exhaust

Intakes 0.008 inches, Exhausts 0.012 inches clearance between valve stem and rocker arm, adjust by loosening lock nut & turning screw, then re lock nut tight.

When done turn crankshaft 1 complete turn and do the other 4 valves (C2 Ex, C3 In, C4 In & Ex)

It does sound like your plugs may be wet with gas not oil since no blue smoke from exhaust. Running rich when hot would cut power.

A cheap temporary fuel pressure gauge can be made with a water pressure tank gauge (6-10$) at hardware plumbing store.

[crasster]

UPDATE: Okay, hopefully I can give more symptoms.

I've done a valve adjustment, and that seemed to give it more power and stop the missing.

However, there is still think "funky" issue with the power.

I'll describe what happens from start to finish on a cold start.

1 - Start the truck, turn the key. Engine starts. Engine idle is honestly pretty rough. I let it idle for a minute.

2 - Put it in R (reverse), and I hear the engine vibrating harder but the truck will back up. Idle is hard.

3 - I back the toy out of the driveway.

4 - I put it in D either with OD on or OFF. Shifts nice. Still rough idle. Teeny bit of hesitation when giving gas at first.

5 - I drive it about 1/4 mile to stop sign. Feels "right". Okay power for a 4 cylinder RV. Not complaining. Under some gas, idle sounds much better.

6 - Stop at stop sign and idle is rough but better than at first. (Warming up?)

7 - Teeny bit of hesitation when at first giving gas from stop. Drive it about 1/2 mile to next stop sign. Good power, idle is doing better, but still kind of rough.

8 - Get on the highway. Sure, it's a Toy, takes a minute but it goes 55. Okay power. It's not my passenger car, but has power.

9 - HIGHWAY - Going up a slight grade but long hill, Toy is not very powerful. It'll drop to 45. If I floor it, it down shifts, but will not get much faster.

10 - HIGHWAY - Reach the top of the hill, start going down, I can go about 60mph before I back it off. I could probably get faster LOL

11 - HIGHWAY - Exit the highway after about 5 miles of highway driving.

12 - Stop sign - Idle sounds good power is good.

13 - Teeny bit of hesitation when first pushing the gas. Turn down a road, stop at another stop sign. Idle sounds good, power is good.

14 - Start to turn down another road, and the engine sounds "muffled". Very under powered. I floor it and it barely down shifts. When it does down shift, it only will for a couple of seconds before it up shifts.

So I keep going like this for another 1/4 mile

15 - I put the Toy into 2nd. I floor it, good power.

16 - I put it back into Drive, I floor it, problem seems fixed. Drive 1/8 mile

17 - Problem is back, sounds muffled, lack of power.

I'm still scratching my head on this one. I've put a new fuel pump in it, of course this does not mean that it is working good.... I guess I need to test the pressure.

My guts say something with the transmission, but I'm not positive. It does have what looks to be a stock transmission cooler, but it's very small. I would say less than 5 inches X 7 inches. Some of the fins bent.... Dunno, perhaps I could try a nice large RV tranny cooler? (we have a good clean filter & a new fluid change - the fluid before was red/pink, and its that way now). There are NO "bump shifts, or gas with nothing then a jolt" which I have experienced with other bad transmissions.

I've also had this problem within a couple minutes of starting the truck without highway speed.

If I could take a wild guess, (that stinks), I'm almost guessing that the transmission is going into a higher gear and not shifting back right. May be the reason the engine sounds "muffled" when the problem happens. Too high of a gear..?? Again, putting it in 2nd and going back to D seems to very temporarily fix it.

It's sad too, I almost have the entire thing rebuilt and ready to go. I can't put my finger on what exactly it is. We've resolved so many problems with this thing. I'm hoping if its transmission it would be something easy to fix like heat. But truly I have no idea.

Wouldn't a fuel pressure problem be a constant problem?

One other thing, could this possibly be a bad catalytic converter? I think the one on there is original. Would a cat converter be constant though?

[waiter]

It really sounds like an engine problem - rough idle.

jumped valve timing - When the last time the timing chain was replaced

Fuel pressure - To high would cause rich burn, sooty, wet plugs. to low could also cause this.

stuck injector (closed or open could also cause this.

At one point I think you removed spark plug wires one at a time and you seen no change on plug 3?? try removing the injector plugs one at a time and see if you get the same results.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Maineah]

You know what I think? you may have a plugged cat that may explain a lot of things. Do you have a vacuum gauge? Alternative plan disconnect the cat at the front pipe and take it for a ride.

[crasster]

You know what I think? you may have a plugged cat that may explain a lot of things. Do you have a vacuum gauge? Alternative plan disconnect the cat at the front pipe and take it for a ride.

That's what I was kind of wondering...

Unfortunately don't have a vacuum gauge.

LOL, taking off the cat that's gonna be LOUD. Heh, cops kind of strict around here.

I suppose I could try to rig up a test pipe of some kind, like a pass through.

Would taking out the 02 sensor help much for a test?

I could always go buy a vacuum gauge, (Does anybody know if Harbor freight sell them?)...

I'd hate to just throw the part at it. $100 with free ship isn't bad, but still it's $100.

I'm almost sure this is the original 1987 cat.

Already replaced the muffler that was like a metal swiss cheese.

[crasster]

Okay I pulled the catalytic converter off and held it up to the sun light to look through it, and I could see light, but it was about the size of an eraser on a common school pencil or a pea.

Am I supposed to be able to see through it all the way? I have no experience looking at these.

Thanks!

[WME]

OK I think the Toy cat is a honeycomb design. You should see LOTS of "peas". Use a flashlight to look inside and see if the comb is damaged.

Just start your Toy in the driveway and see how it feels engine wise.

[Maineah]

Yeah put it in gear and mat it not for to long just enough to see how it acts (maybe a good ideal to hold the brake too) You should be able to see right through it you will have to turn it a bit but if it's as dark as the inside of a boot it's plugged up usually they burn and like WME said have a look with a flash light if you can see burn marks (it should be flat across the honey comb) it's gone. I don't think the O2 sensor would be big enough prove any thing. If you find a vacuum gauge it will fluxuate wildly when you goose it.

[crasster]

Yeah put it in gear and mat it not for to long just enough to see how it acts (maybe a good ideal to hold the brake too) You should be able to see right through it you will have to turn it a bit but if it's as dark as the inside of a boot it's plugged up usually they burn and like WME said have a look with a flash light if you can see burn marks (it should be flat across the honey comb) it's gone. I don't think the O2 sensor would be big enough prove any thing. If you find a vacuum gauge it will fluxuate wildly when you goose it.

Yeah, what it looks like when looking through it is just a tiny "speck" of light is coming through. It's like if there was an opening on the other side the size of a pea or pencil eraser. This is holding it up to the sun light or using a flashlight on the other side. If I try to shine a flashlight into it to see the honey come area, there are "screens" on each side of the cat. I can't see in it at all.

If I'm supposed to be able to see right through it, would it be basically like looking through a hole? Like should I be able to see the whole diameter of the hole on the other side? Because it's NOT even close to that - just a pencil eraser sized "peak hole".

On starting it it does seem smoother, but of course the vibrations from the loud pipe it was kind of hard to tell. Heh, but it did sound like a 4 cylinder muscle car.

[WME]

I think the the screen you are seeing is the honeycomb. Can you bolt up some sort of test tube to let you run the RV without the noise police showing up?

[5Toyota]

we dont live in a test area here some have removed converter cleaned out all honey comb and bolt back on worked good not loud no back presure i once had a muffler fell apart inside and blocked off the outlet

[crasster]

I think the the screen you are seeing is the honeycomb. Can you bolt up some sort of test tube to let you run the RV without the noise police showing up?

Well the screen is right near each opening on the cat. Perhaps 2 inches below the mounts. It's looks like a bunch of tiny squares. Its it supposed to look like a honeycomb (hexagons) or squares?

Thanks

[WME]

Squares or hex, it depends on the mfg.

[crasster]

I think the new CAT fixed it!

Feels a lot stronger in lower gears. I can definitely tell the difference.

This is how it is on the highway.

Going up some smaller Texas hills it has to kick down once to "maintain speed" of 55, but probably drops down to about 52-53.

Going down hills I know I could get it past 65 but I didn't have the nerve LOL. (Same grade just going down)

On straight flat roads I can go 55 with no complaints in slight head wind.

All of this in OD. Left it ON the entire time.

Hesitation from stops feels better, not perfect, but better. (Probably good considering this is a 1987)

The slightly rough idle on cold start seems to go away faster.

I drove it this way for about 25 miles.

I'm keeping em crossed the problem doesn't come back!

This thing has a "stock" transmission cooler that is external of the radiator. Looks to be about the same age as the RV. It's kind of small, perhaps around 6 X 10 inches. Is that enough or would it be wise to go with a Hayden or bigger one?