Generator won't run AC

[jjrbus]

21 minutes ago, jdemaris said:

I have no specs on those older AC units. My guess is - they are little different then what is out there now as far as current per BTU goes.  Lots of new stuff is advertised with a lot of hype.  A  motor is a motor and a compressor is a compressor.  Granted there are ways to make newer units start easier- but with the rest? I really do not know. I DO know this (and it still pisses me off).  Back a few years ago the power company was giving incentives to buy new refrigerators and freezers since the new ones are SO much more efficient.  So, I replaced a 1948 International Harvester chest-freezer that looked like a submarine but still worked perfect.  I checked power usage on it before I junked it.  Guess what?  My new freezer - in the long run - uses almost exactly the same power.  

The older AC units I see ads for back late 60s, early 70s are the Duo-Therm Briske-Aire XL (the bigger one) and the Armstrong TAC-106 in a 6K BTU model and a TAC-210 in a 10K BTU model.

You bring back memories of my Aunt's refrigerator with the coil on top    Kelvinator, GE,  ???   That thing was around for decades and then in the garage forever. 

[jjrbus]

2 hours ago, markwilliam1 said:

Thanks JD, I often wonder why any of our rigs need an13.5K AC. I've only been traveling in my Granville this year and only in Ohio so far. But my 11K AC gets So Cold I can't imagine needing a bigger unit. My gosh, they're mostly only 21' and smaller. Is location important need a bigger unit? I'm glad I have the little 11K unit otherwise I know my little Honda wouldn't work @ all! Thoughts anyone??

This from an old cynical guy who does not have a lot of respect for the RV industry.   When a RV manufacturer sends out for bids for AC's and Co A says a truck load of 13.5k units will be $299 each and Co B sends back a bid for $309 ea for a truckload of 11k units, the RV's get 13.5k units.  Only my opinion of course, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.  Jim

[zero]

1 hour ago, jjrbus said:

You bring back memories of my Aunt's refrigerator with the coil on top    Kelvinator, GE,  ???   That thing was around for decades and then in the garage forever. 

I still have one.  A GE "Monitor Top."  Still works fine.  Uses some sort of refrigerant considered "dangerous" now, but what isn't?

[markwilliam1]

Checked my Honda 2000i owners manual and spoke wirh the Honda elves. No mention of a break in period in the manual and the elves told me due to the superiority of the Honda no break in period is necessary Lol!!

[markwilliam1]

I thought the guy was talking about a HF Predator 2500 not a 1900 Predator. If it's a 1900 I am no longer confused!!

[jjrbus]

2 hours ago, jdemaris said:

I still have one.  A GE "Monitor Top."  Still works fine.  Uses some sort of refrigerant considered "dangerous" now, but what isn't?

Unbelievable, wonder if it was my Aunt's?   

[jjrbus]

55 minutes ago, markwilliam1 said:

I thought the guy was talking about a HF Predator 2500 not a 1900 Predator. If it's a 1900 I am no longer confused!!

They are talking about a 2500 predator so you can stay confused 

Edited August 25, 2016 by jjrbus

[markwilliam1]

Oh Man! The older I get the more confusion reigns!!

[Totem]

unlike the Honda that operates nominally at 1600 watts continuous as rated the predator, which has a larger engine operates at 2200 nominal .  The honda at 98.5 cc vs the predator's 125 cc on engine size; so for those people that believe in fact not fiction this is facts.

For those that cannot stand truth as salt to a slug the magical 98.5 cc somehow makes more power yada yada yada. The surge rating of 2500 still might not be enough to push your antique AC to start; and you might be too poor to afford a power saver AC. But hey spend $1000 instead on a smaller honda that will magically run the 25 year old AC. yada yada ... yawn.

 

Why cant we get at least one person in here to spend the extra $ and pickup a Yamaha EF2400ISHC ...and review it. Now THAT is a generator.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by Totem

[markwilliam1]

You would have to be quite the optimus (or quite foolish) to go and buy a Honda 2000i and expect it to run your roof AC. Not enough guts! I totally agree with Totem and he proved it! In my case I happened to have a new Honda before got my Toy. Surprisingly it has worked for me but it wouldn't stand the rigors of Totem's trip through the mountains I don't believe. 

[Derek up North]

On 2016-08-22 at 8:16 PM, Derek up North said:

That's all that matters and you don't have to post a video of yourself smiling (driving or stationery) for me to believe you.

 

[markwilliam1]

Your a good guy Derek and I appreciate it:-)!!

[Totem]

really Derek? you believe that a generator thats max capable wattage is 2000 peak 1600 running can run an air conditioner that's own specifications documents says it takes 2800 watts to run? I have some swamp land and water or a "tonic" that will cure all your ailments for sale then.. for the cheap price $1000

[Derek up North]

No, go back and re-read what I've posted twice.

[Totem]

Dometic 11000 btu duo therm specs per their site:

Required:

Amperage	14 A
Voltage	110 volts
Wattage	2800 watts

 

Honda eu2000i specs:

max output for 30 minutes: 2.0 kVA

Rated output:1.6 kVA

Rated Amp load: 13.3 A

 

The math just isnt there.

[markwilliam1]

Different specks listed for my Dometic AC 600 series Penguin per the manual: 11,000 BTU; Compressor rated load 9.5 amps; Fan motor rated load 3.1 amps Honda 2000i 2000 watt AC max 16.7 amps; 1600 watt AC max 13.3 amps. The manual also recommends a 2.5 KW minimum generator (this AC was installed in 1999.) I know you don't believe my Honda can run my roof AC Totem ( and that's OK) but I have no worries because I know it does. Why I have no idea. I'm not an electrician but it seems the Honda has enough amps to run this AC if I added right. Im sure I'm missing something though. How far off am I? Fascinating thread Totem....good job!

[Totem]

I'm not saying it wont start it or even run it for 30 minutes... after that you are probably not doing good to that precious Honda.

[markwilliam1]

Did my #'s add up?? Called Honda support. Rep said the Honda 2000i is designed to run under a full load (not overload) for hours @ a time with no harm to the gen. He stated you must make sure the oil is full and the air filter is clean. As previously stated my Honda revs up briefly when the compressor turns on then settles back when just the AC fan is running so there is no continuous full load unless the compressor runs continuously which has not happened.:-)

[Totem]

The compressor running continuously would be preferable to the inrush spike you are putting it through with the constant cycling of the compressor on low. - just sayin.

[jjrbus]

You skipped the LRA   locked rotor amps.   This is that brief burst of energy the AC uses when starting.   Your 11k unit is likely around 50 amps LRA

   When AC motors are started with full voltage (Across-the-Line Starting), they draw line amperage 300% to 600% greater than their full load running current. The magnitude of the “inrush current” (also called locked rotor amps or LRA) is determined by motor horsepower and design characteristics.

This is where the little Honda stands heads and shoulders above the rest.   It will constantly start loads that no way no how it should be able to start!  IS it good for the load, is it good for the Honda, I don't know.

[zero]

2 hours ago, Totem said:

 

Note I am NOT quoting Totem but the software keeps sticking him in my post.   I am replying to "jjrbus" and the comment . . . " This is where the little Honda stands heads and shoulders above the rest.   It will constantly start loads that no way no how it should be able to start!  IS it good for the load, is it good for the Honda, I don't know. "     Honda 2000i generators are rated by Honda are rated for 2000 watts or surge.   Are you claiming the put out much power then the Honda rating?

 

 

 

[Totem]

"head and shoulders above the rest"

how?  with a smaller motor and watt output? Im not certain its any better than the comparable generac and I definitely not buying that the nameplate produces more power any more than adding airbrushed flames to my Sunrader will help it hit 70 mph.

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by Totem

[zero]

 I had a few gensets that handled less then rated and a few just a hair over.  Surge ratings MUST have a time-frame of they are meaningless.  A typical 2000 watt generator of any make ought to be able to surge to 5000 watts for a few fractions of a second.  But - you don't see them marketed as 5000 watts units (I hope).

To give Honda some credit, I'm not sure if they ever use the words "peak" or "surge" like many other sellers do. If Honda does, I've missed it.  Honda rates the 2000i to handle 2000 watts for 30 minutes so that's a lot more then just a surge rating. If someone really wanted to compare one make and model to another - more precise figures are needed.  Or - plug them both into the same AC unit and see what does better.

[Totem]

25 minutes ago, jdemaris said:

 I had a few gensets that handled less then rated and a few just a hair over.  Surge ratings MUST have a time-frame of they are meaningless.  A typical 2000 watt generator of any make ought to be able to surge to 5000 watts for a few fractions of a second.  But - you don't see them marketed as 5000 watts units (I hope).

To give Honda some credit, I'm not sure if they ever use the words "peak" or "surge" like many other sellers do. If Honda does, I've missed it.  Honda rates the 2000i to handle 2000 watts for 30 minutes so that's a lot more then just a surge rating. If someone really wanted to compare one make and model to another - more precise figures are needed.  Or - plug them both into the same AC unit and see what does better.

to me words in reference to surge are less important than as to the "why" one shouldnt run it in that mode longer than 30 minutes....

Its astounding to me that some of the folks in here rag on HF and also on people that will do a switcharoo warranty on a tool failure with them and yet those same people advocate improperly using one of these Hondas to do a job that the user manual clearly states the machine is not up to the task for while at the same time planning to lean on the "generous" 3 year warranty in the event of an almost assured failure as somehow being ethically superior all while spending double in cost to do it. Amazing.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Totem

[jjrbus]

1 hour ago, jdemaris said:

 

I am saying that in my experience, including what I have read the 2000 watt Honda's will start loads that according to the numbers they should not be able to start.   I have no way to prove this, but would be happy to put my 2000 up against any other 2000 watt genset and the  2500 watt units.  It would be a very interesting experience and could be fun.

I am a bit biased I do have my 4th Honda 2000 on the rear of my motorhome!  I am going to sell my third one sitting in the garage and barely used for what I paid for it 5 years ago.  So to my way of thinking they are cheaper also.

                                                                          Jim

[Maineah]

On 8/25/2016 at 3:01 PM, Totem said:

theres also the possibility he cooked the generator when he ran it full barrel without proper break in period; and its clearly in the instruction manual thats also posted on the website; not sure why he didnt see it.

Do honda's have break in period when new or do they come pre broken in from the elves that make them?

How does one break in a generator? The generator engine maybe but not the generator it's self out of the box it's going to do what it going to do from day one.

[zero]

2 hours ago, jjrbus said:

I am saying that in my experience, including what I have read the 2000 watt Honda's will start loads that according to the numbers they should not be able to start.  

                                                                          Jim

I've seen data from resistive load-bank tests on Honda 2000i generators.   I wish I could remember all the specs.  I think it was 2500 watts for 5 seconds, 2200 watts for 5 minutes.   And or course Honda publishes 2000 watts for 30 minutes and 1600 watts continuous.  Those specs are not unusual, but I'm sure there are other makes sold as "2000s" that do worse. I know the 2000 Yamaha did not do was well.   I will note that I used to have a Coleman Pulse 1850 watt generator that could also do 2500 watts for at least 5 seconds.  As I said earlier - wattage specs without time-frames are kind of meaningless.

[jjrbus]

1 minute ago, jdemaris said:

I've seen data from resistive load-bank tests on Honda 2000i generators.   I wish I could remember all the specs.  I think it was 2500 watts for 5 seconds, 2200 watts for 5 minutes.   And or course Honda publishes 2000 watts for 30 minutes and 1600 watts continuous.  Those specs are not unusual, but I'm sure there are other makes sold as "2000s" that do worse. I know the 2000 Yamaha did not do was well.   I will note that I used to have a Coleman Pulse 1850 watt generator that could also do 2500 watts for at least 5 seconds.  As I said earlier - wattage specs without time-frames are kind of meaningless.

During my shopping for AC and generator I found some interesting testing  done with decent equipment and what appeared to be  knowledgeable people and have no reason to look for them now.

The little Honda is reportedly starting AC's that have 45/50 AMP LRA equal to 4500/6000 watts, they should not be able to do it.  Will they do it in all conditions, I doubt it.    

Unfortunately the info on the net is mostly useless, a guy testing an AC on a cool day another one with a circular saw, then a table saw, then a space heater. Without an electronics/electric back ground I got pretty confused.  Some were hyping the Polar Cub and how it would easily run on a Honda 2000. What they did not know was they were running the old models which were 7&8k btu and no longer available. Thankfully people like you pipe up and ask for some facts.

[zero]

Probably all AC units except for some newer "soft-start" models draw LRA for a few milliseconds every time they start.  That is going to be up around 5500-6000 watts.  I also bet just about any generator sold as "2000" watts can make 6000 watts for a few milliseconds.  That is where it gets close.  It it also why if someone wants reliability - it makes sense to have something bigger.

I don't know if any generators in the general consumer-market come with full specs anymore. If so, I haven't seen them.  

I've got a 5 horse gas-driven generator here that is 50 years old.  It was sold as a 2500 watt unit.  It DID come with full specs.  2500 watts continuous. 4200 watts for 5 seconds.  6300 watts for 100 milliseconds.  8800 watts for 100 milliseconds.  It would be nice if Honda, Yamaha - and all the rest would give such specs - but they don't unless hidden somewhere I have not come across. Generally speaking the average  consumer is clueless and likes it that way.  No demand, so no specs.

[WME]

Just to throw a new worm in the can. My current Car Craft (Nov 2016) has a 4 page HF ad and the 4000/3200w generator is on super sale for $289.99, 70db noise rating.

[jjrbus]

9 hours ago, jdemaris said:

Probably all AC units except for some newer "soft-start" models draw LRA for a few milliseconds every time they start.  That is going to be up around 5500-6000 watts.  I also bet just about any generator sold as "2000" watts can make 6000 watts for a few milliseconds.  That is where it gets close.  It it also why if someone wants reliability - it makes sense to have something bigger.

I don't know if any generators in the general consumer-market come with full specs anymore. If so, I haven't seen them.  

I've got a 5 horse gas-driven generator here that is 50 years old.  It was sold as a 2500 watt unit.  It DID come with full specs.  2500 watts continuous. 4200 watts for 5 seconds.  6300 watts for 100 milliseconds.  8800 watts for 100 milliseconds.  It would be nice if Honda, Yamaha - and all the rest would give such specs - but they don't unless hidden somewhere I have not come across. Generally speaking the average  consumer is clueless and likes it that way.  No demand, so no specs.

Advent has marketed a 2000 watt friendly Air Command roof air as 2000 watt generator friendly.   But absolutely no specs available or even a brief explanation of how they created this marvel of modern technology.    Maybe they just added a Supco SP6     Also as you pointed out is it 2000 watts running or surge, they are mum on that one.  The unit is listed as a 13.5k and for my use is likely too big to keep humidity down.  

Smaller BTU roof airs are available in other parts of the world, Australia seems to be using new composite walls that retain heat and cold better than most.  Hard to tract down info and of no use to me so I do not pursue it.   If I did an RV from scratch, which is highly unlikely. I would do 2" wall's and 3-4" roof.  Of course that is sitting in FL, if I were in the NE it would not be an issue. 

Even without a tech background it would like to have some numbers to compare, unfortunately the average consumer will buy the one with 4 lcd's over the one with 3 lcd's!  Jim

[jjrbus]

7 hours ago, WME said:

Just to throw a new worm in the can. My current Car Craft (Nov 2016) has a 4 page HF ad and the 4000/3200w generator is on super sale for $289.99, 70db noise rating.

70db, wonder if my roof air would mask that?   The AC manufacturers do not list db ratings that I have seen.  I do not know the db rating on mine but it uncomfortably loud to me. 

[Klein]

Thank you all for feedback. I guess with fall around the corner I have plenty of time to think this one. Issue is that is not hot anymore to test ?

I am tempted to buy the smart tools yamaha 2000w clones, two pieces, total cost around 1100$, then when not planning to go tripping in excruciating heat, I can carry one inside in a tote for emergencies since it is small enough, then when I plan to use AC, I would mount the cargo rack and carry both units.

4000w combined ought to do it on the rare ocasions I need AC. 

I went to Oregon SE in Alvord desert, camped on the playa at 98F heat and survived staying in the shadow of the  Sunrader. ?

Anybody has feedback on these dual systems? I was told it is important they both work to actuall yield those 4000w

Thank you

(my AC cools like a champ, tested it in 100F the other day, with house connection of course, it would be a shame to replace especially if overall cost woul be higher)

We live in NW so despite daytime highs being very high ? we don't need AC during night, almost anywhere in the west, including desert.

[jjrbus]

When I was full timing I had 2 Honda's and they worked very well.  Full timing they became a bit of a pain, 2 gensets to start and stop and fuel and maintain, going out in inclement weather to use.

When I had the opportunity I changed to a Honda EV4010 (no longer available)   Push the button inside to start, had a 15 gallon gas tank, much better.

For recreational use of a motor home I would not have an issue with 2 small units and does have some advantages.

What does the manufacturer recommend to run your AC, most Toys have a 2800 watt genset, so would think that combined 2800 watts or higher would be sufficient. Unless of course AC manufacturer recommends larger genset.

You also may have the option of looking for a used RV genset that is appropriate for your unit.  I have not researched doing that, so have no info on it.  I have seen some used gen's from $300 to $1500.

                                                          Jim

Edited August 28, 2016 by jjrbus

[WME]

Super HF coupon Predator 4000/3200...$275.00..... 70db

Predator 2500...  64 db

Yamaha 2000....61 db

Yamaha 2400...60 db

Yamaha 3000....60 db

Honda 2000....59 db

Honda 3000...58 db