What spare and jack should I have?

[gringostar]

Hello all, 

I just got my 1986 20' mini cruiser about two months ago.  it didn't come with a spare tire or jack.  Question:  Is the spare tire supposed to work for the dualies in the back too?  (They seem to be quite big) or just for the two front tires?  What about a jack?  There isn't one of those either.  Will a standard Toyota pickup truck jack work?  Again, is one supposed to be able to change the rear tire in case of a rear flat or is it expected that for a rear flat, one would simply drive slowly with a single rear flat to the nearest service station?  Thanks!!!  Getting ready for my first summer trip.  

Edited May 10, 2016 by gringostar

[fred heath]

What year toy?

Full float or semi float rear axle?

If not full float from the factory, you may have to carry 2 spare tires. As the front wheels are different than the rear.

Edited May 10, 2016 by fred heath

[zero]

If a full-floater like my 1988 Minicruiser - wheels are different and lug-nut sizes are also different. My 1988 has the matching 6 lug mounts,front back. Some older years do not. If you have 5 lug wheels in front,  and 6 lug wheels in back - then you need two different spares.  Also need two different lug-nut wrenches. I also suggest a hydraulic bottle jack. 

[gringostar]

4 hours ago, fred heath said:

What year toy?

Full float or semi float rear axle?

If not full float from the factory, you may have to carry 2 spare tires. As the front wheels are different than the rear.

1986

[zero]

1986 was the model year Toyota equipped their cab & chassis trucks with the full-floaters.  Some 1986 RVs though have 1985 truck chassis.  I'm not sure if it was legal to sell a new Toyota RV in model-year 1986 without if it was a certain size (but not sure).

[linda s]

I have an 86 with the different wheels front and back and I only carry a spare for the front. You can drive a long way with only one tire in the back. Just slower.

Linda

[payaso del mar]

bottle jack is best compact option for lifting something as heavy as any motorhome.  look at Northern Tool or Harbor Fright, they both have em on sale frequently.  and familiarize yourself with the correct jacking points before you're by side of road laying in the dirt......

[fred heath]

HF has the 12 ton hydraulic bottle jack on sale for less than $30.00.

I recommend you get the "low profile" design.

I've found there's not a lot of clearance by the rear axle.

[gringostar]

8 hours ago, linda s said:

I have an 86 with the different wheels front and back and I only carry a spare for the front. You can drive a long way with only one tire in the back. Just slower.

Linda

I like that. That's what I'm gonna do.  Thanks.

[Derek up North]

9 hours ago, linda s said:

 You can drive a long way with only one tire in the back. Just slower.

But how safely on 1 overloaded tire? There's a reason that they're built with dual rear wheels and use tires that are rated at 1875lb @ 65psi. Personally, I wouldn't drive further than to get to somewhere safe to install my spare. It's not as though you'll find a suitable replacement in stock (and at a reasonable price) at the nearest gas station.:)

[linda s]

Well you have to make a choice. Carry an extra 80 lbs of tire and wheel all the time or pay a little more or wait a day to get the right tire. My last single wheel in the back trip I think I mentioned here before. 250 miles and it made it fine. Little rinky dink tire place in the middle of nowhere could have gotten me a tire in a day but I had been off work a month for my granddaughter's birth and I had to get to work. Hey were out there driving tiny little motorhomes. There is risk every time we head out. Yes if I was going to Alaska I might take the extra spare. probably not though.

Linda S

[WME]

Depends on your level of desperation. Choices

1. 2 spares

2. 1 spare, drive slow and wait for new tire

3. immediately remove the flat, saving the tire and have it repaired

3. 1 spare, have a shop demount tire and place it on the dully.

4. Go to Custom and  Commercial Wheel and buy the 5 bolt to 6 bolt adapter. Carry one spare.

 

  

[DanAatTheCape]

I have a 4 ton bottle jack from harbor freight. In theory I could lift the entire vehicle with that.  I also carry one jack stand (fits under sofa).  If I have to do some on the road repairs at least I can safely get under there if need be. 

 

My vehicle has the same tire all around and a spare. There is instructions in owners manual on how to use one of the real wheels as a spare. 

 

I highly recommend that you consider your tools.  I have a 1/2" ratchet with extensions and the appropriate socket (22mm and 23mm, in my case)" .

 

I also carry a home made "cheater bar" - a piece of pipe.  Very very handy thing to have.   

 

I think it would also be a good idea to actually change a tire so you can resolve any issues.   I use antilocking stuff on my lug nuts. I tighten as tight as I physically can - with the cheater bar. 

 

Another thing to address is a tire pressure gauge that actually works on all 6 tires. I also carry the inflator nozzle too. one that works both ways. More than once I have installed it on the hose at a place that had free air but their nozzle would not work on my vehicle.

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/dual-chuck-tire-inflator-68264.html

 

 

On my rear wheels, I have rubber lines coming from the inner tires,  I carry an extra rubber extension which I can use to "reach"" when changing someone's nozzle is not an option.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by DanAatTheCape

[payaso del mar]

Dan, if you're laying into lug nuts hard with extension bar AFTER lubing threads, you're probably putting too much torque on the lug threads....      bolt torque is actually an imperfect indirect measure of bolt stretch......and any kind of slickness throws this relationship off, because the bolt has stretched a lot more by the time the pulling torque on the wrench hits the same torque #.   i'm guessing you aren't traveling with a spouse or signif other who might ever have to undo those nuts?  when you torque em in your driveway, use a torque wrench and downrate the torque spec slightly if you lube threads.  too much torque doesn't do anything except hasten the metal fatigue of lug studs and nuts.

 I've gotten away from using even a little bit of grease on wheel studs....when you go to pull the wheel off, the inside of the wheel will often have dirt all over, which then falls on the lug threads as you remove the wheel and sticks in the grease.  try 3M spray nonstick lube or graphite instead if you're worried about lug galling..

[zero]

Many Toyota RVs came new with 6 ply tires, not 8 ply-rated tires.  That is how Toyota shipped them at least through 1990. And if set at the pressure that Toyota recommended for max load at 32 PSI for duals - having just one tire leaves a 1100 lb. load capacity on one side.  Yeah, I know - probably most here have 8 ply rated tires but not everyone with a Toyota and duals does.  In fact, many have tires that are less then a 6 ply rating.
I like having a spare and the places where my family travels and camps have very few places to get new tires or repairs. 

[DanAatTheCape]

1 hour ago, payaso del mar said:

Dan, if you're laying into Ilug nuts hard with extension bar AFTER lubing threads, you're probably putting too much torque on the lug threads....      bolt torque is actually an imperfect indirect measure of bolt stretch......and any kind of slickness throws this relationship off, because the bolt has stretched a lot more by the time the pulling torque on the wrench hits the same torque #.   i'm guessing you aren't traveling with a spouse or signif other who might ever have to undo those nuts?  when you torque em in your driveway, use a torque wrench and downrate the torque spec slightly if you lube threads.  too much torque doesn't do anything except hasten the metal fatigue of lug studs and nuts.

 I've gotten away from using even a little bit of grease on wheel studs....when you go to pull the wheel off, the inside of the wheel will often have dirt all over, which then falls on the lug threads as you remove the wheel and sticks in the grease.  try 3M spray nonstick lube or graphite instead if you're worried about lug galling..

When I had tires mounted, there was quite a discussion on "what torque"      I am not a big guy and based on what those with torque wrenches did, I think I am getting 100-125 lbs which I think is about right. I could tell by what "torque" it took for me to get them off.  Since I have been using antisieze I have not had any issues with lugs.   Since wallie's world will not do rv tires anymore (I take them off  and hand them to them), I have  done my own rotations etc.

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by DanAatTheCape

[DanAatTheCape]

50 minutes ago, jdemaris said:

Many Toyota RVs came new with 6 ply tires, not 8 ply-rated tires.  That is how Toyota shipped them at least through 1990. And if set at the pressure that Toyota recommended for max load at 32 PSI for duals - having just one tire leaves a 1100 lb. load capacity on one side.  Yeah, I know - probably most here have 8 ply rated tires but not everyone with a Toyota and duals does.  In fact, many have tires that are less then a 6 ply rating.
I like having a spare and the places where my family travels and camps have very few places to get new tires or repairs. 

I have heard people talk about 32lbs - I think that is either very early versions or people who are looking at pickup manuals.  I run my rears at max (65 psi for 8 ply "D",  50 for 6 ply "C").  Then an individual tire can carry all the load on one side of the rear - safety issue.  (the load bearing capacity stamped on tires is only valid at weight stated.  Remember , these toys are running overweight or very close to it.  I run my front tires about 60 and not concerned even as low as 50.

 

Some people run less than then C rated tires - I do not think that is a good idea.   People have been letting unknowing tires  stores lead them into weaker tires.  Our tires size does not have an aspect ratio - they are an one off size.  Besides toys, they were used in vw vanagons in 85-86.   Several times I have tire store people flat out tell me the size I was giving them is wrong.  Next time I am going to whip out all the cash in my wallet and challenge them to a bet.

[linda s]

I don't think 6 ply tires were on our rigs up to the 90's. My Sunrader in 1986 came with Bridgestone 8 ply tires. Maybe before Toyota was actually shipping full floaters but in that case the tires would have been for a single wheel truck and the manufacturer might have just added the same make tire instead of buying a whole set. I do agree that the recommended pressure was ridiculously low. Mine says 28lbs cold.

Linda S

[zero]

I have every year of the Toyota Cab ;& Chassis Guide from 1978 to 1990 except for a few years, here and there.  1986, 1988, 1989, and 1990 Toyota only put 8 ply rated tires on the single-rear-wheel trucks.   Dual rear wheel trucks came with 6 ply rated tires.  Also - Toyota gives 32 PSI for a max load rating on the rear tires with duals. NOT FROM A PICKUP TRUCK MANUAL.  I know the difference.  I also have the 1993 Cab & Chassis manual but it's at my other house and not sure if it has changes, as compared to the 1990 book.

Now maybe some motorhome builders took off the OEM tires that Toyota shipped the cab & chassis trucks with and put on their own tires of choice. I have no knowledge of who did what.  1990 Toyota Cab & Chassis manual (coach builders guide) shows single rear wheel trucks with 8 ply rated tires, 65 PSI, and 3700 lb, max rear axle rating.   Dual rear wheel trucks with 6 ply rated tires., 32 PSI, and a 4400 lb. rear axle rating.  Again - from the official Toyota manual for HD cab & chassis truck and NOT some manual for pickup trucks.  On a 2004 Hilux cab & chassis truck in Europe - it only comes with single rear wheels and uses 8 ply rated 195R-14" tires.  They are run at 65 PSI and the rear axle (NOT full floating) is rated at 3850 lbs.

[DanAatTheCape]

1 hour ago, linda s said:

I don't think 6 ply tires were on our rigs up to the 90's. My Sunrader in 1986 came with Bridgestone 8 ply tires. Maybe before Toyota was actually shipping full floaters but in that case the tires would have been for a single wheel truck and the manufacturer might have just added the same make tire instead of buying a whole set. I do agree that the recommended pressure was ridiculously low. Mine says 28lbs cold.

Linda S

my 93 winnie warrior was spec-ed for 6 ply = Will attach pic

[zero]

3 hours ago, DanAatTheCape said:

Our tires size does not have an aspect ratio -

Yes they do.  It is 82 as I recall.  E.g. a 185R-14" tire  is a 185/82-14" tire to be specific assuming my memory is correct.  If you read of the sizing system used for these tires - it gives the aspect ratios.  

[DanAatTheCape]

1 minute ago, jdemaris said:

Yes they do.  It is 82 as I recall.  E.g. a 185R-14" tire  is a 185/82-14" tire to be specific assuming my memory is correct.  If you read of the sizing system used for these tires - it gives the aspect ratios.  

semantics  --  of course there is an aspect ratio - in this case it is not stated.  185R/14

[DanAatTheCape]

23 minutes ago, jdemaris said:

I have every year of the Toyota Cab ;& Chassis Guide from 1978 to 1990 except for a few years, here and there.  1986, 1988, 1989, and 1990 Toyota only put 8 ply rated tires on the single-rear-wheel trucks.   Dual rear wheel trucks came with 6 ply rated tires.  Also - Toyota gives 32 PSI for a max load rating on the rear tires with duals. NOT FROM A PICKUP TRUCK MANUAL.  I know the difference.  I also have the 1993 Cab & Chassis manual but it's at my other house and not sure if it has changes, as compared to the 1990 book.

Now maybe some motorhome builders took off the OEM tires that Toyota shipped the cab & chassis trucks with and put on their own tires of choice. I have no knowledge of who did what.  1990 Toyota Cab & Chassis manual (coach builders guide) shows single rear wheel trucks with 8 ply rated tires, 65 PSI, and 3700 lb, max rear axle rating.   Dual rear wheel trucks with 6 ply rated tires., 32 PSI, and a 4400 lb. rear axle rating.  Again - from the official Toyota manual for HD cab & chassis truck and NOT some manual for pickup trucks.  On a 2004 Hilux cab & chassis truck in Europe - it only comes with single rear wheels and uses 8 ply rated 195R-14" tires.  They are run at 65 PSI and the rear axle (NOT full floating) is rated at 3850 lbs.

I would have thought that after toyota realized that the american rv manufacturers where overloading their chassis they would have upped the numbers - I was guessing that realization should have occurred when they had to recall the axles in 85-86 time frame.  At may pressure you can tell that these rear tires are loaded. I  Wonder how  they looked at 32psi?   Curious, which rv mfr released that spec sheet?

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by DanAatTheCape

[zero]

18 minutes ago, DanAatTheCape said:

I would have thought that after toyota realized that the american rv manufacturers where overloading their chassis they would have upped the numbers - I was guessing that realization should have occurred when they had to recall the axles in 85-86 time frame. 

 

As I recall, Toyota never had to recall any axles.  What they did was voluntary. I assume to keep from looking bad regardless if they were at fault or not.  It was the RV coachbuilders that were involved in a recall.  32 PSI puts dual tires riding at the load-profile they are designed for with a max rated load.  What it does not account for - is the constant overloading, and likely poor maintenance done by RV owners.  Toyota built cab & chassis trucks for many years after they cancelled the Hilux HD truck in the USA. Note they did so with the 5 lug wheel, semi-floater and sold many trucks with SF rear axles, single tires, and higher load ratings then the duallies did here in the USA and Canada.  Single wheel Toyotas - with 5 lug wheels and the same semi-floating rears USA trucks had before 1986 - into the 2000s - have . . . 6200 lb. GVWR in Australia, 6100 lb. GVWR in Europe, and 6325 lb. GVWR in Thailand.
 

[Derek up North]

TOYOTA released that spec sheet, not an RV manufacturer.

Yes, the industry standard if there's no 'profile' number is NOMINALLY. 82%. All the dimensions are nominal other than the rim diameter (14").

[linda s]

Yup Dan your right. I checked a Toyota brochure and Toyota specified 6 ply for the dual wheel cab and chassis but 8 ply for the single wheel cab and chassis and the 1 ton model even back in 86. Learn something new all the time. Makes me wonder why all the Toyota camper sites insist that only the 8 ply is strong enough

Linda S

[zero]

 Hey Linda, what the heck does Dan have to do with it? I posted the page from the Toyota cab & chassis book that shows they used 6-ply rated tires. Posted those pages on this forum many times.  Nissan/Datsun shipped their cab & chassis trucks with 8 ply-rated tires early on.  Dastun even used 8 plys in 1978 ;when Toyota was only using 6 ply-rated tires on the single-rear tire trucks.

[linda s]

Yes I guess you did. By the way my 1986 Nissan V6 Sunrader the tire specs are for a 6 ply LT195/75/14

Linda S

[Derek up North]

7,50-14? E78-14? I thought those were crossply sizes.

[zero]

 I have the cab & chassis books for 1983 and 1984 NIssan/Datsun, but nothing newer.  1983 and 1984 dual-wheel EN-720 came with bias-ply E78-14" tires with an 8 ply rating, mounted on 5.5" wheels.  195SR14 tires are shown for the standard longbed pickups JG720 and NG720, mounted on 5" wheels.

[DanAatTheCape]

I would like to state that we should all recognize that these campers are running around very close to max weight BEFORE we put our stuff and bodies in them.

Mine, (93 Winnie warrior) came with 6 ply - I run 8plys as they were easier to get when I bought tires last.  Even though there are documents showing ridicously low tire pressures - like 32psi for dual rear tires.  I run mine at 65psi (the max allowed) and I can clearly see the tires are loaded.

 

The mfg (Winnebago) had placarded 6 ply at 50psi - the max for 6 ply (class C) tires.

 

As the Ford Explorer debacle showed a few years back (many operators were using low tire pressure for a better ride - as recommended by Ford Dealers/ mfg.  There were a number of loss of control accidents.  At 65psi, if I have a rear tire failure at highway speed I darn sure want the lone survivor at full load capacity.

 

Also, it is obvious that Toyota miscalculated - when they had the early cab & chassis out there with 5 lug wheels and single rear wheel bearings they were way under where they need to be.  It is technically accurate to state that the rv mfg had to do the recalls, but the reality is that ALL of these toy C&C 's had to be beefed up, excepting a few early generation rv's that were actually light enough to "work" safely.  The RV mfg bought "incomplete" chassis and hence they (the RV mfg) were responsible for the recall.   I have read in this forum that the recalls were voluntary.  I thought they were mandatory - I am sure that if the mfg had not "voluntarily" recalled they would have quickly found themselves under a mandatory recall.  It really does not matter now if they were vol or man, anyone running a 5 lug non floating rear axle is playing with fire.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by DanAatTheCape

[zero]

1 hour ago, DanAatTheCape said:

 

As the Ford Explorer debacle showed a few years back (many operators were using low tire pressure for a better ride - as recommended by Ford Dealers/ mfg.  There were a number of loss of control accidents.  At 65psi, if I have a rear tire failure at highway speed I darn sure want the lone survivor at full load capacity.

Also, it is obvious that Toyota miscalculated - when they had the early cab & chassis out there with 5 lug wheels and single rear wheel bearings they were way under where they need to be. 

"Loss or control" accidents with Fords?  Yes, and that shows exactly what?  Ford had NO issues on the same vehicles (Explorers and Rangers) with the same size tires and same PSIG recommendations when equipped with Goodyear Wrangler tires.  The problems only happened when Firestone tires were used. And with all the deaths that were reported?  Many of those accidents were from unsafe speeds and unsafe cornering and PSIG ratings below what Ford called for.  Lots of BS in that story.  The only recall that was demanded by the National Highway Safety Admin was  against Firestone.  Ford got involved since they used Firestones OEM on many of the vehicles.  Nothing was ever proved about low tire pressure recommendations having anything to do with it. Just a defect in manufacture at two Firestone tire factories in the USA.

And about Toyota.  I see nothing "obvious" where they miscalulated anything except maybe the level of USA owner and user ignorance?  Toyota was/is still making/sellng HD cab & chassis trucks all over the world into the late 2000s with 5 lug wheels and semi-floating rear axles - just like they used here in 70s-80s-90s.  Single wheels in back and GVWRs over 6000 lbs.  They just had to stop doing it in the USA and Canada due to the stupid things RV makers and owners were doing.  Especially the add-on dual wheel kits that put a huge offset on the back wheels and too much stress on the semi-floating axles and bearings. It is no wonder that Toyota stopped selling the Hilux all together in the USA around 1995.  Too many fools using them wrong.

Again - I say that mechanically - Toyota miscalculated NOTHING.  Since you say otherwise - post some facts that back it up.  

On the subject of radial tires - they are design to ride with a certain loaded profile. I.e they are supposed to look a little flat when riding as designed.  That is solely determined by PSIG and weight bearing down on the  tire.  32 PSIG on a dual wheel setup with 14" tires, riding at the absolute MAX GVWR that Toyota ever allowed - puts those tires exactly where they are supposed to be.    Setting up a motorhome so if one tire blows - the one single tire left can bear the load that two were supposed to do will of course mean a higher PSIG setting.    That's called "redundancy", not a proper PSIG for normal running with four good tires.

185R-14" tires @ 32 PSIG on a dually setup have a correct loaded-radius profile with 4400 lbs.  What a coincidence since the max rear axle rating is 4400 lbs.

185R-14" tirese @ 65 PSIG on a dually setup have a max collective load capacity of 7,496 lbs. and that with a max 4400 lb. rear axle and that makes sense???

[zero]

2 hours ago, DanAatTheCape said:

 

Also, it is obvious that Toyota miscalculated - when they had the early cab & chassis out there with 5 lug wheels and single rear wheel bearings they were way under where they need to be. 

Looks like poor stupid Toyota is still "miscalculating."  Here is the new 2016 HD Hilux with the same 5 lug wheels, wheel-studs, and wheel-bearings and  semi-floating axles as the Toyotas had here before 1986.
And they even have the nerve to rate it with a 6446 lb. GVWR.    Hard to imagine how they get away with it in all of Earth except parts of North America.

[DanAatTheCape]

On 2016-05-15 at 1:33 PM, jdemaris said:

Looks like poor stupid Toyota is still "miscalculating."  Here is the new 2016 HD Hilux with the same 5 lug wheels, wheel-studs, and wheel-bearings and  semi-floating axles as the Toyotas had here before 1986.
And they even have the nerve to rate it with a 6446 lb. GVWR.    Hard to imagine how they get away with it in all of Earth except parts of North America.

if they have a floating axle, assuming that means 2 bearings per side - that would address the axle issues relative to the early gen cab & chassis that had one bearing per side.  can't tell from the pics, but the wheel tires look pretty substantial compared to the doughnuts we have.   Add in a heavier C&C which allows more of the total weight to be carried up front  then things seem more reasonable.  The weight on our rvs is about 2/3rds on rear axle.

[linda s]

Toyota raised the GVWR on the 1 ton 1000lbs just by adding the staggered shocks and a heavier spring pack. This could have even more upgrades that don't show in this ad.

Linda S