Valuable moral lesson learned, about how NOT to save money

[payaso del mar]

here's a pic or 2 of what my life has been lately: 

 

Reassembling motor home suspension.........note the absence of upper ball joint. pile of chinese crap didn't fit. it was the correct part but the taper on the pin was ground wrong, so it would have left a big gap instead of the rubber boot pressing firmly against the steering knuckle (which I think it needs to do to keep the grease in and the crud out). found this out after i'd stripped out two of the bolts that came with it, with an accurate torque wrench set to 20 ft lbs. Almost had to resort to a cutting wheel to get em out. compare this pic of the 32 yr old original bolts with the chineez ones: 

and when i move the pin, i can feel a grinding.....don't think i'd feel comfy on Mexico 2 through the Sierra Madre with those.....should have spent the extra $ for real japanese part. now i'm out $34 cost of chineez ones (too late to return em) plus $100 cost of jap ones plus $25 express shipping to get em here.   @##@%^#%&%$#!@$%$*%$^.

just buy jap parts. they cost more (3x as much in this case) but they fit and the hardware isn't crap. and more importantly, they are made by people with the attitude of "let's do it right" instead of "how cheap can we make this and still have the stupid Americans buy it?"  I knew all this and still tried to cheap out due to the sheer  $ volume i'm having to throw into this thing.  false economy.......

Edited April 21, 2016 by payaso del mar

[Bob C]

Some things I will go cheap on, suspension and engine parts are not on that list.  I wait for the real Toyota parts for the critical stuff.

[WME]

Brand and source of the junque?

[zero]

I don't get the doom and gloom.  If you bought on set of parts that you feel are inferior to OEM - what does that have to do with all else out there?   I have never, ever, bought OEM and have done just fine.  All the new suspension parts in my 1978 Toyota were aftermarket.  Most in a Beck-Arnley box and made in Japan or Korea with a few not marked for origin.  Ball joints, pitman arms, tie-rod ends. All great quality and perfect fit. The Beck-Arnley tie-rod ends have "made in Japan" on them.  Ball-joints marked with the brand of DLZ and no origin mark. Pitman arm is marked with the brand GMB and made in Korea.  I will also note that some of the parts I got were made by Aisin of Japan - the same company Toyota uses as a supplier.

[Totem]

I'm with Bob C on this one. Never cheap out on suspension , or brakes. if going aftermarket make sure its a trusted name. I wont even touch anything under my dodge unless its Moog for example.

[zero]

15 minutes ago, Totem said:

I'm with Bob C on this one. Never cheap out on suspension , or brakes. if going aftermarket make sure its a trusted name. I wont even touch anything under my dodge unless its Moog for example.

To "each his own." Moog was bought out by Federal Mogul  years ago and they have many factories in China. I've used a lot of off-brand suspension parts every bit as good as parts that came with the old Moog brand name.

[payaso del mar]

  If you bought on set of parts that you feel are inferior to OEM - what does that have to do with all else out there?

JD, i'm not saying you might not get decent stuff.  but you don't know for sure what you're getting most of the time.  even those examples you cite....sounds like you didn't know exactly what you were going to get.  and on this, it's not that I "feel" it's inferior to OEM....my torque wrench does too, and you're enough of a mechwhiz to look at those bolts and see the quality difference.  And i'm not used to feeling grinding when I move the pin on a brand new ball n socket joint....does NOT fill me with confidence for the single most stressed joint in the front suspn.  I suspect there's a reason that Toyota doesn't build their vehicles with the Chinese parts......and it might have something to do with their rep for quality.  my Taco is still on the original ball joints, tie rod ends, etc at 223K and the front end feels tight.....I don't think Chinese parts would have gone this long or feel this good. 

Bob and Totem, that was my point.  I deviated from my "buy Jap" rule this time.  I learned.  IMHO, there are some things that China makes just fine....usually stuff involving cast iron, like brake rotors and drums.  but anything involving rubber-ish portion....the Japanese rubber is so far ahead of everything else out there in terms of quality and life expectancy that it's ridiculous.

WME, brand was Mevotech, got em at RockAuto.

[Derek up North]

Chinese Toyotas (for years):-

http://www.reuters.com/article/toyota-china-idUST8357820081027

[jjrbus]

When is the last time you had your torque wrench calibrated?

$6 tie rod ends scare me.   I am not that skilled at mechanical work, not real keen on doing it and do not want to do anything twice. So I will spend the money for brand name parts, makes me feel better.

 

[payaso del mar]

been a while, but I've been tightening 8mm bolts for 45 years and have a pretty good idea of how much torque they can take before you're in danger of stripping them, and it's a hell of a long way north of 20 ft lbs.....i'd guess maybe double that.   the two bolts that stripped never even felt like they were tightening up.

the other good lesson here is to never toss the old piece til it's all back together, and I usually save any hardware even then.  darn glad I had the old bolts......they stood up to my uncalibrated torque wrench OK. 

[zero]

5 hours ago, payaso del mar said:

    I suspect there's a reason that Toyota doesn't build their vehicles with the Chinese parts......and it might have something to do with their rep for quality. 

Toyota (according to company reps) has a long tradition of not adopting new technology or new parts suppliers unless time-proven.  I suspect as more Chinese companies get good reputations - Toyota will buy from them just like all the other auto makers.

[Derek up North]

3 hours ago, payaso del mar said:

... it's a hell of a long way north of 20 ft lbs.....I'd guess maybe double that.

http://electronicfilters.tpub.com/TM-10-4330-237-13P/css/TM-10-4330-237-13P_105.htm

[zero]

Just about all the bolts I've found in my Toyotas are the equivalent to a SAE grade 5.  Metric grade 8.8. (except in a few high-stress areas).  An 8 mm bolt with grade 8.8 is basically the same size and tensile strength as a SAE 5/16", grade 5  bolt.  Has a max torque of 22 lbs. That pretty much goes along with the chart Derek linked to.

[payaso del mar]

ok, my pulled-out-of my-butt figure of 40 is high.  but max recommended torque is a long durn way shy of where it will (or at least should) strip.  recommended torque just means the bolt has stretched to where it will hold tight. 

as noted, the original 31 year old bolts stood up to the exact same procedure.  as have about a jillion Japanese, German and American 8mm threads I've tightened over the years.  JD, I know you understand the concept of the (admittedly very roughly calibrated) muscle-memory torque wrench.....ie, you get a feel for how much a particular size fastener should take after you've tightened enough of them.  I was a long way from that point......I never felt more than maybe 5 ft-lbs before they stripped.

look again at the pic of the bolts:  you're telling me you don't see any quality difference between those bolts?  and the quality or lack thereof of my torque wrench didn't cause the pin to not fit into the steering knuckle correctly, or the grinding feel when I move the pin.   I was posting my experience so others can learn from my stupidity. 

you're correct that eventually Toyota will buy Chinese parts and likely even build entire cars there. I suspect we've all seen the gradual improvement in Chinese tools etc.  WHEN the quality of the Chinese parts is up to Toyota's standards, i'll look at them*.   until then, i'll try to buy Japanese parts, especially for stuff that could toss me off a mountain road if it fails.

*by which time, the price advantage of buying Chinese will be gone.....

Edited April 23, 2016 by payaso del mar

[zero]

1 minute ago, payaso del mar said:

 

as noted, the original 31 year old bolts stood up to the exact same procedure.  as have about a jillion Japanese, German and American 8mm threads I've tightened over the years.  

look again at the pic of the bolts:  you're telling me you don't see any quality difference between those bolts? 

*by which time, the price advantage of buying Chinese will be gone.....

I have no doubt the bolts are crap.  But - I don't see any photos of the bolt-heads, How they are marked?   If they are marked 8.8 or 10.9 and stripped like that - I say the quality is awful.  But if there are NO grade marks - there are no requirements or standards involved - just like an American SAE grade 2 or ungraded bolt (and I'd never use them in anything but wood).

As far as the price advantage goes - why would it disappear? Plenty of aftermarket parts around now every bit as good as OEM and sometimes 1/3 the price.  Sometimes from Japan, sometimes Taiwan, and even sometimes China. Problem is - it is often a crap-shoot unless you are lucky to find a brand concerned about reputation.  That seems to be the case with foreign parts from Beck-Arnley and I'm sure others.

[payaso del mar]

pretty sure there were no grade markings on the heads.  I rarely see grade markings on Chinese hardware.  yeah, there may be no legal standards involved that were violated, but supplying them with a critical suspension part should* IMHO impose some sort of quality standard.  as you say, I guess it comes down to the mfgr's concern with their rep for quality.  apparently Mevotech isn't too concerned.

*I understand that "IMHO should" is worth the paper it's written on.......

[Derek up North]

You let us know about the problem. Did you let them know?

http://www.mevotech.com/contact/

[5Toyota]

I don't think china cares about safe standards or legalities.They could be and have been known to counterfeit  bolts and mark them falsely. I worked 40 years in manufacturing. I have heard of bolts marked grade 8 but really grade 4.

[jjrbus]

I agree with 5Toyota on this, if they are willing to counterfeit aircraft parts for the US military why would a simple bolt be an issue?

Counterfeit electronic parts from China are "flooding" into critical U.S. military systems, including special operations helicopters and surveillance planes, and are putting the nation's troops at risk, according to a new U.S. Senate committee report.

A year-long investigation conducted by the Senate Armed Services Committee found more than one million suspected counterfeit parts made their way into the Department of Defense's supply chain and were bound for use by "critical" military systems, according to the 70-plus-page document released Monday. In addition to Navy helicopters and surveillance planes, the parts were slated to be put into the Air Force's newest cargo planes.

[zero]

I heard the same doom and gloom about Japanese parts since the late 50s.  The simple fact is that some Chinese stuff is great quality and some is crap.  Certainly has been US made parts that are crap also.  Like the big o-rings that failed on the space-shuttle Challenger? There is a case of parts that were known to be inferior, got used anyway, and killed some people in a public way.

When it comes to bolts - I have gotten inferior bolts many times with car parts and it often looks like they are thrown in as an afterthought and not up to the quality of the rest of the product.  I specifically asked about the bolt-head markings since I want to know if they WERE mis-marked (i.e. counterfeit) - or just were just the wrong bolts for the job. I've got piles of Chinese bolts here in my shop that are grade-marked so they certainly do exist;. I would not use any bolt to hold steel parts together anyway unless it was grade-marked in some way.  Not unless it was a specialty bolt like a rolled-thread head-bolt or rod-bolt.

On a side-note - I find much of the hardware that Toyota uses to be crap - going by my personal standards.  I've had many a bolt with the threads just slightly stuck and when I turn the nut - the bolt breaks.  Obviously weaker then a SAE grade 5 or metric 8.8 on those - there were no markings.  Usually on low-stress areas of the truck and not on the suspension. Also, at least in the 70s-80s Toyota trucks - if Toyota has grade marks on the bolts - they often don't follow normal metric standards. Instead of a metric 8.8 or 10.9 (equiv to SAE6 grade 5 and 8), Toyota has "4T", 5T", 6T", etc.  Many of the 8 mm bolts from my truck are "4T" with a max torque of 11 foot lbs.   Note that a US SAE grade 5 bolt of the same size can be torqued to 22 lbs. and if Toyota used it - it would have a 7T marking.  On my 1978 Toyota - there are 8 mm bolts holding the driveshaft support on that are 4T, and also 8 mm bolts holding the U-joint flanges and they are marked 6T.  If this was an American truck - those bolts would be grade 8.  So with that reference frame, those OEM bolts are substandard..  But Jap trucks and cars were known for using what was adequate and not going overboard.

For 8 mm bolts - tightening torque is shown as thus by Toyota: 
8 mm X 1.25 grade 4T - 8-11 foot lbs.
8 mm X 1.25 grade 5T - 11-15 foot lbs.
8 mm X 1.25 grade 6T - 11-15 foot lbs
8 mm X 1.25 grade 7T - 15-21 foot lbs.

I've tested many a bolt by sticking in a vise and then trying to break it. Chinese bolts, US bolts from Tractor Supply, etc.  For a while - Tractor Supply was selling bolts from Canada that did NOT pass the torque test for a grade 5 or grade 8 bolt (NOT Chinese).  I think they changed suppliers and the new stuff is fine.

When it comes to aftermarket parts for my Toyota - I have never gotten an inferior part yet when I ordered with the Beck/Arlney brand name so there is at least one company that keeps an eye on things.  Parts I get with that brand name are often made in Japan, sometimes Taiwan, and rarely China (at least so far). Some are the same OEM parts that Toyota uses and some even come in Toyota bags.

[jjrbus]

I had one of those moments, becoming leary of Chinese parts I was looking at a part and it said "MADE IN JAPAN" and I thought great!!   It was not that long ago I would not have bought anything made in Japan.  Well,  not long ago by oak tree time lines.

[payaso del mar]

I checked the bolts this weekend and no, no grade markings whatsoever.  the cotters that came with the ball joints were also way undersized relative to the hole....I had to buy the correct size ones separately. 

i'm not trying to "spread doom and gloom", just report my experience in hope others can learn from my error..........      i'll keep that in mind on Beck/Arnley

Derek, no, I haven't bothered contacting the mfgr, for (among others) the reasons that 5Toy and JJR mentioned.  I have no interest in being subjected to more corporate schpeil about how much they care about quality, from people who think I should install my ball joints with ungraded bolts..........

[payaso del mar]

well, my Japanese ball joints and tie rod ends came in Friday and I installed em this weekend.  JD, you're right, the Beck/Arnley stuff is excellent quality and from Japan.  look at these pix comparing the Chinese and Jap parts:

first, the tie rod ends:  the Jap one (Beck/Arnley) at the top came with a zerk fitting and substantial cotter pin, the threads are nicer, and you can feel a huge difference in the pliability of the rubber boot.  also note the smaller-diameter "nub" at the end of threads, to aid in seating it.  would you rather rely on a nylock nut or a metal pin to ensure your steering doesn't come apart?

next, the upper ball joints.  Jap one (Sankei 555)  is to the right.  once again, big difference in pliability of rubber boot.  and it actually comes with graded bolts and a good sized cotter pin....compare the cotter sizes.

[linda s]

I buy Beck Arnley whenever I can but it's nice to see the difference from the cheap stuff.

Linda S

[Maineah]

You don't have to try hard to know quality when you see it.

[Jaunt]

This is why I buy factory Toyota parts 95% of the time.

Although you'd be surprised those are being made in China more and more now...

Edited May 3, 2016 by Jaunt

[payaso del mar]

to clarify, I was NOT trying to say one had to buy Toyota-branded stuff....you get great stuff but OMG do you pay.  that might be the one exception to my skepticism about China Inc:  if Toyota puts their name on it, some QC is going on.  rear brake drums for Taco were over 300 from toy dealer; next set will come from you-know-where instead! 

Partsgeek usually has the stuff from the OEM suppliers for most Japanese vehicles......way more $ than the cheap Chinese stuff but lots less than same items with Toyota branding.

[5Toyota]

a lock nut and no cotter I would not use that stuff . the boots look cheap don't see a clamp on that cheap tie rod end. as they say one look is all it took .

[Jaunt]

10 hours ago, payaso del mar said:

to clarify, I was NOT trying to say one had to buy Toyota-branded stuff....you get great stuff but OMG do you pay.  that might be the one exception to my skepticism about China Inc:  if Toyota puts their name on it, some QC is going on.  rear brake drums for Taco were over 300 from toy dealer; next set will come from you-know-where instead! 

Partsgeek usually has the stuff from the OEM suppliers for most Japanese vehicles......way more $ than the cheap Chinese stuff but lots less than same items with Toyota branding.

yup to all

[Totem]

LOL omg no castle nut??? that's straight up death suspension. nylock nut on that is absolutely asking for trouble

All of my tie rod ends I've ever had from any make always have castle nut and cotter; even the tiny ones on my 4 wheeler

 

[Derek up North]

You'll like this one then!

http://images.apwcontent.com/is/image/Autos/w0133-1766589_is?wid=250&hei=250&DefaultImage=noimage

[Totem]

Yeeeeeeeah.... no.

[payaso del mar]

LOL omg no castle nut??? that's straight up death suspension. nylock nut on that is absolutely asking for trouble

All of my tie rod ends I've ever had from any make always have castle nut and cotter; even the tiny ones on my 4 wheeler

yeah, i'm debating drilling them for cotters, nylock or no.  I agree, never seen nylox used in lieu of pinning....bienvenidos a China

[Derek up North]

Actually, if you look at Google Images, there are quite a few examples that use a Nyloc instead of a castle nut.

[Totem]

There are also images of darwin award winners too. Nylock has its place but only in countries without tort.