Generator & 120V Plug-In Questions

[Campernoob]

Hello and thank you for taking the time to look at my post. I am a proud new owner of a 1989 Toyota Sunrader. This is my first time owning a motorhome (MH) & I have very much to learn. I purchased this MH to live in as I travel the country for a few months. It has a working overhead AC unit but no on-board generator. I have absolutely no knowledge about generators (or MHs) & was hoping to get some advice/recommendations for a good portable generator that would have enough power to run the AC unit and possibly 1 or 2 small appliances (laptop, microwave) concurrently. I've been told to run the AC unit I would need at minimum a 3K watt gen, and from what I've seen those generators are enormous! Does anyone know if a more compact gen exists (affordability is a factor) that could handle the job? Or will I need to invest in & install a rear rack to lock a large gen onto? Also, can I plug the MHs power cable directly into the generator to run the AC, and then also use the interior 120V outlets?

So in summary I'm looking for a generator that can power my Sunrader's AC unit along with providing power to the interior electrical outlets -- considerations include: affordability, portability (smaller=better), & noise level (quieter=better).

Lastly, separate from the generator issue - I've been told that I can't/shouldn't use the AC when plugged into residential power via standard power extension cord, that it would blow a circuit. What type of power cord do I need to run the AC while plugged into a private residence (120V)? From what I've seen 15 amp cords are the ones that plug into standard residential 120V outlets, and 30 amp cords will only plug into 120V power at parks, correct? So is it just the size/gauge of the cable that matters, meaning can I use a 10 or 12-gauge extension cord to plug into a residential 120V outlet & use my AC without damaging anything?

Like I said & my name states, I'm a total newbie. Thank you so much for reading this & any help you can give.

[Alvin]

At my old house, I used 15 amp cables and that was not wise. They heat up, and anyway, I would trip the breaker after 10 minutes running AC.

At my new house, I had the electrician wire up 40amp service for both 220VAC RV and also for 120VAC like my odyssey. You need 8 or 10 gauge wires, and should run 30amp service to your RV. If you need extension cables, bigger conductors are better.

The generator in my rig was not cheap. It's a 30-amp Generac QP-40, but runs steady and quiet under full load including AC and microwave oven at the same time. 3600-Watts. To put it in, you need some kind of manual or automatic transfer switch....you only switch to generator after it's running, and ALWAYS disconnect from generator before killing the generator. Forgetting to disconnect will subject your appliances to 60Hz to 0Hz wave forms which they were not designed for, as well as fluctuating undefined AC voltages. I did this once and blew a rectifier module in the Generac generator....2 hour repair job and $100 dollars. Lucky that's all that happened.

More about the transfer switch. It can be as simple as an RV plug installed as the generators output where you keep your RV AC docking cable coiled up. Here is the proceedure to connect:

1. Make sure RV is unplugged and the main breaker is off.

2. Start the generator and wait for it to stabilize as needed. About 10 seconds for my Generac.

3. Plug in the RV AC power docking cable to generator output.

4. Flip house breaker back to "ON" and use any appliances up to 3600watts.

With an automatic transfer switch, it senses when the generator is powered on and stable, then it transfers automatically. Also senses if generator suddenly starts to die, for quick disconnect. Much safer.

[Alvin]

My Odyssey has a generator compartment in the rear passenger-side corner, under a clothes closet behind the toilet. It has a door on the outside and the Generac generator fits inside perfectly. When I bought my rig, the generator was sitting there, all brand-new, not connected to fuel or power. Previous owners bought it and never finished the install...so it was new. Not sure if you have a compartment in your sunrader, so I don't know where you might put one. But I do recommend the Generac, it's been very reliable.

Don't know if this helps, but here is the posts I started when I was a noobie, trying to work out fuel and generator issues:

http://toyotamotorhome.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3048&hl=alvin

[linda s]

Here you go

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/rvs/4514332302.html

This has been for sale for a while. offer less but it should fit in your compartment. See if he still has the mounting brackets. Onan is the only manufacturer currently making permanently installed RV generators.

Linda S

Did you buy the Sunrader that was for sale in Davis a while back?

[Maineah]

2800 watts should run your A/C but if you are going to use a microwave turn off the A/C then restart it when you are done. Unfortunately RV generators are not cheap unless you can find a nice used one and a cheap carry around one is going to be very noisy. The RV plug is just that it is an RV plug it is the only thing that uses that configuration. It is a 30 amp 120 volt plug made only for RV's they do sell parts the best place would be a commercial electrical supply house if you want to wire one to the house. Your A/C is wired for a 20 amp draw the little adaptor plug for the 30 amp connection is only rated for 15 amps will it carry more? Probably. Even a short extension 25' will require a #12 wire. You would be better off pulling out the RV cord and plugging it in directly to a house with the adaptor. Most house outlets are 15 amp look for a receptacle that has a sideways “T” (I- ) that will be a 20 amp receptacle and you would be less likely to trip it.

[Bob C]

The best way to Plug the RV in at home is to install a 30 amp outlet. The only cost about $10 plus the mounting box and some wire. If you have a friend that knows electricity, he (or she) can do the job in about 20 minutes. My total cost was $15 and I did the work myself.

The person I bought my RV from used a 12 gauge 50' cord to plug into her garage. I turned the A/C on for 10 minutes and that cord was hot to the touch.

I have since removed my roof A/C so my 30 amp outlet is overkill.

[zero]

Also, can I plug the MHs power cable directly into the generator to run the AC, and then also use the interior 120V outlets?

So in summary I'm looking for a generator that can power my Sunrader's AC unit along with providing power to the interior electrical outlets -- considerations include: affordability, portability (smaller=better), & noise level (quieter=better).

Lastly, separate from the generator issue - I've been told that I can't/shouldn't use the AC when plugged into residential power via standard power extension cord, that it would blow a circuit. What type of power cord do I need to run the AC while plugged into a private residence (120V)? From what I've seen 15 amp cords are the ones that plug into standard residential 120V outlets, and 30 amp cords will only plug into 120V power at parks, correct? So is it just the size/gauge of the cable that matters, meaning can I use a 10 or 12-gauge extension cord to plug into a residential 120V outlet & use my AC without damaging anything?

Like I said & my name states, I'm a total newbie. Thank you so much for reading this & any help you can give.

Depends on several factors. Size of the AC unit and if it has a good set of starting capacitors in it.

If you have a 13,000 BTU AC unit - it's going to draw around 13 amps when running and up to near 30 amps for the first second or two when it tries to start. That means you need a generator with a high surge rating. You cannot just go by the advertised wattage output. A generator with a 3600 watt surge rating is the minimum. For example. Home Depot sells a "Powerstroke 2500 watt generator" for $300. Has a 20 amp continuous rating (2500 watts) but . .; only had a 3100 watt surge rating. NOT enough. Make sure you buy something with adequate full-time and surge ratings. You can buy a Chinese-made "Sportsman 4000 watt" generator for less then $300. Has a 33 amp continuous rating (4000 watts) and a 50 amp surge rating (6100 watts). That will do the job but be noisy.

On the subject of extension cords - it's all about total length of wire running from the power source to the AC unit. The AC already has around 10 feet of wire inside the RV. If your cord is 30 feet long - that's 40 feet total. If you add a 25 foot extension cord - that makes 65 feet. You'd need a cord made with #10 copper wire. Most cheaper cords will be 14-16 gauge. Those called "HD" are often only 12 gauge. 10 gauge cords are specialty items and expensive. If you wanted to use a 50 foot extension cord - you'd need something with #8 copper. Lowes sells a 25 foot 10 gauge cord but it's over $100. I made my own year's ago from some 10/2 Romex. Not very flexible but does the job.

On the subject of generators - there are two basic types. AC generators and Inverter generators. AC generators can only make proper power at one fixed speed so they can be noisy. Inverter generators make DC current and send it though a full-wave inverter to make AC power. So they can make 60 cycle 110-120 VAC any speed. They also cost a lot more then conventional AC generators. If you only plan on using your generator when you need a lot of power - they both will be running near full speed. The difference is when you only have a small load. An inverter generator can power a small stuff with the engine idling, whereas an AC generator still has to run full speed.

[zero]

I forgot to mention the "hard start" kits available for AC units. They make the AC units start with less surge.

I suggest you go to this link and read this guy's rooftop AC story when he had trouble with a pair of generators keeping up. Good write-up.

http://www.loveyourrv.com/installing-hard-start-capacitor-into-my-rv-air-conditioner/

[linda s]

Size of the air conditioner makes a big difference in the advice we need to give. The original AC in my Sunrader was only 7000 BTU's. Would be a good idea if you check and give us the make and model and BTU's if you can find it. The generators supplied in all Sunraders as an option was a Kohler with only 2500 watts so if your Sunrader still has an original AC system it probably isn't 13000 BTU's. Been a lot of years though and quite likely it has been switched out to a newer one

Linda S

[zero]

Size of the air conditioner makes a big difference in the advice we need to give. The original AC in my Sunrader was only 7000 BTU's. Would be a good idea if you check and give us the make and model and BTU's if you can find it. The generators supplied in all Sunraders as an option was a Kohler with only 2500 watts so if your Sunrader still has an original AC system it probably isn't 13000 BTU's. Been a lot of years though and quite likely it has been switched out to a newer one

Linda S

As I recall the 2.5 KW Kohler uses a more accurate "title" then many newer generators. If it was for sale today it would likely be called a 3 or 3.2 KW generator - so the numbers are little misleading. I don't have a spec sheet but I believe it is rated 2500 watts continuous and up to a 3300 watts momentary surge rating. Something like a newer Onan Microlite 2.5 RV generator today will only be rated 2.2 KW continuous and 2.5 for the momentary surge. My point being that you need to know both ratings and cannot go by the label many of these gensets are sold by.

Also the 7100 BTU Coleman AC units can draw up to 40 amps at first start - not unlike the bigger ones. They just do it for a shorter amount of time and certainly draw less when running and not starting.

Generators can be very confusing unless detailed specs are given - and often they are not. "Surge" rating - to be accurate - need to be given with time frames. E.g. "40 amps for 1/2 of a second", "30 amps for 2 seconds", "20 amps continuous" , etc. Many makers do not give these specs. So sometimes you don't find out what will work until you actually plug it in and try it. That is a good reason to buy bigger then what you think you need.

[fred heath]

My Coleman mini-mach 111 is about 7k btu. My Onan microlite 2800 runs the a/c and coffee pot at the same time with no problems.

Like Linda said, determine your total amp draw when looking at a generator.

I've run 30' of 12/2 extension cord to my unit with no noticeable loss of power or performance.

[Maineah]

My Onan Microlite 2.8 ran my Nova Star A/C just fine like Fred said left over power to run other things. Don't guess they would have installed a generator if it would not have run the A/C.

[linda s]

I have the manual for my Kohler 2500 and it doesn't give detailed specs but it does say will start and run 13,500BTU AC unit. The Onan specs for the 2800 say will start and run 13,500 Ac unit with 300 watts left over. Sounds like they are still rating generators the same as the old days

Linda S

[zero]

. Sounds like they are still rating generators the same as the old days

Linda S

A 2800 watt Microlite can provide surge current up around 3500 wats for a second or two. Selling it as a 2800 watt generator was what I call "fair and accurate."

Many sellers use numbers differently. Buy a “2800” watt generator from Amazon and get a unit that can only surge to 2800 watts and run 2500 watts continuous (and not really even that much). That is a HUGE difference. Subsequently one can run a AC unit and the other cannot –even though they are both sold as 2.8 KW generators.

Many, many generators and inverters are sold presently with bogus numbers. I’ve tested many myself here and kept good records.

Bogus ratings was and is a big problem for people living on solar electric that depend on electric generators on dark days. Many not only do not produce the wattage as advertised –some also make poor electrical current. That is a big issue with solar users because some generators cannot power battery chargers properly. Why? What we call “120 volts” is actually 170 volts that swings back and forth with the Hertz Cycle. Good 120 volt power gives 170 volts at the peaks and valleys. Some cheap generators only make 150 volts and it causes many problems with certain appliances. In the past – Kohler and Kubota were known for making good generators. Not anymore since Kohler dropped out of the small genset market.

On the subject of extension cords. Just because someone says they used a certain cord and it “worked” – does not mean it isn’t damaging the AC unit. Wiring is usually calculated with no more then a 3% voltage drop. A typical RV will have 10 feet of hard-wiring and maybe a 25 foot attached cord. That is 35 feet. If the AC unit is 7100 BTUs – it needs 30 amps to start. Add another 15 amps for the converter and that makes 45 amps @ 35 feet. 10 gauge copper will result in a 2.6% voltage drop which is fine. Add an extra 25 foot cord that is only 12 gauge? That brings the total voltage drop to 5.6%. That shortens the life of the motor in the AC unit. Put a 50 foot 12 gauge cords on there and the total drop is 8.5%. Again – can that work? Yes, sometimes, for awhile. It is good? Not according to me and not according to any of the companies that make the AC units.

Coleman states that for their 7100 BTU AC unit – total wire length with 12 gauge wire is a max of 50 feet. Up to 75 feet calls for #10 copper. So with an RV that already has 35 feet of wire built-in –that means Coleman calls for a 12 gauge cord no longer then 15 feet, or a 10 gauge cord no longer then 75 feet. If #8 copper – a 90 foot cord can be used.

[fred heath]

Not sure where the 35' of interior wiring comes from.

Having totally rewired my coach with both 12v and 120v, I've got about 18' of 12 AWG from the shore plug to the a/c unit.

The a/c also has a dedicated circuit breaker separate from the remaining coach appliances.

In NC I run my rooftop Coleman continuous on hot days. There are no hard-start problems nor does the extension cord get warm. My a/c unit is the original Coleman installed in 1979. Still running strong.

[zero]

Not sure where the 35' of interior wiring comes from.

Having totally rewired my coach with both 12v and 120v, I've got about 18' of 12 AWG from the shore plug to the a/c unit.

The a/c also has a dedicated circuit breaker separate from the remaining coach appliances.

In NC I run my rooftop Coleman continuous on hot days. There are no hard-start problems nor does the extension cord get warm. My a/c unit is the original Coleman installed in 1979. Still running strong.

Not sure how to say it any clearer. I stated 10 feet of interior wiring (hard wiring) and the attached extension cord most RVs have. My 1988 Minicruiser has 10 feet of wire in the walls and a 25 foot attached flexible power cord -so it has 35 feet of wire running to the AC unit. If I added a 25 foot extension cord -that would make the total wire run 60 feet. Most RVs I've seen have attached flexible cords like mine. If you removed your's - it makes things different.

You say you've got a total run of 18 feet from the shore plug to the AC unit. If you have 10 feet of wire in the walls - that leaves 8 feet for an extension cord you are using . Are you talking about using an 8 foot cord or a 30 foot cord that you mentioned earlier?

Besides that - there is one other variable. The outlet being used for "shorepower." A house may have a 20 amp receptacle that is 50 feet from main distribution panel. That already has loss and must be factored in. One house might have an outlet that has 10 gauge wire and is only 25 feet from the distribution panel. Another might be 12 gauge and 50 feet and yet another might be 14 gauge and 50 feet. All very different. When an RV plugs into a power-box at a campsite it tends to be heavier with less voltage drop potential. No matter what - the voltage drop and loss is determined by the distance of the one-way wire-run versus the amperage. If power comes from someones residential electrical service and hooked to an RV - that is the total distance from the main service panel (not the outlet) to the AC unit.

[fred heath]

I actually have a recessed male plug on the outside of the coach. The extension cord runs from the supply to the coach.

The 18' is 4' o/s plug to transfer switch, 4' return from transfer switch to panel, 10' from panel to a/c.

Perhaps I should have said 30' total run to coach.

Most residential o/s outlets are rated 15A. Rarely are they dedicated.

I've still had no problems using these outlets.

Best bet, try a cord. If it heats up or pops the house breaker, then time for the next size up.

Say for the sake of argument, you upgrade to a 10 AwG cord. You still can't exceed the amperage of the supply wire. Most 12 ga. cords can handle the brief surge caused by startup. If your source is wired with 14awg this discussion is mute.

[zero]

Most residential o/s outlets are rated 15A. Rarely are they dedicated.

Most modern residential outlets are wired on 20 amp circuits, not 15 amp. 20 amp circuits with 20 amp breakers, 10 or 12 gauge copper wire and the receptacles can be 15 amp or 20 amp duplexes. Many AC units that can draw as high a 30 amps at start-up surge only have 15 amp male plugs attached. In residential wiring - 15 amp circuits are only allowed for lighting by most versions of the NEC code adopted by US states. That or for dedicated appliances. Small appliance circuits are required to be 20 amps minimum. 15 amp or 20 amp receptacles are allowed to be used with those 20 amp circuits. A 20 amp circuit for duplex outlets when properly wired with 12 gauge wire is not supposed to be any further from the entrance panel than 35 feet. If 10 gauge copper is used a max of 55 feet is allowed for a 2% voltage drop. 90 feet with #8, 145 feet with #6, 225 feet with #4, etc. It's why big houses often have many branch-panels with big wire feeding them.

[fred heath]

Whatever.........

[Alvin]

An issue that should be brought up is that some elcheapo extension cables do not have the appropriate size conductors to carry the full load. I bought harbor freight cables once which were very sub par. For my odyssey, I use 30-feet of 8-AWG from my house dock shore power. I bought the wire and put on the plug heads myself.

The RV service dock was an add-on to my home construction when I had the house built in 2012. I had it set up for both 120VAC and 240VAC RV service. As jdemaris mentioned this service required some very large wire since it runs about 90-feet through the house from the main breaker electrical panel.

I don't trust cheap cables without testing them. I design power supplies and Ethernet switches and routers for the vehicle uses in the military (humv's, jeeps, tracked vehicles, Bradley tanks, and many many types of aircraft....my stuff has to work because lives depend on it, or can depend on it). I would not skimp on wire, but the connection points are major points of failure. Proper strain-relief is important.

[fred heath]

An issue that should be brought up is that some elcheapo extension cables do not have the appropriate size conductors to carry the full load. I bought harbor freight cables once which were very sub par. For my odyssey, I use 30-feet of 8-AWG from my house dock shore power. I bought the wire and put on the plug heads myself.

The RV service dock was an add-on to my home construction when I had the house built in 2012. I had it set up for both 120VAC and 240VAC RV service. As jdemaris mentioned this service required some very large wire since it runs about 90-feet through the house from the main breaker electrical panel.

I don't trust cheap cables without testing them. I design power supplies and Ethernet switches and routers for the vehicle uses in the military (humv's, jeeps, tracked vehicles, Bradley tanks, and many many types of aircraft....my stuff has to work because lives depend on it, or can depend on it). I would not skimp on wire, but the connection points are major points of failure. Proper strain-relief is important.

Someone here mentioned using NM cable as an extension cord. Both OSHA and NEC have issues with this as the connectors are not designed for this use. There is little or no strain-relief.

I tried to minimize drop by eliminating as many connection points as possible. I used approved cable with rated plugs.

A little pricy, but a good investment.

[zero]

Someone here mentioned using NM cable as an extension cord. Both OSHA and NEC have issues with this as the connectors are not designed for this use. There is little or no strain-relief.

I tried to minimize drop by eliminating as many connection points as possible. I used approved cable with rated plugs.

A little pricy, but a good investment.

I've got a 50 foot cord made NM or UF 10/2 cable. It was building a cabin and needed to get my air-compressor closer to where I was using a nail-gun. 12 gauge , 50 foot cord would not start the compressor. I already had a 250 foot roll of 10/2 NM -so I cut off 50 feet and put ends on it. Worked great then and still does when I need it. Not near as handy as a genuine extension cord since it's solid copper and not flexible-stranded wire. OSHA and the NEC mean nothing to me in this instance. OSHA has no say in what I do on my property and neither do the people who author the NEC. NEC is just a "suggested way to wire things." Means nothing until a particular government adopts the parts of it they want and make it law. The code police haven't gotten around to banning homeowners from making their own extension cords - yet.

[zero]

An issue that should be brought up is that some elcheapo extension cables do not have the appropriate size conductors to carry the full load. I bought harbor freight cables once which were very sub par.

I'm curious since I'm a long-time buyer of Harbor Freight stuff. I still have tools I got there over 30 years ago (before the Chinese invasion). Some stuff has been great (for the price) along with a few bloopers. With the extension cords you got - are you saying they were not the gauge wire they advertised to be? I've got a 100 foot 10 gauge HF cord and I know, for sure, it is 10 gauge. I drove over it with a bulldozer and had to splice it back together. Got a close look at the conductors.

[fred heath]

I've got a 50 foot cord made NM or UF 10/2 cable. It was building a cabin and needed to get my air-compressor closer to where I was using a nail-gun. 12 gauge , 50 foot cord would not start the compressor. I already had a 250 foot roll of 10/2 NM -so I cut off 50 feet and put ends on it. Worked great then and still does when I need it. Not near as handy as a genuine extension cord since it's solid copper and not flexible-stranded wire. OSHA and the NEC mean nothing to me in this instance. OSHA has no say in what I do on my property and neither do the people who author the NEC. NEC is just a "suggested way to wire things." Means nothing until a particular government adopts the parts of it they want and make it law. The code police haven't gotten around to banning homeowners from making their own extension cords - yet.

So, if I. Understand you correctly, it's ok to reference NEC when it supports(?) your position.

Otherwise it's just a regulatory agency infringing on the rights of homeowners.

Don't think you can have it both ways.

[zero]

So, if I. Understand you correctly, it's ok to reference NEC when it supports(?) your position.

Otherwise it's just a regulatory agency infringing on the rights of homeowners.

Don't think you can have it both ways.

Sure I can. NEC has been adopted by just about every state in the US for residential and comerical wiring. Not for my extension cord. You claimed houses usually have 15 amp circuits for duplex outlets. THAT is not true. They are 20 amps in most if not all states since that part of the NEC has become law. In regard to my extension cord - neither the state of New York or the people who dream up the NEC have any say in how I make an extension cord. How I wire the inside of my house with new circuitry -yes. I think you are beating a dead horse.

[Alvin]

I'm curious since I'm a long-time buyer of Harbor Freight stuff. I still have tools I got there over 30 years ago (before the Chinese invasion). Some stuff has been great (for the price) along with a few bloopers. With the extension cords you got - are you saying they were not the gauge wire they advertised to be? I've got a 100 foot 10 gauge HF cord and I know, for sure, it is 10 gauge. I drove over it with a bulldozer and had to splice it back together. Got a close look at the conductors.

I don't believe all of Harbor Freight's stuff is sub-par. Just with these two particular extension cords I bought. They started sparking and "plastic carbonization" at the female plug end. I was using my Odyssey at the time to live in while working on my old house and all I was driving was a couple of small space heaters in the Odyssey to keep warm through the night; a fully load for sure (I think the space heaters were 900-watts each). I had the extension cords plugged into the old house power and the 20-amp breaker didn't blow unless I tried to run A/C... after which 10 minutes would cause the breaker to blow.

It's possible that it was a result of cumulative stress on the wires, and by the time winter rolled around and the extension cords had enough, including being covered with Utah snow. Other 12-gauge extension cords I bought have not failed.

I'm sorry to say I didn't dissect the cables to see if they were really 12-gauge. They went right into the trash. As mentioned, the fail point was the cable ends. I should mention that the cables did get kinda warm.

[fred heath]

In the 30+ years I've been remodeling homes I cannot remember one house where the wiring met current code. A house built in 1980 conformed to 1980 code. Over the the years homeowners and "handymen" have altered the basic wiring to accommodate their immediate need.

Need AC power? Just grab the closest box and tap in there.

12 AWG is more expensive than 14AWG.

Builders do not use any bigger wire than they need to.

Even the "rare" house with 12 ga to the o/s usually has 15A outlets.

I can't debate code with you as I no longer receive the updates. 15 amp has always been standard for o/s outlets. GFCI is now required.

[Alvin]

Ahhh... the GFCI. I have a love/hate relationship with those things. In the new house I had built in 2012, those things are all over the place it seems. I'm still mapping which GFCI goes to what. Wanted outlets in Garage... GFCI. Outlets on the porch... GFCI. Outlets on the eves for Christmas lights... GFCI. Outlet in the furnace room... GFCI. Storage room... GFCI. Kitchen, yes, I knew I'd be getting GFCI there. Six bathrooms... all connected to GFCI's... but I have no idea which when goes where yet.

Pretty soon every outlet will be required to be a GFCI. lol

[Maineah]

It's 7%. Never yet seen seen a # 8 wire fit a duplex outlet.

[zero]

In the 30+ years I've been remodeling homes I cannot remember one house where the wiring met current code. A house built in 1980 conformed to 1980 code. Over the the years homeowners and "handymen" have altered the basic wiring to accommodate their immediate need.

Need AC power? Just grab the closest box and tap in there.

12 AWG is more expensive than 14AWG.

Builders do not use any bigger wire than they need to.

Even the "rare" house with 12 ga to the o/s usually has 15A outlets.

I can't debate code with you as I no longer receive the updates. 15 amp has always been standard for o/s outlets. GFCI is now required.

I worked as a residential electrician back in the late 70s in New Jersey and Vermont. Even then - 20 amps was required for new circuits having duplex outlets. Exceptions if just for lighting. Note the circuit was 20 amps along with wire with ample ampacity - i.e. 12 gauge copper. The duplex outlet themselves are still usually 15 amp rating at the plug and 20 amps pass-through. That is not something new. Hospitals and commercial locations usually require 20 amp duplexes that accept 15 amp and 20 amp male plugs.

In regard to old houses meeting current code for the region? Can't say I ever worked on one that conformed either. They are not required to. I still have some knob-and-tube wiring here in my barn and it is still 100% legal because it is grandfathered in. I think it's safe to say that any house that's been legally wired in the USA in the past 30-40 years has 20 amp circuits for duplexs.

[zero]

It's 7%. Never yet seen seen a # 8 wire fit a duplex outlet.

Running #8 wire to a duplex would be very difficult. I never suggested it. Thus the reason for installing multiple branch panels in large buildings and houses. A two story house with a basement that measures 50' X 75' can easily have a 140 foot distance from the entrance panel to the furthest outlet. 12 gauge wire is too small for a run that long. If #8 was used - it would have the desired max voltage drop of 3%. Using #8 isn't cost-effective for one small circuit. One answer is to install a branch panel on the 2nd floor. Like a centrally located 80 amp panel fed by #2 cable. Then all the circuits upstairs can be wired to it and max distance to any will be kept to 60 feet or less. 14 gauge for light circuits and 12 gauge for appliance circuits.

I had to install a 20 amp circuit last summer with #6/3 wire. That for a deep well pump that is 160 feet from the house and 200 feet down in the ground. I.e. a 360 foot run.

[zero]

I don't believe all of Harbor Freight's stuff is sub-par. Just with these two particular extension cords I bought.

I've gotten some real bad stuff from them along with the good. So far they've been very good about making good on the bad stuff and/or mistakes. I recently ordered an electric grinder and they sent me an electric sander by accident. After I called them - they just gave me the sander for free instead of having to send it back.

[zero]

Ahhh... the GFCI. I have a love/hate relationship with those things. In the new house I had built in 2012, those things are all over the place it seems. I'm still mapping which GFCI goes to what. Wanted outlets in Garage... GFCI. Outlets on the porch... GFCI. Outlets on the eves for Christmas lights... GFCI. Outlet in the furnace room... GFCI. Storage room... GFCI. Kitchen, yes, I knew I'd be getting GFCI there. Six bathrooms... all connected to GFCI's... but I have no idea which when goes where yet.

Pretty soon every outlet will be required to be a GFCI. lol

I doubt code will ever require GFCIs in rooms where a person cannot touch a ground. Arc-fault circuit interrupters, yes. 2011 NEC calls for it. Here in New York - we're still using 2008/2009 NEC. If someone wants to legally wire-as-they-please - they need to go to states like Arizona, Illinois or Mississippi.

I just got done wiring a solar-electric residence that has no grid hook-up or AC power. All 12 volts DC. Regardless - I was required to wire it for AC and have it inspected - "just in case" it later gets hooked to the grid. I was also required to install hard-wired AC powered smoke detectors even thought here IS no AC power. Also was required to install several GFCIs and prove that they worked IF hooked to AC power. That turned into a fiasco. I hooked to a modified-wave inverter and discovered neither the smoke detectors or the GFCIs would work. Just to pass inspection - I had to hook up a full-wave inverter.

[Maineah]

Two separate 20 amps kitchens circuits One 20 amp laundry one 20 amp bath the rest can be 15 and generally are copper is expensive.

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.

(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

[zero]

Two separate 20 amps kitchens circuits One 20 amp laundry one 20 amp bath the rest can be 15 and generally are copper is expensive.

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.

(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and

20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in

dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,

parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation

rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall

be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,

combination-type, installed to provide protection of the

branch circuit.

In the "real world" I have not seen a new circuit installed in any residence with multiple duplexes that were not hooked to a 20 amp circuit. I've been wiring houses since the late 70s and worked for several residential electrical contractors in New York, Michigan, Massachusetts, and Vermont. Personally I think a person would be out-of-their-damn-mind to install 14 gauge wire and a 15 amp circuit hooked to any string of duplex outlets where anything other then a light (or similar small load) gets plugged in. Even upstairs in a remote bedroom a person might want to plug in a 1500 watt space heater, hair dryer, window air conditioner, etc. But yes - I've seen many older houses with long runs of outlets hooked to 14 gauge wire and 15, 20, and even a few 30 amp breakers. All fire hazards. Several states in the US have no electrical code enforcement at all while others are using only portions of code from 2008. To the converse - some cities have their own special code and many do not allow 14 gauge wire to be used anywhere. Not sure what the point of all this is? I mentioned some accurate facts about voltage loss and amp-draw. Those facts do not change - regardless of what some bozo has put into a house for wiring - or what another bozo working at the NEC place says we need to do. And yes - the people at the NEC have made some big mistakes in the past. Especially with aluminum wiring in the 70s. The principals of wire length, type, temp, etc. versus max load apply equally to RVs as they do to households.