Generator & 120V Plug-In Questions

[fred heath]

I worked as a residential electrician back in the late 70s in New Jersey and Vermont. Even then - 20 amps was required for new circuits having duplex outlets. Exceptions if just for lighting. Note the circuit was 20 amps along with wire with ample ampacity - i.e. 12 gauge copper. The duplex outlet themselves are still usually 15 amp rating at the plug and 20 amps pass-through. That is not something new. Hospitals and commercial locations usually require 20 amp duplexes that accept 15 amp and 20 amp male plugs.

In regard to old houses meeting current code for the region? Can't say I ever worked on one that conformed either. They are not required to. I still have some knob-and-tube wiring here in my barn and it is still 100% legal because it is grandfathered in. I think it's safe to say that any house that's been legally wired in the USA in the past 30-40 years has 20 amp circuits for duplexs.

Show me where it specifies 20A circuits for o/s outlets in the code.

Not the newest addition.

I went through all my old code books because you PMO. No mention of minimum 20A I could find. Either 15 or 20 is fine.

I'm not looking for 18 paragraphs of fluff. I really don't care how many jobs you've had in your lifetime. Give me the specific code and subsection that supports your 20 amp only allowed.

Maybe they do things different where you live.

Even the new code only "recommends" 15A for lighting, 20A for plugs.

Remember, anything other than NEC code and subsection is only "fluff".

[zero]

Show me where it specifies 20A circuits for o/s outlets in the code.

I'm not looking for 18 paragraphs of fluff. I really don't care how many jobs you've had in your lifetime. Give me the specific code and subsection that supports your 20 amp only allowed.

Maybe they do things different where you live.

Even the new code only "recommends" 15A for lighting, 20A for plugs.

If you have something against "fluff" - you shouldn't be discussing code at all. It is FULL of fluff, qualifiers and statements open to interpretation. Thus why one inspector might fail a job and another pass it. They are given a lot of lee-way. Any electrician worth a damn is supposed to make a "best guess" as what is going to be used where - and wire accordingly with safe ampacity and a voltage drop of 3% or less. It is NOT always about the lowest cost as you claim.

You made a sweeping statement about how most modern residential circuits with multiple duplexes are 15 amps. I disagreed and still do. Have I seen "most" as in over 50% of all the houses in the USA wired since 1980? No. Have you? I doubt it. I based my statement as having worked as an electrician in NJ, NY, VT, Mass, and MI. Also what I've seen pass and fail by inspectors. Also by what is alluded to in our current NY code which is based on portions of 2008 and 2009 NEC. I cannot cite all the data that refers to circuits with duplexes without adding "fluff" as you put it.

Again - you are the one that said that "most" circuits with duplexes are 15 amp. Not me. It also seems to me that you don't understand the meaning of "length of wire run." I mentioned 35 feet in a typical RV and you disagreed. I'll say again - an RV with 10 feet of wire in the walls and an attached 25 foot cord has 35 feet of wire just for the RV. Plug it into a residential outlet that has 75 feet of wire running back to the main or branch panel - and you've got 110 feet. Add a 25 foot extension cord and you've got 135 feet total run. Very important to know when trying to diagnose problems - or anticipate how to wire something.

This is an RV forum, correct? Some discussion was taking place about air-conditioners and wiring, correct? The principals of wire run, wire diameter, alloy, temp, etc. versus max amp draw all apply here, correct? Or do you disagree with any of these things I just listed?

[fred heath]

If you have something against "fluff" - you shouldn't be discussing code at all. It is FULL of fluff, qualifiers and statements open to interpretation. Thus why one inspector might fail a job and another pass it. They are given a lot of lee-way. Any electrician worth a damn is supposed to make a "best guess" as what is going to be used where - and wire accordingly with safe ampacity and a voltage drop of 3% or less. It is NOT always about the lowest cost as you claim.

You made a sweeping statement about how most modern residential circuits with multiple duplexes are 15 amps. I disagreed and still do. Have I seen "most" as in over 50% of all the houses in the USA wired since 1980? No. Have you? I doubt it. I based my statement as having worked as an electrician in NJ, NY, VT, Mass, and MI. Also what I've seen pass and fail by inspectors. Also by what is alluded to in our current NY code which is based on portions of 2008 and 2009 NEC. I cannot cite all the data that refers to circuits with duplexes without adding "fluff" as you put it.

Again - you are the one that said that "most" circuits with duplexes are 15 amp. Not me. It also seems to me that you don't understand the meaning of "length of wire run." I mentioned 35 feet in a typical RV and you disagreed. I'll say again - an RV with 10 feet of wire in the walls and an attached 25 foot cord has 35 feet of wire just for the RV. Plug it into a residential outlet that has 75 feet of wire running back to the main or branch panel - and you've got 110 feet. Add a 25 foot extension cord and you've got 135 feet total run. Very important to know when trying to diagnose problems - or anticipate how to wire something.

This is an RV forum, correct? Some discussion was taking place about air-conditioners and wiring, correct? The principals of wire run, wire diameter, alloy, temp, etc. versus max amp draw all apply here, correct? Or do you disagree with any of these things I just listed?

Still waiting for code and subsection.

Hint: start with section 210.52 and go from there.

I already qualified my 30' comment earlier in the thread. Your beating a dead horse here.

If I ever give bad advice (and it can be proved in black and white) I'm more than happy to step up to the plate and admit I'm wrong.

You seem to have a problem doing this. Or you "muddy" the waters by going off on tangents.

This thread is getting ridiculous.

I'm done here.........

[grandview bill]

calling theNEC full of fluff shows an incomplete understanding of the NEC ,the language is terse ,,legally bindig.Also the statement that 15 amp circuits are for lighting only is also wrong ,Most of the wiring in a modern home is #14 .Fred has it right ,youre wrong again

[zero]

calling theNEC full of fluff shows an incomplete understanding of the NEC ,the language is terse ,,legally bindig.Also the statement that 15 amp circuits are for lighting only is also wrong ,Most of the wiring in a modern home is #14 .Fred has it right ,youre wrong again

Sounds to me like you are attempting to be insulting. I wonder why?

First of all I never ever stated that "15 amps is for lighting only." So on that count you are clearly wrong and that is easy to prove since it's all here in writing.

Second - I wasn't the first person to use the emotional term of "fluff." I was just responding to it. The NEC is full of variables and leaves much open to the local inspector. I've probably wired over a 100 houses that had to pass in inspection in the NE and am well acquainted on how the inspection process goes along with the individual interpretation of code for each job. Fred Heath first used the word "fluff" here and he did not define it. So I made a "best guess" as to the connotation he intended.

Third - NEC is not what I'd call "terse" and is certainly NOT legally binding. NEC writes suggestions and recommendations for good wiring practices. Nothing legally binding about it. If a state or a local government decides to use parts of it - that government codifies it and THEN whatever they adopt - is legally binding. Again you are incorrect and again -that is easily verfified.

Fourth - you make the wide-sweeping statement that "most wiring in a modern home is 14 gauge." That is based on just what? Your best guess from what you've personally seen or have you actually been inside and seen all the wiring of over 50% of all modern households in the USA? That is a pretty silly statement/claim.

Back in the days when modern houses getting their first electric hook-up - a 30 or 60 amp main service with a lot of 14 gauge wire was not uncommon. But that's in the 1940s. for many areas. A typical household today meeting the minimum one-family residential standards by 2003 NEC code or newer - will have many 20 amp circuits and mostly 12 gauge wiring other then the light-circuits or some dedicated outlets for a single appliance. Exceptions include rooms where outlets are never intended for use with high-draw appliances.

Talking about the NEC . .some members have been pushing for years to even eliminate 14 gauge wire in light circuits due to the potential voltage drops and lights not being as bright as they should be. It has never happened yet and now maybe with the low-draw CFLs and LEDs, it never will. For now - newer code calles for 3 watts per square foot in a new house for light-power. A 3200 square-foot house is following modern code is required to have 6 separate 15 amp light circuits but 7 is what they "recommend." They "prefer" but do not "require" one circuit for every 500 square feet of living space. How terse.

I'd like to hear what you base your claim on about "most" modern wiring using 14 gauge. This should be interesting. I will fully admit that I have NOT walked through and inspected over half the modern households in the USA like you seem to be claiming. I did work as as a union (IBEW) electrician and as an independent. I also still have to keep up with code requirements in areas that I still work in (NY and MI).

Here's what the latest NEC says about new house wiring. I'll pick a 2800 square foot home.

Note this is what the NEC "suggests." They have NO legal authority to make anyone do anything.

120 volts . .

General purpose circuits - one for every 500 square feet of living space. 6 in this case.

Spare general-purpose circuits - 2

Small appliance -2

Special laundry - 1

Bathroom - 1

Oil or gas burner - 1

Blower on furnace - 1

Bathroom heater (if used) - 1

Room heater (if used) - 1

Air conditioner (if used) - 1

Workshop (if used) - 1

240 volt circuits . .

Range - 1

Water heater - 1

Clothes dryer - 1

Water pump - 1

Sump pump - 1

[Maineah]

We just finished a large house it was the masters license that would be hung out to dry and the local inspector has been by once a week, the room outlets are 15 amp I just looked at a 8,000 BTU window A/C yesterday at HD 6.2 amps. A/C units require a dedicated circuit beyond 15 amps and require a non duplex outlet has nothing to do with a room outlet.It's all about the money a roll of 14 is over $50 less than a roll of of #12 most every thing now requires ark faults so the bidding on wiring is very tight when you start throwing in $35 breakers. The NEC is cut and dry, over kill maybe but its the law no fluff to it and if you want to keep your license it better be code. Me I don't care I'm retired but when I help I do it exactly the way the master wants it.

[zero]

We just finished a large house it was the masters license that would be hung out to dry and the local inspector has been by once a week, the room outlets are 15 amp I just looked at a 8,000 BTU window A/C yesterday at HD 6.2 amps. A/C units require a dedicated circuit beyond 15 amps and require a non duplex outlet has nothing to do with a room outlet.It's all about the money a roll of 14 is over $50 less than a roll of of #12 most every thing now requires ark faults so the bidding on wiring is very tight when you start throwing in $35 breakers. The NEC is cut and dry, over kill maybe but its the law no fluff to it and if you want to keep your license it better be code. Me I don't care I'm retired but when I help I do it exactly the way the master wants it.

NEC is certainly NOT law. What are you people smoking? It only becomes law when a government adopts it and makes it their own law. Here in NY the state has adopted parts of 2008 and 2009 code and New City has it's own special version. Note that there are still a few states in the USA that do not enforce any part of the NEC.

On the subject of 15 amp room outlets. That in itself has nothing to to with being hooked to a 15 amp or 20 amp circuit. Just means the outlets themselves have 15 amp NEMA configurations. Those are 20 amp pass-through and often used with 20 amp circuits with 12 gauge wiring..

The enforcement of the NEC is also not "cut and dry." Local inspectors are given lee-way to custom fit aspects of the code to individual jobs. Same goes for building inspectors.

[zero]

To MaineAH, Grandview Bill and anyone else who feels the need to argue with made-up facts. Here's info on the NEC and it NOT being law -even from the NEC itself. Note the repeated mention of "not legally binding."

From the NEC:

The NEC is not itself a U.S.law, NEC use is commonly mandated by state or local law as well as in many jurisdictions outside of the United States. The ‘authority having jurisdiction” inspects for compliance.

From Mike Holt’s electrical inspection forum:

The NEC is adopted by states and/or localities in the US. Some adopt it outright as written. Some amend it, their local experts know more about electrical safety than the NFPA committees. Some water it down, typically through lobbying by home builders associations who believe they are better at selling granite in the kitchen than safety throughout the house. Some places add restrictions: Chicago -- no NM.
Once adopted it generally has the force of law.
The NEC is used by most if not all US Government departments for their own construction.

The NEC is adopted by several other countries: Mexico, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Columbia, ...

As of Oct 2012 it is not adopted the following states (by the whole state): AL, AZ, HI, IL, KS, MD, MS, MO, NV

From Wikipedia . .

The National Electrical Code (NEC), or NFPA 70, is a regionally adoptable standard for the safe installation of electrical wiring and equipment in the United States. The NEC, while having no legally binding regulation as written, can be and often is adopted by states, municipalities and cities in an effort to standardize their enforcement of safe electrical practices within their respective jurisdiction. In some cases, the NEC is amended, altered and may even be rejected in lieu of regional regulations as voted on by the governing bodies of any given locale.

[zero]

It's all about the money a roll of 14 is over $50 less than a roll of of #12 most every thing now requires ark faults

Arc faults only required in areas that have made 2008 NEC or newer legally binding. Can't speak for how you shop but I'm wiring a house right now. No "$50 difference" here in wire prices. Not at my wholesale supplier and not even at the local Home Depot.

250 feet of 12/2 NM is $65 (26 cents per foot).

250 feet of 14/2 is $43 (17 cents per foot).

20 amp breaker $3.50

15 amp breaker $3.50

20 amp arc-fault breaker $38

15 amp arc-fault breaker $38

20 amp tamper-resistant arc-fault duplex $24

15 amp tamper-resistant arc-fault duplex - $24

If Iwas going to wire a 2^nd floor bedroom with the furthest outlet 85feet from the main panel.

15 amp with 15 amp load and 14 gauge would have a voltage drop of 5.3 % and 120 volts becomes 113 volts. Wire and breaker cost = $52.45

20 amp circuit with 15 amp load and 12 gauge wire have a voltage drop of 3.3% and 120 volts becomes 116 volts. Wire and breaker cost = $60.10

So for an $8 difference you'd choose the circuit with the most voltage drop??

[Alvin]

I've learned over the years for my own wiring in my own home to go big on wire, liberal on breakers, and over-achieve. Self love.

Use of small gauge wire is anticipated worst case for the next owner who may test my assumptions. Same for my military PCB designs. If you want to shoot your power supply or Ethernet router out of a bazooka, they hire me to design it. I see how the codes are suggestions for state and local municipalities to enforce, but with my designs I hold to mil-std and commercial enforced standards....no room for skimp.

My suggestion is to spare no effort for safety. Have enjoyed the comments, but come down on the side of safety. Rarely do we need to play McGiver but good to know how. In practice, not so safe. We protect the non-technically inclined first.

[Maineah]

NEC is not binding it is the code that all 50 states base their codes on. One who wires a house buys 1000' rolls there is a $80+ difference at Lowes that is significant when you are a contractor there is another factor too it is easier to work (time is money) with. The $50 difference was the first ad I came to I have better things to do other than surf the web. I'm not going to debate the 15 vers 20 amp homes do not need 20 service in every room nor do they have 85' runs. and if you a pricing a job and so is Frank's electric down the street your going to be out bid.

[zero]

I've learned over the years for my own wiring in my own home to go big on wire, liberal on breakers, and over-achieve. Self love.

Use of small gauge wire is anticipated worst case for the next owner who may test my assumptions. Same for my military PCB designs. If you want to shoot your power supply or Ethernet router out of a bazooka, they hire me to design it. I see how the codes are suggestions for state and local municipalities to enforce, but with my designs I hold to mil-std and commercial enforced standards....no room for skimp.

My suggestion is to spare no effort for safety. Have enjoyed the comments, but come down on the side of safety. Rarely do we need to play McGiver but good to know how. In practice, not so safe. We protect the non-technically inclined first.

I agree with you 100%. Code is NOT law but when required mostly has a focus on safety. Not on voltage losses. Their suggestions on wire and circuit sizes are so a house will trip a breaker instead of a wire catching fire. Wiring for low voltage drop is up to whoever is doing the job. Most electricians I know will not wire anything that might result in more then 5% and many shoot for no more then 3%. Often the differences in costs are minimal.

[zero]

NEC is not binding it is the code that all 50 states base their codes on. One who wires a house buys 1000' rolls there is a $80+ difference at Lowes that is significant when you are a contractor there is another factor too it is easier to work (time is money) with. The $50 difference was the first ad I came to I have better things to do other than surf the web. I'm not going to debate the 15 vers 20 amp homes do not need 20 service in every room nor do they have 85' runs. and if you a pricing a job and so is Frank's electric down the street your going to be out bid.

Hey .. to each his own. 20 years ago we got the best deals on 500 foot spools. Then smaller 250 foot rolls were cheaper per foot at times and certainly handier. A 1000 foot spool is inconvenient to use in many places. Who is this "one who wires" of your's?

And you are wrong again about code. It is not "law" in all 50 US states. I'm sure some version or portion of it will be soon, but that has not happened yet.

In regard to houses NOT having 85 foot runs? Kind of hard to avoid in a large home unless you opt for multiple branch panels instead. No magic here. If a house is 60 feet long with a basement and two stories - and entrance panel is in a basement corner? You've got a distance of approx. 75-85 feet to the furthest outlets.

[zero]

NEC is not binding it is the code that all 50 states base their codes on.

According to the NEC as of April 22 2014 . .

2008 code – 8 states

2011 code – 31 states

2014 code – 2 states

That leaves 9 states that have not adopted NEC

[Alvin]

I agree with you 100%. Code is NOT law but when required mostly has a focus on safety. Not on voltage losses. Their suggestions on wire and circuit sizes are so a house will trip a breaker instead of a wire catching fire. Wiring for low voltage drop is up to whoever is doing the job. Most electricians I know will not wire anything that might result in more then 5% and many shoot for no more then 3%. Often the differences in costs are minimal.

The rule of thumb I often see is to assume the gauge of wire required for loads of 80% power at the plug. We can all apply the line loss tables to figure this out for each case. That would be 1440-watt load max for AWG 14 with corresponding 15-Amp breaker and 1920 Watts load max for 20-amp service using 12AWG. I also like to see lots of 30amp sources in a home and 50-Amp for RV and garage service. I know copper is pricey but it's a great insurance policy. Other rules of thumb may be more useful case by case.

I can't wire without thoughts of voltage drop. In my experience I also consider the reactive components if required since today's wiring is going more and more into whole home automation technologies like Z-wave, x10 (dying) and my choice, Insteon. Nice clean power is the goal.

[zero]

I can't wire without thoughts of voltage drop.

This discussion began, in part with a question about air conditioners and extension cords. I.e. "I've been told that I can't/shouldn't use the AC when plugged into residential power via standard power extension cord, that it would blow a circuit. "

My point as it relates to home wiring is - not all outlets are the same just because they look the same. Just because one person hooks a 25 foot extension cord to their RV and their AC works -it does not mean that will work for everyone else.

If someone wants to calculate what they need for an AC unit - they need to figure the total length of wire run from source to the appliance. One house might have an outside outlet that is 75 feet from the main panel with 14 gauge wire while another might have an outlet that is only 20 feet from the main panel and wired with 12 gauge wire. Both outlets look the same but there can be a HUGE difference.

Not sure how all the other stuff got thrown in the mix - along with the many incorrect claims about National Electric Code.

[Alvin]

This discussion began, in part with a question about air conditioners and extension cords. I.e. "I've been told that I can't/shouldn't use the AC when plugged into residential power via standard power extension cord, that it would blow a circuit. "

My point as it relates to home wiring is - not all outlets are the same just because they look the same. Just because one person hooks a 25 foot extension cord to their RV and their AC works -it does not mean that will work for everyone else.

If someone wants to calculate what they need for an AC unit - they need to figure the total length of wire run from source to the appliance. One house might have an outside outlet that is 75 feet from the main panel with 14 gauge wire while another might have an outlet that is only 20 feet from the main panel and wired with 12 gauge wire. Both outlets look the same but there can be a HUGE difference.

Not sure how all the other stuff got thrown in the mix - along with the many incorrect claims about National Electric Code.

Yes, agree. To answer this question about a given application it varies case by case and really, night by night if traveling. Vehicle power almost demands that each RV owner becomes knowledgeable abound conductor gauge and losses. Perhaps the best way to answer this question is to link to copper loss tables:

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

and "ampacity"...

Http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-gauge_Ampacity

...

[zero]

Yes, conductor sizes, voltage losses and a few other factors. Start-up surge current for appliances with motors. Also heating wattage versus actual wattage with microwave ovens. An air conditioner might be listed as having a 8-12 amp draw but it can need 20-30 amps to get started. A microwave might be sold as a "700 watt" oven yet run on a much higher 1400 watts.

Take my 1988 Minicruiser as one example. Had an AC unit rated at 12 amps running and up to 30 amps start current. In fact, a 7100 BTU air conditioner can draw up to 60 amps if the motor gets stuck (locked rotor rating). Has 10 feet of 12 gauge wire in the walls. Also has an attached 25 foot long power cord made of 10 gauge wire. I'll pick 30 amps of start-current for loss. The 10 feet of 12 gauge has a .8% drop @ 30 amps. The 25 foot cord has a 1.3% drop assuming that cord is not powering anything else in the RV when the AC starts. That's 2.1% loss so far. Now add on a 25 foot extension cord made from 14 gauge copper. That cord has a 3.2 % drop. So now total loss is up to 5.3% which is already the usual acceptable limit. Now - plug it in to an RV high-power outlet and it might work fine. But what happens if same is plugged into a household outlet? If that outlet has 75 feet of 12 gauge wire - it has its own drop of 6.3%. Add that to the other wires running to the RV and there is a total loss of 11.6%. Likely the AC unit will not start and just trip a breaker instead. Note that when voltage drops - amp draw goes up.

On the subject of microwaves - no motor but still a sort of surge-rating. Most microwaves have NO low heat setting that results in less amp draw. When on low heat they trigger on and off drawing the same current as when on high-heat. They control heat by how often they trigger "on" and "off." Thus the reason why a microwave sold as "700 watts" might draw 1400 watts. That are a few exceptions that use PWM (pulse width modulation) and are sold as "inverter microwaves."

[Maineah]

The only thing I can suggest is go back and read post 5. This has turned into what I refer to as SI's "superfluous information" there really is such a thing as too much information. If I plugged into some ones house I do not believe I would have the ---- to ask "how long is the run from the load center to the outlet and what is the voltage drop was the contractor licensed did he have the latest NEC training does the state endorse the NEC what is the wire gauge is this a 20 amp outlet? No I would plug in and hope it works out for me. If it were mine I would have installed a 30 RV outlet with a 7" run of # 10 wire on a 30 amp gfi.

[zero]

The only thing I can suggest is go back and read post 5. This has turned into what I refer to as SI's "superfluous information" there really is such a thing as too much information

There is a big difference between "superfluous" info and "incorrect" info. The former is fine with me. Not so keen on the latter. What I stated about the NEC was and still is - 100% correct.

[Nam]

I thought the thread started asked "generator" related questions...then we went on on NEC and wiring...they are related but can we get back on track to help our new fellow there?

From my experience the built-in Onan Microlite 2.8 is way too noisy for my comfort; when running, the motor home becomes a massage chair. I did install one on my '90 Warrior and did not end up using it that much.

When I got the '90 Itasca, I carry the Honda 2000i with me and it is a lot quieter, provides enough power to run my 9000 BTU AC, 700W microwave (not at the same time) ...the only thing I had to do is to lock it to prevent theft. I use the Honda almost on every trip. Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, I don't need AC that much

Not to mention the Honda is $1k, compared to the Onan ($2.5K). The Yamaha is similar in price and noise level as the Honda.

Plug in House outlet requires #10AWG with dedicate 30A circuit when running AC only.

[zero]

I thought the thread started asked "generator" related questions...then we went on on NEC and wiring..

The incipient post that began this discussion had two parts. Thus the NEC discussion which is directly relevant to one of them. The guy also asked about using a household outlet . .

"Lastly, separate from the generator issue - I've been told that I can't/shouldn't use the AC when plugged into residential power via standard power extension cord, that it would blow a circuit."

In regard to RV generators and strategies . . there have been four basic approaches I know of. The older gensets came with twice the engine needed for the job but ran them at 1/2 speed and 1/2 power (1800 RPM) in an attempt to make them quieter. Often a 5000 watt generator detuned to make 2500 watts. Then came the cheapened 3600 RPM RV gensets. Then there are modern portable gensets used in RVs that come AC based - or DC inverter based. The AC based still must run 3600 RPM all the time (like many Hondas) but have done a great job of making them quiet and smooth. The other - the inverter type - makes DC and converts to AC and can do so at any engine speed. So if you have a small load - it can still make proper AC power at 800 RPM.

In regard to the 120 volt AC outlet in a house to run something like a 7100 BTU air conditioner in an RV as you have now mentioned? A 30 amp circuit is not required in all cases. It all boils down to the total wire run from the power source to the AC unit itself - as has been previously discussed. A 15 amp duplex hooked to a 20 amp household circuit with 10 or 12 gauge wire (copper) can do the job fine depending how long it's wire run is to the main entrance panel. A 20 amp circuit breaker or a 20 amp "slow blow" fuse can handle the 30 amp start surge. But going by the sentiment expressed in your post - you think this has been discussed enough. Correct?

[Maineah]

!800 RPM generators are 4 pole units draw back weight/cost + noise level. 3600 RPM generators are 2 pole draw back noise and longevity+ cost. Same HP per watt . 3600's are generally throw away's 1800 generally can be rebuilt and are far more durable. They both are 60 cycle sine wave.

There is a big difference between "superfluous" info and "incorrect" info. The former is fine with me. Not so keen on the latter. What I stated about the NEC was and still is - 100% correct.

OK if your figures are right that means 18% of the country has not adopted NEC. Not a very impressive figure and sure to change in the near feature like the rest of the states.

[zero]

!800 RPM generators are 4 pole units draw back weight/cost + noise level. 3600 RPM generators are 2 pole draw back noise and longevity+ cost. Same HP per watt . 3600's are generally throw away's 1800 generally can be rebuilt and are far more durable. They both are 60 cycle sine wave.

OK if your figures are right that means 18% of the country has not adopted NEC. Not a very impressive figure and sure to change in the near feature like the rest of the states.

To get a proper Hertz Cycle sine-wave from a conventional AC generator - it must run at a single predetermined single speed. The proper Hertz Cycle produced by an inverter generator can be produced at any speed. Thus the latter can be much more efficient when used for small loads since it can do so at low engine speeds. An other issue is the actual voltage. Many small portable generators rated for 120 VAC only make 150 volts at the peaks and nadirs of the cycles. Conventional grid current and better generators make 170 volts.

In regard to "my figures " about US states that use some version or part of the National Electric Code . . the are not "mine." Those figures come from the NEC Website. It is "their" figures. I have no doubt every state will fall into compliance at some point. My point was - and still is - they are not all in compliance now and the NEC has no legal authority over anyone. Many people on this thread jumped in and said I was wrong. Nope.

[fred heath]

You seem to be obsessed with "being right".

Even when your wrong, you will debate for days defending your position. Most people just give up because the fight is just not worth the effort.

On May 19 you posted a question in the General category. It started as "what the heck is a warning point". You went on further to say you'd been "banned forever" from Yahoo Toyota Group. You couldn't understand why this happened.

I think anyone following this thread can give you the answer.

you're a very intelligent person. If you could just learn to relax a little, I think you'd be much happier.

Nobody is right 100% of the time.

[zero]

You seem to be obsessed with "being right".

Even when your wrong, you will debate for days defending your position. Most people just give up because the fight is just not worth the effort.

On May 19 you posted a question in the General category. It started as "what the heck is a warning point". You went on further to say you'd been "banned forever" from Yahoo Toyota Group. You couldn't understand why this happened.

I think anyone following this thread can give you the answer.

you're a very intelligent person. If you could just learn to relax a little, I think you'd be much happier.

Nobody is right 100% of the time.

I'm not "obsessed" with being "right" as you put it. At least not if I find out I'm wrong. I am determined to defend something I've stated when it IS indeed correct - yet others keep chiming in about how wrong I am. That at least includes you, and the other two posters who made erroneous claims about the NEC, household wiring, etc. Funny – not one of you guys have said anything close to “gee I was wrong.”

In my world – striving to be accurate is not a negative personality trait as you seem to regard it.

Bringing up the Yahoo group thing is a bit childish on your part. What has that got to do with anything I've said here?

Since you feel the need to hash this out on this thread instead of using a private message, I will elucidate. The Yahoo thing went like this.

Mr. Turtle put me on "probation." When I asked "why" he refused to tell me. To this day nobody over there in control including Turtle have ever told me what the problem was. Turtle wanted me to "defend" my desire to be on that forum and I pretty much refused. THEN I was banned.

So Fred - which alleged obsession is worse? Mine when I stand behind something I previously stated that is 100% correct? Or your's when you keep hammering away at something with incorrect info and hope if you repeat it enough - it will be deemed as accurate?

That might work well for some people in politics but it does not work well in technical discussions.

I have no trouble admitting when I’m wrong about something. Not you, and a few others though.

What I won’t do is say I’m wrong just to make someone like you “feel” better.

I mentioned that many RVs have 35 feet of wiring running to the AC and you disputed it. I was correct.

I mentioned using a NM portable cord and you claimed the NEC had issue with it.

I said the NEC has no say in how I make extension cords which is absolutely true.

Grandview Bill stated the NEC is legally binding . NO it is not. State, county , or city code is what is legally binding IF it exists. He also stated that most wiring in a residence is 14 gauge which is also wrong. Yet like you – Grandview Bill wants to make my statement invalid just by saying so? All this can be easily verified by sources other then me.

Maine AH claimed that the NEC is “the law.” Again, NO it is not. You guys saying this stuff, over and over does not change that. He also claimed homes don’t have any 85 foot wire runs. Again - wrong. Many homes have 85 foot wire runs and sometimes longer.

Nam stated that . . “Plug in House outlet requires #10AWG with dedicate 30A circuit when running AC only. “ Again – that is not true. AC only does NOT require a 30 amp circuit when run alone.

You call me "obsessed" yet it seems you cannot drop it until I turn tail and say what is "right " is "wrong?"

If that is what the forum owners want - I'll gladly leave. I do know however there are other people here who like to work with accurate facts like Alvin, et. al.

[zero]

. Same HP per watt . 3600's are generally throw away's 1800 generally can be rebuilt and are far more durable. They both are 60 cycle sine wave.

My point about engine size in older RV gensets is not about horsepower per watt. It's about using an engine size bigger then needed and underworking it. That was to increase longevity and an attempt decrease noise. I.e. take an engine capable of 20 horsepower and only run it at 9 horsepower. Downside is it makes them heavy. The trend now with many is use small engines and run them to the max. RV sets come in 50 Hertz and 60 Hertz. Poles vary a lot. Some Delco units are 6 or 8 pole. I have a Delco 17 KW genset here powered by a small Detroit that makes 60 HZ power at 1200 RPM. A Delco 12 volt alternator on a car is often 8 poles and can make 60 cycle power at 900 RPM.

Back to RV gensets and engine sizes:

4.5 CM21 RV Kohler RV generator 125.3 watts per cubic inch of engine

Onan BGE 83.3 watts per cubic inch of engine

Onan Microlite 2.8 233 watts per cubic inch of engine.

Kohler 2.5 (with crappy Tecumseh engine) 185 watts per cubic inch of engine

Onan RV QG 2800 RV 212 watts per cubic inch of engine

[Maineah]

A good bit of the "over" HP has a lot to do with reserve power the motor start reserve you talk about. People charge their camper batteries with a 135 HP motor home engine.When and engine is governed to 3600 it takes a good bit of HP just to keep it running never mind making electricity.

"Conventional grid current and better generators make 170 volts".

Yes that is correct so do small generators they also make 340 volts peak to peak but the voltage we all live with is RMS or 120 volts it's the math there is no getting around that you can’t make 120 volts with a peak voltage of 150. 4 pole generators make 60 cycles @1800 RPM 3600 RPM two pole generators make 60 cycles @ 3600 RPM. European generators run at 1750 or 3500 RPM they make 50 cycles. That is the why generator governors are adjusted for speed by cycles per second not by voltage the voltage is by design at 60 cycles. Cheap generators have lousy governors their frequency is not real stable but within reason. Good units have frequency driven electronic governors (5kW up Onan's come to mind). Inverter generators are a completely different kettle of fish they are 3 phase AC to DC to AC processor controlled inverters with electronic driven throttles to meet demand.

[Maineah]

Just goes to show in any group of organizations or individuals and especially in forums it is difficult to get everyone to agree.

http://www.electricalcodecoalition.org/state-adoptions.aspx

Thank you, now it's down to 8%

[grandview bill]

Yes there can be too much information,just read here....dont you people have a life?

[Derek up North]

As with any Forum or Group (or anything else on the Interweb), we're all free to read (or not) anything we like. With no obligation to comment.