Clutch troubleshoot

[aptruncata]

I've driven stick vehicles for the last 15 years and am competent at driving them.

I'm noticing that my clutch on the toy is grabbing near the very top before release.

I would say it's grabbing at about the last two- 2 1/2" before the peddle is completely released.

i'm planning on bleeding the slave to see if it make a difference and if not will replace the clutch.

I'm torn between aftermarket and dealer parts can anyone guide me in the right direction?

I plan on driving this unit for a while.

Does anyone have actual experience in dropping the tranny on these and doing the clutch jobs themselves? if so any pointers?

btw. dealer wants $235 for the clutch kit and i've seen them for nearly half the price for generic.

Thanks again.

[5Toyota]

have not done a mh have done 20 R toyota wagen not a miner job of course BE SHURE YOU USE A PLASTIC pilot dummy shaft to hold the disck center while bolting on pressure plate make shure disc is the right direction if the flywheel is not clean smoth ether have turned or replaced and there is the pilot bearing in the crank on eng replace when in there rent puller for that. recomend big fllor jack. read up on it first THE ONLY ADJUSTMENT IS NUT ON THE MASTER CYLINDER CAN LOSEN TURN ROD ON CLEVIS TO ADJUST PEDAL BUT TOO MUCH CAN CAUSE CLUTCH TO START SLIPPING BURNING BOTH CLUTCH AND FLYWHEEL READ UP ON SPECS> THE THE DEALER TOYOTA CLUTCHES USED TO BE ALL REMAN UNITS I DO NOT KNOW ANYMORE IF THEY ARE NOW .toyota or NAPA is good a lot of the companys i dont use and i do NOT BY OVER THE INTERNET I WANT TO SEE IT FIRSTHAND . REPLACE ALL THROW OUT BEARING PILOT ALSO> YOU have to raise it up BE CAREFUL

[zero]

I've driven stick vehicles for the last 15 years and am competent at driving them.

I'm noticing that my clutch on the toy is grabbing near the very top before release.

I would say it's grabbing at about the last two- 2 1/2" before the peddle is completely released.

i'm planning on bleeding the slave to see if it make a difference and if not will replace the clutch.

I'm torn between aftermarket and dealer parts can anyone guide me in the right direction?

I plan on driving this unit for a while.

Does anyone have actual experience in dropping the tranny on these and doing th clutch jobs themselves? if so any pointers?

btw. dealer wants $235 for the clutch kit and i've seen them for nearly half the price for generic.

Thanks again.

I've done many clutch jobs in heavy trucks as well as several Toyotas recently. I was a full-time mechanic for 40 years and now do it part time in my own shop. I buy mostly all my parts on-line. It is much cheaper that way and also - I have more control on the quality. When it comes to cars and trucks over 15-20 years old, the parts are considered either "slow movers" or "obsolete." Subsequently many of the OEM parts are available from aftermarket suppliers at half or 1/4 the original price. Part resellers like NAPA are the types of places I never buy from unless in a big hurry. Most of the time, the local NAPA won't have what I need anyway.

I'll add that the terms "aftermarket" versus "OEM" don't always mean much. Toyota has much of their parts made for them and often an aftermarket part is the exact same part Toyota will sell you. My preference is RockAuto. Great service, huge selection of OEM "old stock" along with discontinued "aftermarket." I've never found an OEM part at any NAPA. Never had an issue with returning a part if I wasn't satisfied. Toyota often used Aisin clutches and brake components, not that I think it matters. AISIN Part # CKT024 clutch kit is $106. That Includes: AISIN clutch cover & disc, release bearing, pilot Bearing, & alignment Tool. I've been using the Sachs kits and as far as I can tell - the parts are exactly the same as the AISIN kit. SACHS Part # KF62801 kit is $80. The $235 kit from the dealer is no better quality and might be 100% the same. Just passed through many hand with each getting a fee.

A clutch job should have a new disk, new presure plate, new pilot bearing and new release bearing. That and the alignment tool come in the kit. If the clutch has not been slipping or chattering - the flywheel surface won't be an issue. OEM clutch disks are soft and are designed to wear before the metal flywheel does (unlike some HD metalic clutch disks).

In regard to hydraulics? The parts are so cheap I put in new when doing a clutch. You can buy a brand new master cylinder with prices from $7 to $15. The cheaper $7 master cylinder (AMERICAN REMANUFACTURERS INC. Part # 72322308) is brand new and Asian. I have one here and looks to be exactly the same quality as the original AISIN. Or you can spend $15 on a American brand like a Bendix # 31236 for $15 (also from Asia) or a Beck Arnley which is usually OEM Asian type for $24 (Part # 0728357). You can buy a brand new slave cylinder that is now considered "obsolete stock" for $5 - CONI-SEAL Part # SC103433. An OEM type AISIN is $15 (Part # CRT00, OEM #s 3147030260, 3147035050).

If you are thinking of doing it yourself . . . you need a good safe way to get the Toyota up in the air so you can work under it. Also, unless you are a really rugged person - a transmission jack is a big help. When I was younger, I removed and installed many full size trannies - even some 4WDs with transfercases attached - all on my back and using arm-power. No more for me. I can't do it. A transmission jack is a Godsend and also lets you take your time. You may be able to rent one locally. I bought a new one a few years ago from Harbor Freight after struggling with a Dodge-Cummins 4WD clutch job. Harbor Freight sells a light-duty trans jack for $140 that is more then enough for a Toyota or any full-size 2WD. Part #3185 rated for 800 lbs.. I opted for the HD 2000 lbs. jack for $300, part #4075. Suprisingly good quality for the price. The Toyota fours-speed trans only weighs 75-80 lbs.

[WME]

What everybody says, plus the top 2 bolts on the bellhousing can be a bugger to loosen.

[aptruncata]

I'm planning on using what i have, two rhino ramps, three jack stands, 2 3-ton floor jacks and 1-ton floor jack.

I just hope i can raise it enough off the ground to get it out of the way. Thanks for your input on oem vs others. I'll try the aisins and see how it goes. I can use a floor jack to lift the tranny back in.

-do you think it's a good time to change the main seals while i'm down there?

-any trade secrets to pull pilot bearing? (besides the puller)

-do you think it's possible to lift only the front and tackle it? i think my jacks max out at about 23" off the ground.

[Maineah]

The trans is not very heavy and your most likely a lot younger then me. If you want to replace the pilot bearing a seal puller works fine they are not in there real tight and it's probably fine any way they are ball bearing. If you have an alignment shaft pack the cavity behind the bearing with grease as much as you can get in and smack the back of the alignment tool with a hammer the grease will force it out. Never known a rear main to leak on a 22RE best to leave it alone. I prefer Toyota clutch assemblies in years past I have had far less issues with them then other replacements types.

[aptruncata]

@Maineah

Which other brands have you tried and what problems did you encounter and how many toyota clutches have you gone through/miles?

[Maineah]

I used to deal with NAPA and the likes over the years (professionally) and Toyota was pretty close to them as far as prices. Toyota stands behind what they sell and they have a reputation to protect so they shay away from inferior parts. I have had issues with clutch covers from aftermarket providers. Mind you it's been a good while since I done them for a living and perhaps the quality has improved, the last Toyota one was in my own 4X4 Tacoma (laying on my back in my own garage by the way). How ever if I needed one right now I would still get it from Toyota I'm a believer in OEM parts if the original one lasted 285K there must be some thing to it. I don't know how many miles is on your MH but talk about harsh conditions trying to get 6,000# rolling!

[zero]

I'm planning on using what i have, two rhino ramps, three jack stands, 2 3-ton floor jacks and 1-ton floor jack.

I just hope i can raise it enough off the ground to get it out of the way. Thanks for your input on oem vs others. I'll try the aisins and see how it goes. I can use a floor jack to lift the tranny back in.

-do you think it's a good time to change the main seals while i'm down there?

-any trade secrets to pull pilot bearing? (besides the puller)

-do you think it's possible to lift only the front and tackle it? i think my jacks max out at about 23" off the ground.

Just raising the front isn't going to give you enough room to work. Got any woods and trees around (and a chainsaw)? Four sawed off sections of a 14-20" hardwood tree make great and tall jack stands.

You can pull the pilot bearing out with a cheap slide hammer with a L-hook stuck in the end - or a bolt with the bolt-head wedged on the inside of the bearing. A cheap slide-hammer like used for pulling small dents out of fender or even a big slide-hammer axle-puller. Even a long piece of threaded rod. Put a nut on one end that just fits inside the bearing bore and catches. Put something heavy on the rod and put a few nuts on the other end and slam away (home made slide hammer). Or - stick a short bolt in the bearing with the head wedged on the inside. Then pull on the outside of the bolt (with a nut on it) with a small pry bar.

If I was doing the job for myself, and the rig hadn't been apart in a long-long time or mayber never? I'd be thinking about things like the transmission output and input seals, driveshaft center-bearing, U-joints, rear transmission mount, etc. I'd replace anything that wasn't perfect. The time to do it is when the transmission is out.

As to the mindset that if an OEM clutch gets over 200K miles on it - it must be the preferred part? I don't share that sentiment. I've seen many OEM clutches go bad at 40,000 miles including Toyota. Usually has nothing to do with parts quality or faulty engineering. It's about how the vehicle is geared, who is driving it, how many hills the car stops and goes facing up, and what sort of miles are on the rig. I just put a new clutch in a 2005 Subaru Impreza with 38,000 miles on it. To the converse, my 1992 Subaru Loyale had a slipping clutch when I got it with 80K miles. I put a new Beck Arnley kit in it at less then 1/3 dealer cost. It made it to 240,000 miles before it got so rusty the rear suspension broke off. Clutch was still fine. Toyota, as well as all other brands seek to find a balance between parts that last and are the econmical to buy. If they always made the correct choice there woudn't be so many recalls. Most parts a Toyota dealer sells are made by a company other then Toyota and there are many other brand names out there with equal and sometimes better quality then OEM. Another problem with OEM besides cost is . . . the components they sell you over the counter for a car/truck that is 30 years old are often not the same parts it came with new. The OEM production line parts used on a new car leaving the factory are not always the same as replacement parts from the dealer. Granted there are certain complex parts where the utmost quality is a concern and I'd be nervous trusting an unknown aftermarket company. Not the case with simple clutches and hydraulic parts being made by the same companies that supply Toyota and many other car makers. I'm finding now adays that sometimes parts in the big brand-name boxes are low quality. I just went though that with some supposed OEM AC Delco parts that were made in China and very poor quality. Same with some GM-Delphi fuel injectors. I've also had it happen from John Deere Co. To the converse, I bought some electrical parts from Ford recently and found out that they are now made by Beru of Germany (much better then the original OEM).

If I was dealing with a clutch setup that was known to be problematic - it would be a different story. Like the GM diesel trucks in the late 80s? The OEM clutches weren't holding up and the problems were fixed with aftermarket. With Toyota? I've never heard of any problem in the clutch department. The 9" clutch is more then adequate for the low power engine and typical gearing used. It is engineered with a non-metallic disk that will wear before the flywheel surface does. The hydraulic self-adjusting setup is designed to make the clutch slip when it's worn - before any metal contact damages the flywheel (as most Japanese and Korean autos are).

[5Toyota]

THANK YOU FOR BETTER INFO ON COMPUTER I HAVE DONE A NUMBER OF CLUTCHS FORGOT ABOUT BECK ARNLY USED THOSE HOME MADE PILOT PULLERS TOO THEY WORK YOU PUT IN BETTER WORDS THEN I WAS ABLE THO I HAVE DONE A LOT OF IT TOO

[fred heath]

Not sure which engine you have, but on my 20R be sure you replace the rear crank oil seal when you do your clutch. If it goes bad later, you'll have to remove clutch,flywheel the whole setup just to replace it.

I also switched to DOT 5 silicone brake fluid for the slave cylinder. It's pricy, but doesn't absorb moisture. You must flush all old fluid from cylinders and lines first. The two fluids do not mix.

[aptruncata]

I have a 22R 4sp.

i'm replacing:

clutch disk, pilot bearing, throwout bearing, cover and slave cylinder.

Thanks for all the great insight, will be back to report.

[aptruncata]

Back and alive! took about 5 hours with a help of a buddy. things realized:

the tranny is smaller and lighter than i thought, about 80lbs as linda said it would weigh.

using grease to pull out the pilot bearing works very well.

clutch was nearly gone with barely any meat on it.

fly wheel had some hotspots on it but nothing significant.

torquing the flywheel nuts to spec while preventing it from spinning was tricky.

the spline met up on the third try but if i was to do it alone, i would definately need a tranny jack or straps.

the vehicle is atleast 3x more heavier in the back to lift.

My first clutch change and am happy i did it without paying the dealer.

Net cost including breakfast, lunch and a case of beer: shy of $200.

thanks guys

[waiter]

Congrats on the clutch change, I think 99% of the problem when repairing mechanical problems, is getting the courage to attempt the repair yourself. Most can be done with basic tools.

Post some photos if you have them.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[zero]

Back and alive! took about 5 hours with a help of a buddy. things realized:

the tranny is smaller and lighter than i thought, about 80lbs

It's funny how an 80 lb. trans and bellhousing can feel like 200 lbs. after you hold it up there awhile and it doesn't want to slide in.

[aptruncata]

I could have sworn i thought my neck was going to separate from my shoulders under there.

[Skydancer2992]

When you've worked on some of the most intimate parts of a truck, you feel like you know her a lot better.

She also seems to appreciate the attention.

I know there are prettier campers than mine.

However, I'm happy with the one that I know so well vice a stranger.

[5Toyota]

AND NOW YOU HAVE BENCH PRESSED A TRANNE HA HA I been and done that to welcome . IF WE PAY THE DEALERS ALL THE TIME WE NEVER LEARN anything ourselves.WAITER IS SPOT ON COURGE IS A LOT OF HAD DO A 20R HEAD GASKET NO THREE hundred to pay did myself with advice from good people.

[waiter]

When I was younger, I actually enjoyed this kind of stuff. (not so much now). i.e. last month, I pulled the engine/tranny out of my 97 Camry to replace a rear main seal. I hate working on cars, but I hate dropping $1000 to pay someone to do a job that I can do.

Nice thing about the internet (and this forum) odds are, someone did it before, AND, they took the time to carefully document it with photos.

A nice thing about the toyhouse, for most of us, its not like we drive it every day t. so usually there is plenty of time to research the problem, and plenty of time to do the repair.

John Mc

88 DOlphin 4 Auto

[MontanaChinook]

For those looking into this...I'll start off by admitting I don't have personal experience with this, but it comes from Marlin (of Marlin Crawler), and that guy knows Toyotas:

Unless you're an accomplished mechanic, not the usual sort like me who just can read instructions and replace most anything, I would leave the rear main seal in your engine alone if you do a clutch job. According to him it is very finicky, and you need to put the new one in just right or it will start leaking shortly. He says that in his experience, this seal very, very rarely leaks during the normal lifetime of a Toyota engine and tranny. And when you have your engine rebuilt, obviously the rear main should be part of that.

Anyways, in his opinion a rear main leak is such a rare thing in the normal life span of a Toyota truck, and it's such an easy job to botch, that it should NOT be considered a good thing to change while you're in there doing the clutch. Leave it alone.

[zero]

According to him it is very finicky, and you need to put the new one in just right or it will start leaking shortly.

I agree that one-piece rear-main seals like Toyota uses (and most everybody else now) leak very rarely. When they DO leak it's usually due to other issues e.g. a loose main bearing, bad crankcase ventilation, etc.

That being said, seals also go bad just by age and these Toyota RVs are ALL old. I've replaced several rear-main seals in Toyotas. All as routine maintenance and not due to a leak. Never had any problem with any of them and I don't know what the heck the guy at Marin is talking about. Yes - it's a standard one-piece seal with a spring-loaded lip so the same precautions as apply to all one piece seals also apply to the Toyota. But- if anything, the Toyota rear-main seal is a lot easier to change the some other makes. Toyoyta has a removable seal housing which allows pressing in the seal with no worry of damaging the sealing-lip. Driving in the seal is one step, and then getting that lip over the crank is a 2nd and separate step. On some other make engines - that is not the case. On some - the seal must be pressed in with the crankshaft "in the way." For these, a special seal-lip installation tool is needed to prevent inverting (and ruining) the seal lip. Again, not an issue on a Toyota.

I'm not saying anyone with no-to-little mechancal experience can do it. Same goes for changing spark-plugs. If a person has enough skill to install a clutch, he/she certainly has the ability to do just as well with the rear-main seal. Main issue is - you can't force the seal over the crank since the spring-loaded lip is going the "wrong way" and can be flipped over. Just takes a little care. A small pick or thin feel gauge put in and run around in circle while gently pushing the seal towards the engine is all it takes.