whyverne14 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Or at least a second opinion. He said the wrong thing today. "Maybe you should just get rid of it". What? My baby? He said it's leaking oil because it needs a new timing cover. He's going to have to pull the head again. "It's going to be expensive". We refurbed the head and new head gasket last yesr. Timing cover 50 bucks and what, maybe $500 labor? Not even 80K on the 22re yet. So I think I'm going to try another mechanic who is a lot further away. Sometimes I think whether a mechanic wants to do the job is just as important as their skill. If it seems like they really don't want to do the job, move on. So anyway, should we do the timing chain while we're in there? Or nah, if it ain't broke... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) I have a difficult time with mechanics. I have found a couple that are pretty good at mechanical work, seem to be competent and not over priced. But they are not diagnosticians I don't want to let someone throw parts at it until they accidentally find the issue so try to track down as much as I can myself. If you are getting a negative vibe from your mechanic I'm voting to try someone else. Don't know about the chain, I have a belt! Jim Edited June 30, 2016 by jjrbus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 38 minutes ago, whyverne14 said: He said it's leaking oil because it needs a new timing cover. He's going to have to pull the head again. What can possibly be wrong with the timing cover to cause a leak? Oil pump housing I can understand. Also what does removing the head have to do with changing the timing cover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 You can replace the timing chain without removing the head, so the timing cover should be a simple job. Where is the leak, clean the engine and check it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Did you check the oil pump seal?. It's directly behind the crank pulley. A common fail item on 20R & 22R engines. It's a $15.00 part and should take about 2 hours to replace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I think you are right you need a new mechanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 13 hours ago, whyverne14 said: Or at least a second opinion. He said the wrong thing today. "Maybe you should just get rid of it". What? My baby? He said it's leaking oil because it needs a new timing cover. He's going to have to pull the head again. "It's going to be expensive". We refurbed the head and new head gasket last yesr. Timing cover 50 bucks and what, maybe $500 labor? Not even 80K on the 22re yet. So I think I'm going to try another mechanic who is a lot further away. Sometimes I think whether a mechanic wants to do the job is just as important as their skill. If it seems like they really don't want to do the job, move on. So anyway, should we do the timing chain while we're in there? Or nah, if it ain't broke... If it's high mileage and the oil leak is not the crank seal then do the chain there is no need to remove the timing cover or the head for that matter to replace the seal or the gasket.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whyverne14 Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 Thanks everybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaunt Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 On 6/29/2016 at 6:45 PM, whyverne14 said: Or at least a second opinion. He said the wrong thing today. "Maybe you should just get rid of it". What? My baby? He said it's leaking oil because it needs a new timing cover. He's going to have to pull the head again. "It's going to be expensive". We refurbed the head and new head gasket last yesr. Timing cover 50 bucks and what, maybe $500 labor? Not even 80K on the 22re yet. So I think I'm going to try another mechanic who is a lot further away. Sometimes I think whether a mechanic wants to do the job is just as important as their skill. If it seems like they really don't want to do the job, move on. So anyway, should we do the timing chain while we're in there? Or nah, if it ain't broke... It would be pretty crazy to do all that work of replacing the cover and not doing the chains & upgrade to metal guides (if you haven't already) Also replacing the timing cover without pulling the head can be tricky... I've done it but if you mess up your headgasket you're fucked. Doesn't hurt to get a second opinion either... try to find a toyota specific shop. Most places should charge an hour labor to clean the engine, add dye and monitor for the leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 7 hours ago, Jaunt said: It would be pretty crazy to do all that work of replacing the cover and not doing the chains & upgrade to metal guides (if you haven't already) Also replacing the timing cover without pulling the head can be tricky... I've done it but if you mess up your headgasket you're fucked. Doesn't hurt to get a second opinion either... try to find a toyota specific shop. Most places should charge an hour labor to clean the engine, add dye and monitor for the leak. If you are concerned about the head gasket drop the pan. Most MH don't see 5K a year a 22RE's chain and guides are good for 100 to 150K If it has 90K on it then yeah. $10 says it's nothing more than the crank seal and if that's case it's much easier to pull the oil pump any way so get the kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Rarely does the cover go bad. It has a perimeter o ring which does a pretty good seal. One point of reference, there is a bolt on the front of the head under the cam sprocket that's threaded onto the cover. (usually hidden by oil, as its in a recessed area). So technically you would not have to remove the head, but as Jaunt said, it could be difficult to do if not careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Yes the bolt is in the front of the head but it's under distributor drive the distributor has to come out to access it.The timing case has a paper gasket the oil pump has an "O" ring seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 3 hours ago, Maineah said: Yes the bolt is in the front of the head but it's under distributor drive the distributor has to come out to access it.The timing case has a paper gasket the oil pump has an "O" ring seal. The front bolt does contribute to holding the head in place. It must be removed to take off the timing cover without removing the head. Thus unless your very careful, the integrity of the head gasket could be compromised. Your right about gasket, was thinking about oil pump for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 I don't get it. The head was just off last year so the head-gasket already new. You've have to be crazy to pull the head again just to remove the timing cover. It is NOT that "tricky" to do and that little bolt on top is no big deal. I still wonder why the timing cover needs to be replaced anyway, but a new one is certainly cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Bear with me here since I am going by memory and it's been over a year since I had my last 20R or 22RE apart. The little bolt in the front the head that screws into the timing cover has nothing to do with sealing any combustion chamber areas so it has no effect on head-gasket integrity when it comes to areas under compression. In fact I would (and will) argue that the bolt is not to give the head more clamping force. It is there to draw the timing cover tight to the head for simple crankcase sealing purposes. I have done several (cover remove and installs) without removing the head. Usually just a little red RTV (room temp vulcanizing) compound at the sealing area and draw it all up tight and all is fine. Many brand-new engines at the factory are assembled that way except OEM, the grey RTV is often used (I do not like the grey). The grey breaks apart easier and makes disassembly easier and I assume that's why it is used OEM. I prefer the red which is stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 x2 What he said about the "bolt" and what it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whyverne14 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 1 hour ago, jdemaris said: Bear with me here since I am going by memory and it's been over a year since I had my last 20R or 22RE apart. The little bolt in the front the head that screws into the timing cover has nothing to do with sealing any combustion chamber areas so it has no effect on head-gasket integrity when it comes to areas under compression. In fact I would (and will) argue that the bolt is not to give the head more clamping force. It is there to draw the timing cover tight to the head for simple crankcase sealing purposes. I have done several (cover remove and installs) without removing the head. Usually just a little red RTV (room temp vulcanizing) compound at the sealing area and draw it all up tight and all is fine. Many brand-new engines at the factory are assembled that way except OEM, the grey RTV is often used (I do not like the grey). The grey breaks apart easier and makes disassembly easier and I assume that's why it is used OEM. I prefer the red which is stronger. Thanks again. The original problem is that the last owner said that he rebuilt the engine. I've had that 22re taken apart twice already and both mechanics said this guy was a total hack. Goopy sealants everywhere. The last mech said that there appeared to be some grinding done on the timing cover. He gooped it and hoped it would hold. It didn't. It held for a couple thousand. It seems to only seep out when it's running. A little over a quart on my last 200 mile trip. Before that about a quart every 1500. I was thinking about just letting it go til I get my next three fairly short trips in. The trouble is I just had to replace a two year old alternator. I'm worried that there is enough drops of oil flying around to muck up the alternator. I do know the guy from a Toy dealership about an hour away. He said he has three old Toy enthusiast mechs on staff. That's what I should do. Get it done right on the third try or get ready for the bad news. "Forget about it!" HeeHee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whyverne14 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 Oh, and I should try to talk the Toy dealership into my free O2 sensor. I'm coming up on 80k! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Well .. a new timing cover is cheap. Labor at a prof. shop is not. I don't understand the "goop" not working if the last guy had any clue as to what he was doing (or "her" to be fair). "Goop" is used OEM in many applications to eliminate the need for making and stocking thousands of different gaskets. When the correct RTV sealant is used - even to fill a hole a mouse could crawl through - it holds up to gas and oil and crankcase pressures just fine. Certainly NOT for combustion or exhaust leaks that but is something quite different. RTV also does not work well when applied to something dripping in oil. It was a headache we had to deal with when John Deere eliminated gaskets on final drive housings on log skidders. We'd have to go out into the woods to replace one. Take it off - and the housing would drip oil for hours and using a "liquid gasket maker" was a challenge. Deere via Loctite came out with something we used a primer and curing agent on so the new gasket would set up in 15 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 I got thinking . . (I do that once in awhile). If the last mechanic was an almost-functioning idiot - maybe he forced the cover off without taking out that little bolt on top and broke that area. If he did THAT - then yeah, no "goop" is going to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 I had my head off last year. Apparently there is a water jacket in the block very close to the timing cover. You have to be careful not to over torque that bolt and strip the aluminum threads. Water will go into the oil pan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whyverne14 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 1 hour ago, jdemaris said: I got thinking . . (I do that once in awhile). If the last mechanic was an almost-functioning idiot - maybe he forced the cover off without taking out that little bolt on top and broke that area. If he did THAT - then yeah, no "goop" is going to fix it. I really should get a second opinion on where the oil is coming from first. Thanks again, you're the greatest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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