timhewitt85 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I don't know why or where to look next. Heres what I do know. The Battery fully charged, the output is good, and only 6 month old. The Starter is 18 month old. The Alternate functioned well last time the vehicle was running. When I take my ignition to "ON" all electrical components and dash lights are on. When I take my ignition to "Start", the ignition clicks once,the Radio and clock go out, and the dash lights slightly dim. No noise is heard other that a very quite hum. No turnover, no clicking. The truck essentially does nothing. Also the readings from the battery never change, so it isn't even trying to draw from the battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Sounds like a major short somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Major short -> smoke. See any smoke? My 'go to' first thing to do is to make sure you have good grounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2ndopinion Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I'm with Derek. It can't be a short, as the battery voltage would drop. Either the starter is no good (try jumping or bench testing), or you have an open somewhere - bad ground, fusable link... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I don't know why or where to look next. Heres what I do know. The Battery fully charged, the output is good, and only 6 month old. The Starter is 18 month old. The Alternate functioned well last time the vehicle was running. When I take my ignition to "ON" all electrical components and dash lights are on. When I take my ignition to "Start", the ignition clicks once,the Radio and clock go out, and the dash lights slightly dim. No noise is heard other that a very quite hum. No turnover, no clicking. The truck essentially does nothing. Also the readings from the battery never change, so it isn't even trying to draw from the battery. What you are describing was very common on General Motors cars and trucks up into the late 90s. On them it was caused by a loose nut on the starter-motor. GM used that post as the only connection between the battery hot lead - and the rest of the electrical system. It had nothing to do with the actual starter - just happened to be the spot that GM used as a high-power junction place. Sounds like you have the same sort of problem but it won't be on the starter motor. In fact, you don't even know if it's a bad ground connection or a bad "hot-positive" connection. If you had access to a carbon-pile type load-tested - it could be easily figured out. Without - not so easy. It would behoove you to look at the wiring diagram in a Toyota manual and find out where all the high-power junctions are. What you have is a poor connection that can flow low amps (enough for dash lights, radio, etc.). But as soon as you put any kind of real load on the line - like trying to start the engine - the bad spot gets hot and you lose all power. Like I said, a common issue in older vehicles but usually in American-made stuff. Japanese were famous for not having these sorts of issues. You can buy a load-tester from Harbor Freight cheap. MUCH cheaper then they used to be when they were made in the USA. If you can get your hands on one - first do this. Put the positive lead on your positive battery post and negative lead on the negative battery post. Then crank it up to q 200-300 amp load and see if voltage stays above 9 volts. If it DOES - the battery and posts are fine. Then - take the negative lead off the battery post and clamp it to a chassis ground instead. Load it to 200-300 amps again. If voltage now drops below 9 volts - you know you have a bad ground. If this test checks out as "good" - then it time to start checking positive connections in different parts of the vehicle. Like where-ever your Toyota gets its positive power from. I don't remember off hand. Look at the cable coming off the battery. Find out where it attaches to. Somewhere it will be split where part goes to the starter and part to the rest of the truck - unless you have two separate cables coming from the battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Yep a major bad connection ground cable from battery to engine would be a good place to start Another thing I have found is replacement cable ends the kind that have a bolt on cable clamp if that is the case remove the clamps and clean under them and the cable it's self too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAatTheCape Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I would check all your connections - anything from a bad battery connector, a bad battery cable, poor ground on negative cable or engine to frame ground, bad starter all could come into play. of course a weak battery could easily do what you are describing - how long has this camper set up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I looked at the Toyota wiring diagram. Assuming the battery is good it goes like this. If the problem is with the positive-polarity power - the problem HAS to be at the battery terminal on the positive battery post. That is the only place such a problem can happen that affects both the starter and the dash-lights. If you are SURE that terminal is good - then the problem HAS to be a ground. But . . the starter-motor has its own separate ground, and the chassis has another. So such a problem like you describe would be two bad grounds. You DID have your battery load tested - correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhewitt85 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 Thanks for all the quick replies. Yes there is no smoke. I will see what effect jumping has on it. All I have used so far is a multi-meter, so it sounds like I need to control my troubleshooting better with a load-tester. It last ran for a fall trip. Had some intermediate issues with starting then, and when it got home it hasn't started since. I thought it was a battery issue because my readings during the trip when I was having issues were showing a big drop in voltage during starting to under 9 volts (which is what my research lead me to believe is bad and looks like that is common knowledge here too). So when I couldn't get it to start at home, that was the first thing I changed. I have some homework to do with the information you guys have given me and check back in. I might just have to pay somebody for this issue. I can do mechanics, but electricity has always escaped me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Electrical is not my strong point either. I believe you are saying you put in a new battery? Armed with a lack of knowledge and not having the proper tools I would take the battery out and have it load tested, many places will do this for free. Then at least you will be pretty sure you do not have a new bad battery. I keep watching for a simple starting system test for the DIY'er with a multimeter online but have not found one? Only my opinion Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I looked at the Toyota wiring diagram. Assuming the battery is good it goes like this. If the problem is with the positive-polarity power - the problem HAS to be at the battery terminal on the positive battery post. That is the only place such a problem can happen that affects both the starter and the dash-lights. If you are SURE that terminal is good - then the problem HAS to be a ground. But . . the starter-motor has its own separate ground, and the chassis has another. So such a problem like you describe would be two bad grounds. You DID have your battery load tested - correct?No it is not limited to the positive in order for things to work it has to have a negative battery connection also. If the lights go out under heavy load there is not enough capacity for current flow from either the positive or the negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2ndopinion Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 When I said "jump" I was meaning straight to the starter, to bypass other possible issues, and jump the solenoid as well - basically the same as bench testing, but without removing the starter and testing it under engine cranking load as well. If it works that way, you know the issue isn't the battery or starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 No it is not limited to the positive in order for things to work it has to have a negative battery connection also. If the lights go out under heavy load there is not enough capacity for current flow from either the positive or the negative. Do we speak and read the same language? I did not say it was limited to a "POS" problem. Go back and re-read. I stated that if it IS a "POS" problem,the issue has to be at the positive battery terminal. If a "NEG" problem it can be a ground issue. It can also be a battery-capacity issue. Again - the reason why, IF it is a "POS" issue, the issue must be at battery terminal is thus. The RV has power to the main system until put under the load of the starter being engaged. Assuming the grounds are known to be good - then the problem must be where to two main POS power leads intersect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 The 88-89 Toyota trucks have two separate positive power leads. One goes directly the starter and the other to the power-distribution area that has fusible links. Those two leads "cross paths" at the positive battery terminal. The truck also has at least two separate grounds from the battery and maybe more. One runs directly to the starter motor. The other bolts to passenger-side inner fender. The aluminum intake manifold on the 2.4 EFI engine has a ground cable also. And behind the cylinder-head on the firewall is another. Again - if you turn the key "on" and the dash lights work, and then when you engage the starter they go out - the issue can be narrowed down like this. If - and Mr.Maine - not my use of "if." If it is a positive issue - this can only happen at the point there the two main positive leads intersect. That is at the positive battery post connector. And IF it is from a chassis-neg (aka ground) issue - it usually goes like this. The big gauge ground wire that goes directly to the starter has bad contact. So when the key is turned "on" the dash lights work. But why you engage the starter - and its heavy-gauge ground is bad - it will try to get 200 amps worth of NEG power through the small 10 gauge (or smaller) chassis ground wires. That overloads them and can burn them up. And now one more IF. If the battery itself if bad, the same symptoms can occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2ndopinion Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I'm sure this isn't related at all, but FWIW...There is one more ground for the engine - the driveshaft. It is much more effective in a manual trans vehicle than an auto, but it is a ground.I was talking with a guy at a trans shop, and he said they were baffled when they drove a car in, but they went to start it after pulling the driveshaft, and it wouldn't start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I'm not sure if you are referring to the steel frame as the "ground" or the actual NEG post on the battery. The engine, trans, driveshaft, rear axle and springs are all rubber mounted and insulated from the steel frame. That with small exceptions - like a manual trans setup with all mechanical clutch linkage (not hydraulic like most Toyota's use). The only metal conducting bond that comes to mine is the steel flexible parking brake cables. The exhaust system can be a "ground" connection or "bond" between the engine/trans/driveshaft/rear-axle IF the OEM rubber mounts are bad and someone had hooked it solid somewhere. When all is as it was when it left the factory - not counting the factory added bonding "ground" straps and parking-brake cables - I cannot think of anything that connects the rubber-mounted parts to the frame and body. Maybe I'm forgetting something. On most autos that are built with body-on-frame construction like our Toyotas - there are three entities that are rubber isolated from each other. #1 is the frame, #2 is the body, and #3 is the engine/trans/driveshaft/rear-axle/springs. So somehow - all three have to be bonded to one another IF any serve as a common place to get negative current. The Japanese vehicles were famous for not relying on those things for NEG and using extra wires instead. One big reason why so many 60s-90s Ford, GM, and Chrysler cars and trucks were plagued with gremlin-like electrical problems when Japanese vehicles were not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydancer2992 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Tap the starter with a tire tool or hammer. Seems to reset the solenoid. Has helped with several of my starters as they started to go bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Tap the starter with a tire tool or hammer. Seems to reset the solenoid. Has helped with several of my starters as they started to go bad. That might work if it was just the starter not working. It cannot have any effect on the rest of the system going dead when he/she tries to start it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 It is a classic bad connection issue some where it does not matter what polarity it is, battery terminals, poor ground even a junk battery with an internal problem all though they generally explode first. The connection can not stand the starter load but will handle a smaller load. It's going to be a big connection some where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Get yourself one of these and you can properly diagnose the problem in 10 minutes - regardless if a connection or a battery issue. My AC Delco load tester cost me near $200 and that was 30 years ago. It is amazing that you can buy these things so cheap now. No excuse for any real repair shop not have one. It eliminates a lot of guess work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Don't forget the 20% off super coupon from Harbor Freight. http://www.harborfreight.com/digitalsavings.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 you would love mine it is a 1940 to 1950s sun with a heavy metal cast face . bought for 25 from an old timer a freand some years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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