Choosing a Toyhome sticky/pinned?

[rickjames8]

Hello all,

My name is Rick and I've lurked on this site for quite some time. I've been a full time traveler in one way or another for the past decade or so. I'm currently living in France, but will be moving to the USA sometime in June with my wife.

We're landing in to Philadelphia (where my parents live) with plans to buy a motorhome, then drive it around the country for a few months, and end up on the west coast, driving around looking for a place to live. So we will probably be living in our RV full time for a year or so. After that time, I can see it being a vehicle we hang on to and use for adventure trips from time to time.

I've always been in love with Toyota motorhomes. The closest I've come to owning one was converting the back of my 88 4runner in to a mini-camper. I had a bed and a mountainbike in the back with tons of storage under the bed. I planned to take it around the world (I outfitted it with airbags, a second gas tank, aux lights, beefed up suspension, to name just a few) but it was stolen while I was in LA. Things happen. So I finished the trip by bus.

Toyotas just run in my blood. My dad has owned a dozen since the 60s. I've owned a couple too and just love the way a toyota feels/sounds/drives. There really is no other motorhome I'd consider getting. So I've done a fair bit of research and decided what I'd love to find is a 21ft Sunrader with a 22re and manual trans. My 88 4runner had a 22re. I found it a capable motor and easy to work on. I owned a 92 4runner V6 which I found disappointing. Somehow the V6 seemed less powerful than the 22re. Can anyone who's driven comparable 22re/V6 motorhomes comment on the difference. Maybe with a camper on the back the V6 comes in to its own?

What I'm finding is that if I limit myself to just 22re's, I'm going to have a harder time finding one. But it seems like V6 owners are happy with the power.

So then I thought that if I wanted to stay with a 22re model, I could look for a non-sunrader model. Although I like the idea of a fiberglass MH. Lighter, less prone to leaks, and (perhaps I'm mistaken here) water damage can not damage the frame of the MH, as in non-fiberglass ones. But is it worth the trade-off of paying more? (and having to search longer/farther). I am looking for the most economical full-sized (non-chinook, etc) MH. I just figured with the lighter weight, the Sunrader should get better mileage - is that true?

I'm willing to spend the time needed to find the right MH, and also willing to travel. Well, within reason. I know that the time of year I'm looking will not be a buyers market so I want to broaden my search criteria if I can.

So my questions are:

1) What are peoples thoughts on 22re vs v6 in terms of reliability, power and mileage.

2) How important would it be to chose a manual over automatic?

3) Sunraders seem to be priced at a couple thousand more than other toyhomes of similar condition. Are there enough advantages to justify the extra cost and extra searching?

Lastly, there seems to be a lot of very knowledgeable people on this forum. Perhaps someone could make a sticky (pin) called 'Toy Homes for Noobs'. Going over some of the basics of models offered, the options, the engines, the differences. Perhaps it exists somewhere already and I just didn't see it. If so, if someone could point em to it, that'd be great.

-Rick

travelhead.com

[Derek up North]

I doubt you'll find much of a weight advantage (if any) with the 21' Sunrader. Any way you cut it, it's going to be near or over the GVWR.

[stamar]

The first thing you need to realize is that almost all 22re toyhomes are automatic.

A 4 speed 22re motorhome is very rare, a sunrader even rarer. There may be 50 in existance.

A v6 5 speed is allso very rare. A v6 5speed sunrader might not even exist, its rare enough that I've never heard of one yet.

So you're worrying about the wrong thing, its really carburated manual. Vs fuel injected auto. You tell me what you prefer. I've actually had both and I ppprefer fuel injected auto....

So a manual toyhome in general will have the 22r engine carburated. That should change your general thoughts before you start looking. I remember having to come to the same conclusion myself when I was looking for one.

Almost all manuals are 22r.

[Skydancer2992]

I owned an 85 4Runner with the 22RE for about 15 years. Later, I upgraded to a 96 4Runner with the V6.

When I wanted a camper, it was going to be a Toyota.

I have a V6 91 Warrior, which I'm very happy with.

To me, the Warrior is comparable to the 85 4runner in terms of acceleration and passing. Both vehicles, I turn off the AC to get a little extra oomph when passing on the interstate. The V6 has a lot of torque compared to the 22RE. I get a lot of power in the 2000 - 3000 rpm range. The 22RE needed to whine at 4000-5000 for similar performance.

The V6 is a non-interference engine, the 22RE is not. The timing belt breaks. Get a new timing belt and be on your way. On my 96 4Runner, I've put about 140,000 miles on a timing belt and not had a problem with breaking or slipping. the 22RE needed a new chain and gears after 140,000. Cost for timing belt change was $300 vice $1000 for the chain and gears and guides.

The advantage of a V6 motorhome is not having to worry about what kind of axle it comes with, not worrying about whether driving in overdrive will damage the transmission and further, having the power to go keep up with traffic on the interstate.

I use the factory shop manuals to carry out all the repairs and maintenance. The 3.0 liter V6 is an easy engine to work on. Toyota did a good job of standardizing bolt sizes. With 10mm, 12 mm, 14 mm, 16mm sockets and wrenches you can just about dismantle and rebuild the vehicle.

My Warrior has 230,000 miles. I expect it to go a lot further, like the 340,000 miles my 96 4runner has gone. The 22RE was blowing blue smoke at 235,000 miles but that may have been from driving pedal to the metal.

After owning a V6 camper, it would be hard to go back to a four cylinder.

[rickjames8]

Stamar,

Thanks for the info. I also prefer EFI. i had read that the manuals were fewer, but didn't realize they were that rare. My wanting one was to be able to maximize fuel economy. I know some people swear by their 22r's, but I much prefer the EFI to a carb.

Skydancer,

This is exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for - thanks. I know peoples claims are all over the board with MPG, but it seems like people who track their economy get slightly better with the 4cyl, but only by 1 mpg or so. I'd also seen some good articles on how to maximize the FE of a 22re. Are there a lot of aftermarket goodies for the V6 (headers, exhaust, etc?) to give the engine a little better performance/economy?

-Rick

[rickjames8]

I doubt you'll find much of a weight advantage (if any) with the 21' Sunrader. Any way you cut it, it's going to be near or over the GVWR.

So are the 21ft sunraders about the same weight as the 21ft non-fiberglass (dolphin, sea breeze, etc)?

-Rick

[stamar]

i think all of them get about the same gas mileage strangely enough. the carburated ones have manuals that make up for the efi. I believe that when in tune those could get the best gas mileage.

a 21 foot toyhome gets 16-17 mpg on the freeway I believe all of them do.

a 4 speed 22re I predict gets 18-19 and an 18 footer might get 20 mpg thats all academic though

an 18 foot 4 speed sunrader 22re is very rare id buy it. thats what i wanted for a minute until i realized they dont go up for sale often. Ive seen them up for sale but like I said not very often. what happens way more often is people with the 22r advertise it as a 22re. and i dont believe there was ever a 22re 5 speed toyhome made, what you think adds up to the best mpg doesnt exist or is a one off.

I think a sunrader gets better mpg than a dolphin it has to from less wind resistance its like 6 inches shorter. i wouldnt say a lot. a sunrader is smaller.

also in my opinion it would be easier to change an auto efi toyhome to manual someday than to change a 22r to a 22re.

I think people might disagree with that who are more experienced with engine swaps, it might be a lot easier but its more technical changing the head and the computer and etc.

[stamar]

I saw an 18 foot efi 4 speed sunrader for sale discussed here and I think they wanted maybe 4-5k I THINK it was for sale in washington. Derrick uses a meta search thing for toyhomes I would start to use if thats what you need.

that one is long since gone but they do come up. That would be something where youre ready to get on a plane at any time sort of thing its not going to come up in philadelphia for you.

[Bunneys]

So my questions are:

1) What are peoples thoughts on 22re vs v6 in terms of reliability, power and mileage.

2) How important would it be to chose a manual over automatic?

3) Sunraders seem to be priced at a couple thousand more than other toyhomes of similar condition. Are there enough advantages to justify the extra cost and extra searching?

Are there a lot of aftermarket goodies for the V6 (headers, exhaust, etc?) to give the engine a little better performance/economy?

-Rick

Hi Rick.

I'm also a long time Toyota owner, when i was looking I did not single out any brands. I wanted a Winnebago, but was open to all the models. Look for the one that is in the best shape. Be read to pounce, when it comes up for sale, if it is a good deal and in good shape it will sell fast... I like the V6. 89 (Truck year) and on have the V6. Like all toyota stuff, newer is generally better... whit that model change you have the better auto trans, full 1 ton chassis, largest cab, likely factory CC (I have seen some without) and the 3-VZ V6 engine. Not the best engine Toyota has ever made, but still a Toyota engine. I have only ever owned the V6 RV so i can't tell you the difference, but i personally would think the 4cly is under powered for the weight. It was under powered in my 1990 4Runner! I did own a 85 4Runner too, (I really miss that one) Auto is not too bad, I have always been a stick person, but now have no problem with the auto... I guess it is no big deal for me, but it is personal choice. It is going to be much harder to find a 5-speed in the newer style. (i have seen them though, so if it is what you want, you can get it)

As for performance upgrades for the V6... Not really, this engine does not respond well to most things. even if you were to dump a wack of cash into it, it will still not make much more power... just the basics, make it breath better, air filter and exhaust... no headers available for the auto version (column shift)

But if you did have the V6, swapping to the newer (Much better designed) 5VZE is a project that has been done by a few people. (i hope to do this some time soon too!)

Good luck and welcome to the group! :-)

Andrew.

[stamar]

i like the column shifter on the newer ones too. I forgot to say subtract 1-2 mpg for the v6. In theory add 2 mpg for a 5 speed v6 that makes it the same. Very nice to have all that space for coffee ccups and cds in a column shifter model. and aluminum wheels they usually have, mine are rusty steel duallys makes me cringe.

so a 5 speed v6 is another nice one. Ive seen mostly odysseys like that, and thats a nice model also. Maybe the best model.

newer is better in most things. The later ones start to get more luxury with the generator and the microwave.

Heavier too even as the motor gets higher the weight overloads it.

[Bunneys]

and aluminum wheels they usually have

I'd love to see those....

[stamar]

https://www.google.c...WMYnDigLmo4D4Aw

what wheels are on your 89?

[Bunneys]

https://www.google.c...WMYnDigLmo4D4Aw

what wheels are on your 89?

Same as all stock Toyota ones...

Can you post up a picture of the "aluminum wheels they usually have"?

[stamar]

I just did

[stamar]

are yours steel?

[stamar]

youve got to meet me halfway to see whats malfunctioning. Do you not understand aluminum wheels or do you think toyhomes didnt come with them?

[stamar]

your wheels do look steel like mine. I couldnt tell you when they all became aluminum but I can tell you they all did.

[Maineah]

The automatics are pretty tough transmissions I'm a diehard stick shift person but prefer an automatic in a MH it makes it a lot easier to drive. The 6 does have a bit more power and you gain a lockup converter (better cruzing, a little quieter, cooler running trans) No matter what set up you have they are not going to win any races. Nova Star was also a fiberglass unit harder to find. Sunrader has a cult following and you will pay dear for them. The 6 had issues with head gaskets and are a lot more complex as far as repairs the 20R through 22RE have been around for ages simple mostly back yard fixable and parts are everywhere. To me it would not much matter what engine it had as long as the coach was nice the 22RE was probably one of the best 4 cylinder engines ever made. A good coach with no leaks is probably the most desirable no matter who made it. If it does not leak it will but that is something I consider maintenance if you take care of the coach it will take care of you remember these things are over 20 years old and calking does not last that long so if it has not been recently resealed it needs it seal it up and you’ll have a nice dry ride. Resealing is not just for Toyotas they all leak eventually if not taken care of. Once it’s rotten that is where the fun begins not for the faint of heart and that to me would be a deal breaker there are a lot of guys on the site have gotten some really good deals and have rebuilt the coaches if that is something you can do more power to you. A must also is a full floating 1 ton rear in any thing 21 foot and most of the smaller ones too.

[stamar]

I agree with maineah about the full floating rear on a 21 foot is the most important. I think Im a rare owner that also had a 21 foot fake dually and I was too nervous to take it out on trips.

I havent seen a lot of them but maybe theres 5% out there that are fake duallys id never get those I dont want that project.

[linda s]

The wheels you posted Stamar are not Toyota wheels. No Toyota motorhome ever came with aluminum wheels. Just steel like Bunnys posted. Even the new ones you can order from Custom and Commercial Wheels are steel but you can have them chromed for a price.

Linda S

[Bunneys]

I just did

Nope, your link was to a google picture search with noting to to with a Toyota 14" dually rim... Please if I am missing it I would live to know... I'm hoping you actually have knowledge on this...

are yours steel?

Yes, mine are steel. just like the ones pictured above, but I do not have the fancy stainless steel wheel covers pictured...

youve got to meet me halfway to see whats malfunctioning. Do you not understand aluminum wheels or do you think toyhomes didnt come with them?

I believe Toyota never made a 14" aluminum dually rim, again i hope I am wrong, I'd love to get a set to replace my steel ones...

You being in the auto business, must know more than me i am hoping here... I have been looking for a very long time all across the world, found some fancy ones in Japan, but they would not work, I'd just love to see the ones you say are around on all of them.... Can you post up one picture... ?

[stamar]

i must be wrong then they look aluminum to me. Ill make a note of that. thanks for clear communication

its possible the lack of rust makes them look shinier to me. They may be the same thing.

Ive actually owned two toyhomes and looked at a lot of them but I got my first one this year 2012 and definitely havent owned a newer one yet.

to me the wheels looked aluminum. but they could be fake. must be actually because I cant find 14 inch dually aluminum wheels anywhere like you said. they come in 16 inch and higher.

Ive worked on used car lots but I dont right now. Definitely never sold motor homes these toyhomes are my first official motorhomes Ive owned, I had camper vans and drop in campers before.

[Skydancer2992]

Looking at the Yotatech site, there are headers for the V6. A couple of guys have put engine or exhaust driven turbo's on as well. Seems like a lot of work for dubious results. Without sufficient back pressure, some of the incoming mixture will scavenge out the exhuast valve and efficiency will be lost. With reciprocating airplane engines, creating back pressure is usually what's required to increase efficiency.

The best upgrade for power is to put a 3.4 L into the camper. It will mate to the existing transmission but will require some custom exhaust work.

Captain Jack's Swap:

http://s1190.beta.photobucket.com/user/Captainjack1748/library/Motorhome%20v6%20Engine%20Swap/#/user/Captainjack1748/library/Motorhome%20v6%20Engine%20Swap?&_suid=135697954096003813987265738777

An good article on the 3VZ design:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/2496/rebuilding_the_toyota_30l_v6.aspx

[Maineah]

If your are looking for power you'll not find it without some engine displacement in some things that weights 6,000 plus pounds.

[rickjames8]

Wow, wow and wow. I've been busy for a couple of days and haven't been able to check in here. What an amazing wealth of information. Thank you all. Based on what I've read, I feel pretty good about expanding my search to include all models, 22re or V6, fiberglass or non. Like all vehicles, I think the easiest way to get better mileage is to adjust the nut between the seat and the steering wheel.

Thanks again for all the lengthy replies. Its people like you who take the time to write out that kind of reply which makes me know I'm choosing the right type of MH.

Someone mentioned a meta-search engine. Do you have any good recommendations? I currently use searchtempest. I search nationwide and will travel to go look at something that seems like it has what I want and is well cared for. I search regularly now to get an idea of what prices toyhomes are listed for so when it comes time to buy I know if it's reasonable.

-Rick