yota_mkii Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi, i'm driving a 1983 mini cruiser across the country - trying make the quartzite meeting for some advice! we tried to use an inverter to run some music - the radio is non functional - and the inverter got fried. testing the voltage, i find that the whole system is running at 18+ volts DC. this may also be why the left rear signal keeps going out. has anybody ever had such an issue, or have any advice on a solution? a little worried, as i know its bad to charge a battery at 18 volts ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90toydolphin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 alternator or regulator(first), that's where i would start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Stop by your local Autoparts store, they can put it on a machine and check battery and alternator. HOWEVER, before you do that, look very carefully at and around the connections on the Alternator AND the Battery. You looking for bad connections/ terminal lugs, AND connections that may not be made, i.e. a wire broke off, or a terminal lug that isn't connected under the bolt. give all the connections a little tug at the wires (I've seen wires break up inside the terminals, you think they look good, but they are not. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yota_mkii Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 okay, i'll try to check around, and then stop at a parts place... my co-pilot is getting upset with the lack of music Where by the way is the regulator? I'm assuming this is a voltage regulator? I didn't know that there was one of these, rather i thought that it just came straight off the alternator .. (where by the way is the regulator?) thanks a ton, this is really helpful and cost efficent way of fixing things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I don't know about on your year, but SOME alternators have them built in to the alternator. Some are separate. Edit: A quick Google search turned up this:- "... the '87 alternator has the voltage regulator attached, whereas in an '83 its on the driver's side inner fender." http://www.yotatech....problem-149973/ So I'd suggest you follow the heavy wire from the alternator. It should lead you to the voltage regulator on the inner fender, assuming the above info is correct. Edit 2:- Here's what you're looking for:- Source:- http://www.ebay.com/itm/1983-Toyota-Pickup-voltage-regulator-27700-38113-/280669128817?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item41592f0871 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yota_mkii Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 just a quick note - problem is resolved by ordering the exact part that derek posted above - literally used the link and ordered it - 30 bucks shipped in 3 days, 2 bolts and a connector later the voltage problem is solved. Can't wait to go get an inverter - anyone run a coffee maker in their motorhome? I'm trying to find a good inverter, thx all, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 A coffee maker is a #1 priority in my life too. If you look at the specs, you'll see that they're not all created equal. I managed to find a little 4 cup one that uses less than 1/2 the watts of a 12 cupper. I don't remember the exact number. That said, I went and bought a 1500w inverter anyway, so running a small microwave should be possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yota_mkii Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 how did you wire the inverter, and also how much did it cost? brand name? i passed on a 400 watt walmart one ($40), and also passed on an 800 watt black and decker (80$)... regular coffee maker seems to run aroiund 1000 watts, but i saw a small 'mr coffee' at 600 watts, which sounds like what you're talking about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Here's what I bought:- http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/B002AP32GM Waiter did a great write-up on his installation of the same unit:- http://toyotamotorho...?showtopic=3682 As I recall, the little coffee maker I picked up in a Thrift Store ($4) uses about 350w! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Here's what I bought:- http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/B002AP32GM Waiter did a great write-up on his installation of the same unit:- http://toyotamotorho...?showtopic=3682 As I recall, the little coffee maker I picked up in a Thrift Store ($4) uses about 350w! how big of an inverter would it take to run a roof AC unit by coleman? (11,000 BTU)? Of course this would be with Engine running....with a Powermaster 180 Amp Alternator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Its going to take about 8000w to hot start it and around 2000w to run it. So your alternator is going to be on the edge for running (don't forget it has to run the engine too) and your going to need a GOOD battery to hot start it (650 amps at 13v). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Looking at the Dometic manual, Looks like about 13 amps running, probably close to 20amps to start. I have a 5000 btu. I keep saying that I'm going to try and run it off my 1500 watt inverter, just haven't done it yet. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Locked rotor draw is over 60 amps. Hot starts will draw this level of power for 2-3 seconds in hot weather. A hot shot starting capacitor will reduce the draw. Even with a running draw of 13 amps thats still 130 amps into the inverter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Locked rotor draw is over 60 amps. Hot starts will draw this level of power for 2-3 seconds in hot weather. A hot shot starting capacitor will reduce the draw. Even with a running draw of 13 amps thats still 130 amps into the inverter That sounds nasty... so could a 4000w continuous 8000w peak pull it off with a 180 amp powermaster alternator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 4000 watts should be able to run it, if it will start. The locked rotor is just that, if the rotor is locked up and not capable of turning, it will draw 60 amps. (Not a big deal, your inverter will just overload and probably reset) The book said 2500 watt generator will run it, but keep in mind that the generator puts out pure sine wave. The Inverter puts out a square wave (The inexpensive ones they call it "Modified Sine wave") Sign wave vs square wave could be problem. The only way to tell would be to hook it up and try. 180 amps from the Alternator would definatly be OK, when the A/C is running, you would see a load of around 130 amps at 12 volts You definatly want to keep the wire size large (maybe #2 or #0) and short . you might consider mounting the inverter in the engine compartment. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I think I'm starting to understand why people (that I've read about) don't try and run their roof air off an inverter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Newell who builds $ 1,000,000 motor homes tried several times to do this with very large inverters. They finally decided the answer was run the generator. They were pulling over 300amps @ 12v any lose connection or the tiniest corrosion and there was a fire. WME I think I'm starting to understand why people (that I've read about) don't try and run their roof air off an inverter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanman Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Derek up North I think I'm starting to understand why people (that I've read about) don't try and run their roof air off an inverter! I guess we have a small roof AC, says it's 11/12 000 btu but draws 5/6 Amps according to the ampprobe. This jives with my much newer 12000BTU home portable units which put out more than twice the air, and the air is a whole lot colder and they show 10/13 Amps. The Dolphin microwave draws 10/14 Amps. We make coffe with the propane rangetop. Vanman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I think I'm starting to understand why people (that I've read about) don't try and run their roof air off an inverter! yep I'm sold, the inverter idea is just too silly and dangerous for small car stuff. Ive read stories on other sites of RV'rs doing this no problem in class A's.. in fact some come with inverters to run rooftops; but they also have 2 alternators on a bus engine with battery bank.. Yep.. I will definately not go with an inverter and instead willgo with an inverter... a Honda... can get a nice one for less cost and weight. very quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yota_mkii Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 hey Guys! Sorry to bring bad news, but the voltage problem is persisting. I've posted the following over at yotatech... it is fine at idle, but as soon as i rev up, it starts climbing to 18 v. again. My battery is VERY HOT. I need to get these volts down, but not sure what to try next:: Hi Guys,! I'm driving a 1984 Toyota Mini Cruiser (motorhome built on a pickup frame) across the country and am having tons of "fun" making everything keep working. Ongoing issue, the system is putting out as much as 18 volts while running, and this is causing all sorts of problems (blowing lights, frying inverters, cooking my battery, etc. etc.). I actually already replaced the voltage regulator with one ("tested", used) off the internet, and the problem persists. its a 22r engine with the old alternator (volt regulator is separate). First, does anyone have experience with this systen, who could provide some advice for troubleshooting this issue? there are two connections coming from the alternator - one goes to the volt regulator (3 wires), and the other goes directly to the battery isolator (there are two batteries on this rig). I'm wondering if its just hooked up wrong - like shouldn't the wire go from the alt to the reg, and then to the isolator? or is it correct that the regulator gets its own line to the alternator, and then regulates the signal that goes to the battery. anyways i'm stumped, and also a little worried because i happened to check the 2nd battery after a mountain run yesterday, and it was HOT. which means its way overcharging, which is v. bad news. I've got to get these volts down asap, and i don' t know what else to do short of replacing the alternator. any advice would be greatly appreciated! also if anyone has a wiring diagram for the old alt/regulator setup, thanks and take good care, somewhere in new mexico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Pretty much the only thing that will make it over charge is the regulator. The output is proportional to the field voltage (controlled by the regulator) if it's high it will over charge you may want to check your grounds (black wire) a bad ground can confuse the regulator there is a ground wire at the alternator that goes back to the regulator and probably a case ground at the regulator where it attaches to the truck body make sure it's clean. If it's is a used unit "tested good" may mean that it did show a charge but not how much. A full voltage field can push your voltage to 20 volts+ at max current output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 there are two connections coming from the alternator - one goes to the volt regulator (3 wires), and the other goes directly to the battery isolator (there are two batteries on this rig). I'm wondering if its just hooked up wrong - like shouldn't the wire go from the alt to the reg, and then to the isolator? or is it correct that the regulator gets its own line to the alternator, and then regulates the signal that goes to the battery. Sounds logical to me that the wiring would go from:- Alternator -> Voltage Regulator -> Battery Isolator -> Batteries. BTW, if I was you, I'd disconnect your house battery until you manage to sort out this problem. No point in ruining it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 No the regulator lives in its own world. The wires are small and pass low current to control the alternator. The large output wire should go to the isolator. Best is to go to a place that rebuilds alternators and have them check things out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 BACK IN THE DAY those external regulators were mechcanical and later solid state Bos ch made good non solid state type. ihave had brand new solid state that were no good and they are more easly damaged tTHE curict for charging TWO batterys is Different with a external reg you should go too a Auto ELETRIC shop BY 1983 they may have only used solid state did you by that used i under stand cost issues But tested still doesent mean its right sory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm starting to get a little confused with this thread it seems to be drifting between inverters, isolators and overcharging. Regardless of the type of isolator you have it will not make it overcharge it may make it not charge but not overcharge unless some one has done some very creative wiring with the isolator and by now it probably would have set the blasted thing on fire. And I agree with WRE 100%, running your A/C with an inverter is foolish with the money spent on all that stuff you could buy a nice generator and that would work. I can all so say that used electrical parts probably are not the way to go you have a nice used regulator that you took off it is a "tested good" unit it does make the alternator charge and boy does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yota_mkii Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 okay, well i have to say you guys are more helpful than anyone at yotatech. just to clarify, i'm not interested in info about inverters or the isolator, these are both working fine no problem. . The post by Maineah, "The output is proportional to the field voltage (controlled by the regulator) if it's high it will over charge you may want to check your grounds (black wire) a bad ground can confuse the regulator there" is actually super helpful - that is exactly what is going on, i am getting close to 20 volts. the house battery is already toast , or almost toast, i swapped it the other day and it would barely crank the engine. swapped it back right away. as i said, after a long run it is VERY HOT (i'm typing by light from its current right now, which is dimming so its possible i made a mistake getting a used volt reg - but can these really be found new? i didn't know. there is one thing - at the back of the rig, under the gas stove, is my main fuse panel and 120v - 12 v inverter. there is a black wire hanging loose there, which may be a ground. i can't really imagine a wire way back there affecting the current generated by the alt, but i figured i'd mention it. i wish there was a way to test what the volt reg is doing... I am going to stop by a parts store tomorrow and see what they can test. take good care and thanks for all the suggestions (still very interested in hearing any other information, ), cheers , Tucson AZ headed to Quartzsite tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I googled "83 Toyota Truck Overcharging". Returned a lot of results. It appears that there were several different alternator s used on the truck ( 40 and 55 amp), and the regulator MUST match the alternator. i.e. if the wrong regulator is used, BAM, overvoltage. If this was always a problem, then I suspect you have a mixup. If it was working OK for months and years, I would suspect that the regulator went bad, and then was replaced with the wrong regulator. One thing I ran across in the "google" was that it was possible to replace / upgrade the alternator with an internal regulator type. Probably need to look at the alternator very carefully to determine if its a 40 or 55, then make sure you really have the correct regulator. at the back of the rig, under the gas stove, is my main fuse panel and 120v - 12 v inverter. there is a black wire hanging loose there, which may be a ground. Although this may be a problem, I don't think its related to what your experiencing now. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Yes John they did have different regulators one was a relay type and the other was solid state. The relay one was a good bit bigger and usually found on very early trucks. The solid state one was for Canada and cold areas of the US it was the most common one. I do not believe the plugs will mate up if I remember correctly one was flat and the other was round. Any way you do bring up a good point if it comes down to it is to replace it with a newer Toyota alternator the wiring is in place just a little splice here and there and it would work that may even be cheaper in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I just Googled the PN given on EBay. Led me here:- http://www.toyotapartszone.com/oem/toyota~regulator~assy~generator~27700-38113.html Says the PN is not available. There must be a replacement available, otherwise there would be Toyota Pickups littering the highways. But they also have a spot to enter your VIN. I'd give that a try to see where it leads. Did you happen to keep the VR you removed? Got the PN? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yota_mkii Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 yes, i have the old regulator.... it is a 27700-38113-84. i believe the replacement from ebay is the same #. interestingly enough, i tried a brand-new regulator from Autozone. Their diagnostic told me that the alternator diode was ok, but the regulator was not. So i bought a brand new regulator and installed it,... no difference, and i had them test it again... same result - good diode, bad regulator. SO its telling me theres a bad regulator, even when the regulator is brand new. (by the way, it is correct that there are two regulator types. one is oval with 5 pins, and one is round and appareantly has 6 pins. Mine is the oval 5 pin. For cash reasons i returned the ineffective new regulator and reinstalled the e-bay one. The autozone guy seemed to think that it was therefore a grounding problem (as did a guy driving a 1989 yotahome in Tucson). So i`ve been trying to figure out where this could be. the alternator casing is grounded fine. the connections between the alt and the regulator all show connectivity (ohm setting on my volt meter). the regulator is grounded properly to the frame. I checked all of these grounds by placing one lead on positive, and one lead to the test point, checking the resistance. i can`t imagine what else could be ungrounded, that would cause such an issue. One other thought is that perhaps the battery isolator is causing problems - though i unhooked the 2nd battery, and put the alt and battery 1 on the same post, and yet the problem persisted. i`m quite amazed at this point. probably replacing the alternator with a modern one, combined with the volt reg is the best bet. however i`m already over budget and am hoping to resolve the regulation issue... after all the alt is doing its job just fine. I`m in Quartzsite now... I heard there was a meeting organized by toyotamotorhome.org, but i know i`ve missed it by a few weeks... is anyone still aroundÉ and also, does anyone know an electrical specialist who`d be willing to take a shot at it hereÉ Still trying! (and batterys still frying) in Quartzsite, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Cut/remove the green wire at the regulator it is the field lead if you charge rate drops there is some kind of issue with the regulator. You should have no resistance (0 ohms) at any ground including the alternator case and the regulator base. The yellow wire is for the charge light relay the white wire goes to the battery through a fuse link and should read battery voltage the green wire is the field and the black is ground. Is there any signs of tampering with the wiring? New tape stuff like that is there any possibility that the wrong alternator is installed? Like one with a regulator built in?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 the Ground from the engine to car should be suspect at this point... the motor itself should have a ground. this will vary from age of motor and model. May even be a braided copper wire in cloth jacket on really old motor.. These can corrode and be bad while looking good outside but inside be rotted. I'd replace it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yota_mkii Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hm, thanks Maineah....  good to know what those wires do (i've been wondering). now at least i can check to make sure the white one is carrying voltage (though in retrospect i supose this is obvious). Still the green and yellow confused me. So when you say the green is carrying the field voltage, this is the signal telling the regulator what the alternator field is at? or is it a signal from the reg to the alt?   never covered this in auto shop.  You say that when i cut it (green), if the charging voltage drops then there is a problem with the regulator. ... however isn't that what i'm trying to achieve, a lowered voltage?  the strangest part is that a new regulator didn't fix anything.   <br><br>by the way yes, there is no resistance at any of the points mentioned - regulator base, alternator case, battery negative to multiple points on the frame. etc. <br><br>and no, no tampering with the wires that i can see - and it looks like the original alternator (has factory hookup for the regulator)  <br> i'll try to find the main engine ground as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I'll try to find the main engine ground as well... It never hurts to just add another brand new one that's accessible (and easy to check). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The green field wire is what regulates the voltage to the field. Alternators have a rotating field unlike old generators and the output voltage is directly proportional to the field voltage. The regulator senses battery voltage and controls field voltage accordingly; it gets its signal from the white wire that is also connected directly to the battery. The red wire is from the key switch it is fused through the engine fuse it basically jump starts the system and turns off the regulator with the key to keep it from killing the battery. You have a strange problem and it points to the regulator,is there a generator/ alternator shop any where near by? I could not tell you if the plug would fit a newer alternator so I can't help you decide if the right one is installed. The guy that tested the alternator might know if its internally regulated or not. If it is that is going to cause problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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