Takes forever to start!

[Yostfmx]

Ok, I have a 4 cyl, 18' sunrader. Runs good when warmed up (10min), problem is I have to crank it over for 8 seconds, 4 or 5 times to get it to start, with a jump start. I changed the accelerator pump on the carb and some other rubber bladder thing. I was told it was probably the accelerator pump, helped, down to 8 seconds crank 1 or 2 times or so... not right. Oh and its hardest to start when its cold of course but when its warm its hard to start too, I could turn it off for 3 seconds then try it and carnk for 8 sec. before it starts. When its cold it will hesitate if I give it too much gas but when warm runs strong.

Whats wrong? Vacuum leak? What should I check? Please help me!

[Shoprat]

Howdy..

Check to see if your choke is working. If that is working, check out the fuel pump. Could be allowing the fuel to drain back into the tank. Also check to see if your battery is fully charged. I found out the hard way that a low battery will only crank the engine leaving only minimal voltage capacity for the ignition.

[Yostfmx]

Oh its a 22R

I don't think its the choke cause I hear that its on when it starts, and its still hard to start when warm.

I'll try the fuel pump. Don't really know how to check other then take it apart and see if any things broke.

Yes my battery is pretty dead, but everytime I start it I jump it so it should start.

[WME]

Do you have a mechincal pump mounted up front under the top radiator hose. Or the in the tank electric one.?

[turtle]

take the air cleaner off and work the throttle. Do you see gas squirting, if not you either have a bad diaphragm in the carb, a sticky float, a bad fuel filter (restricting the flow), or a bad fuel pump. I sort of lean away from the pump as it does run after you get it started. Turn the engine over until it starts then shut it off before checking to make sure that the fuel bowl is full and can supply fuel to the accelerator pump

You can rebuild the carb but you are better off replacing it with a downdraft weber that is made for the Toyota engine. Better performance and better fuel economy. The Weber bolts right to the stock manifold and comes with everything you will need. Personally I like the manual choke models but you can get either auto or manual choke models

[Yostfmx]

Mechincal fuel pump

Thanks I'll try today. If its cheap I was going to get a new fuel pump, for sure I'm getting a new fuel filter and just tried to take off the PVC valve, Won't come out! Whats the trick? Oh and cracked the little plastic ring around it trying to pull up and use a screw driver to pry up, hope that doesn't make a differents? Never got it off! Got pissed, did put a hose on it and blow in to it and sucked on it. Couldn't blow any air in to it but could suck air out. Is that the right way its works? Seems like the book says its the other way? But its was still on the truck.

I'm sorry, I'm not good at all with motors and don't know what I'm doing or really know too much on how they work. Very stressed right now about this.

Oh changed the accelerator pump and AAP and looked at the other diaphragm, looked ok, couldn't get off with the carb still on truck.

Wish me luck and hope I don't kill myself.

[WME]

The PCV valve sounds OK. Its designed to vent the crankcase fumes into the intake to burn off the nasties.

An engine will start and run on the fuel thats in the carb for a couple of minutes.

I'm recalling an old memory. IF AAP IS NOT SEATED RIGHT OR TORN IT WILL LEAK GAS INTO THE INTAKE. This floods the engine and makes it hard to start.

[Yostfmx]

Yea I read alot about the AAP with hard starting. Changed it along with the AP, old one did seem to be ok.

Ok, changed some things today

New parts list to date that have been changed:

AP

AAP

Other diaphragm checked

PCV valve check

Fuel filter

Fuel pump

All new fuel lines from the gas tank to all the way to carb

New battery

Changing plugs and plug wires tomorrow.

moosepucky your the man!!! I tried what you said and no gas, none at all, its it supost to come out that copper pipe in the right chamber? (when looking at it from the front of the truck). Both sides are bone dry. Had my Dad drop some gas in it and it started in 1 1/2 cranks. There the problem!

Just found something 10mins ago, I found a pipe that comes off the carb that has nothing atached to it, too small for a gas line I think. I need help, if anyone has a clue what it goes to that would be a big help! Link to the picture is below> and something else in the picture is what looks like someone "fix job" with a melted hose, or is that what the pipe goes to? don't think so. What do those 5 hoses do anyway?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/Yostfmx/DCP_2860.jpg

[WME]

There is "supposed" to be a hose diagram some where in the engine compartment, usually on the underside of the hood.

Your carb should have a sight window in the side of the fuel bowl. Check to see if the fuel level is in the middle of it.

[turtle]

You can download a factory Toyota service manual for the 1985 year trucks from the links on the Yahoo Toyota Motor Home group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-campers/links Unfortunately it is for the later EFI engine so not much good for your current problem.

I can't remember what year you said yours was but this and the 1991 factory manuals are all that is on the group.

I have printed factory manuals for my 1991 and 1981 (as well as the factory 2L diesel truck engine manual). These are worth having and you can find them on eBay used reasonably. If you are not mechanically intuitive they are a great help as they detail repairs step by step with exploded diagrams of the process.

You can check your fuel pump the old fashion way. Disconnect the spark coil, pull off the fuel line, stick it in a milk jug and have someone crank the engine for about a second. Fuel should flow just about instantly and you should have a good stream. If you have fuel flowing then your problem is inside the carb. Either a sticky float valve or a bad accelerator pump. Be careful when you are pumping raw fuel and don't let the hose get away from you and watch out for moving parts such as the fan and belts. Don't wear loose clothing and if you have long hair watch where it is dangling. I got my hair wrapped around a creeper caster last year and ended up wearing it like an ear ring until I cut off a big chunk of it to get loose.

Rather than piddle around with the old carb do yourself a favor and replace it with a downdraft weber. The weber is a 2 barrel progressive carb and light years advanced from the stock Toyota one. You will get higher performance and better fuel mileage

http://www.jtspeed.com/index.php?cPath=645

Once you have the model # of the kit you can google for the best price on it.

[Yostfmx]

I'll try to look for that diagram and look for the window.

And its a 1982 22R 4cyl

I doubt I'll be able to find where that hose goes? I may try to take apart the carb today, have the rebuild kit. That Weber looks cool but its $300, if I can't fix the carb myself I'll probably buy one. So they're all ready to go when you get them, just bolt on and start? or do you half to set the float to your year?

[turtle]

That Weber looks cool but its $300, if I can't fix the carb myself I'll probably buy one. So they're all ready to go when you get them, just bolt on and start? or do you half to set the float to your year?

The kit is a bolt on and is complete with linkage and everything you need. You will have to adjust the carb once it is on but it should start with the factory settings. They do cost a lot but there is not that much difference in price between a weber and a replacement stock Toyota carb.

Check your butterfly shaft for looseness before you spend the time to rebuild. This is the normal fatal wear location. Once the shaft starts to suck air you can't get the carb to adjust any more and it is basically a door stop.

Have you rebuilt a carburetor before? Get yourself a gallon can of dip and dunk cleaner and drop the disassembled parts in there for a few hours to clean the varnish off. The main thing is to get everything squeaky clean before you start to reassemble it with the new parts.

[Yostfmx]

Check your butterfly shaft for looseness before you spend the time to rebuild. This is the normal fatal wear location. Once the shaft starts to suck air you can't get the carb to adjust any more and it is basically a door stop.

Which one? When standing at the front of the truck the one on the right moves free and smooth no slack or play, the one on the left (thats stays open) has a little play slide on the rode. Never really rebuild a carb but I did take the carb off my DRZ 400 (4 stroke dirt bike) and took it apart and changed the needle and jet, thats it. I was going to soak parts in acetone. I just hope I don't take it apart a springs a what not shoot out. Oh do you use sealant on the gaskets or dry?

I took off the AAP again today cause I put the spring on the wrong side of the bladder. Didn't chang anything. But did start it cold this morning with a little cap full of gas poured into carb, half a crank and it started. Checked the little float bowl window and was either full or had nothing in it, so I took off the window and it was full. So... now what? What would you say is wrong? I know it can't get enough gas on starts.

I want to try to get that missing hose hooked up before I take the carb apart. Couldn't that be the problem? Or is it no big deal? I found the hose diagram, Heres a picture of it> I can't make heads or tails of it. Don't know what anything is around the motor?

Missing hose picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/Yostfmx/DCP_2860.jpg

Hose diagram picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/Yostfmx/DCP_2866.jpg

If someone could see where that hose goes to on theres I would much appreciate it, would be a life saver!

Haha I could keep it the way it is and no one can steal it! cause they cant start it.

[Gulfstream Greg]

From your pic the missing hose doesn't look like its missing from the carb. Pull off your air cleaner and try to move some hoses out of the way and take some detailed photos for the experts to ponder over. What ever it is plug it off some how with a short piece of hose and a small bollt in it to see if that makes a difference. There are some ports that do just have a cap on them, could be your case. A missing cap will cause a vacume leak.

I broke off the barbed connection on one of my heat vacuum sensor switches in a 82 pickup I had. Could only get it from toyota - BLAH. It was not cheap so take care and work off any hoses from their connections with patience.

[Yostfmx]

Thanks I'll take some more pictures. I tried to hook it up to somthing close by that was capped. Didn't do anything. I'll try and cap it. Yea I did find two other things that where capped. I have a Chilton book 70-89 but the lowest they go on the vacuum diagram is 1984. Not the same... What I can tell is it comes out at the bottom of the 4 line vacuum lines (4 lines made in a ribbon), the one closest to the front of the truck. The other sides of the 4 lines go to 2 vacuum sensors (I think thats what they are)

Oh and its a California truck (smogg)

Oh you meant the butterfly thats you can see down in the carb? That I don't know.

Man this thing is stressin me out.

[WME]

The fuel window thingie has a metal cover holding it on. The cover has a funny shaped hourglass on its side cutout. The fuel level should be in the middle.

If you have fuel in the carb then it should start OK. Unless something is wrong with the accelerator pump.

You should pump the gas petal to the floor ONE time before starting. This will squirt some fuel into the intake (same as pouring it in) and it sets the choke.

[Gulfstream Greg]

I have always found that a vacuum gauge is a handy diagnostic tool. A trip to the auto parts store will get you one of those, it should then be connected to a vacuum port that is directly connected to the intake manifold. Watching it and seeing the values can tell you many things about the engine.

[Yostfmx]

Fuel was so full I coulden't tell till I took off. It was all the way to the top of the window with fuel but still seems like its not getting the gas where it need to be to start. I've tried all differnet ways of pumping the gas pedal seems to do nothing. Best way to start it is pump the gas pedal a very little bit, maybe an 1/8'' - 1/4'', thats when it will catch and its starts to start then stops 1 or 2 time then it will start. It hesitates if I push the gas down to fast for the 10 mins till its warm. If I try to give to much gas pedel it won't start at all, if I pump it before does nothing I can tell, think its getting air and not the enough gas for some reason, but pour gas in carb, fire very quit. Its got me?

moosepucky I think I know how what you ment now about taking the air cleaner off and work the throttle and seeing gas squirting, I have to look way down at the butterfly down in there to see gas. I'll try tomorrow.

Thanks for everyones help! coulden't have done most of this with out you guys...

Tomorrow another day...

[futar]

Arghhhhh, I almost forgot about that problem. My first TMH which was a 1983 with carb had that problem. It appears that the carb fuel drains back so you have to crank like oooo to get fuel back in the carb. I used to automatically spray starter fluid in the intake before even trying to start the MH.

Also check the accelerator cable. It tends to come loose so that you loose full range of throttle and the throttle plate won't seat.

I like Moosepucky's suggestion of installing a Weber carb.

[Yostfmx]

So you never fixed it?

I think I'm ready to take carb apart today.

[WME]

When your finished with this minor distraction, how about some photo updates on the rest of the rig??

[Yostfmx]

Yea I'll post the roof raising pictures soon.

Didn't take the carb apart yet, but I did put a 12V 1-4 PSI add on fuel pump with a switch in cab to turn on and off. This is what my brother did to his boat and he said thats what they do to the old dunebuggies. He said to flip it on and pump the gas pedal 5 time and it should pump a bunch of gas in carb, start it, then flip of the 12v pump. Did it and makes no differents? I looked in the carb with pump on and someone pumping the gas pedal, nothing? I took off the gas line that goes right in to the carb with the 12v pump on and there was gas pumping out of the line. So gas is going in to the carb but just not making it to the butterfly pipe thingy. Think I'm going to have to take the carb apart now...

[futar]

Okay, now I think I remember. It was 18 years ago and I'm now suffering from "old timers disease" It was the throttle plate not seating. I had to oil the heck out of the cable line and readjust it. I think that I had to make a new clamp to hold it in place. After that, it started okay. I think somehow the choke was effected, but it was so long ago.

I bought my rig when I lived near Boston and every thing rusts up there. Eventually the poor little motor home just dissolved.

[johnnyonthespot]

u ever get this thing running? my 1983 dolphin is a little bit hard to start... i am worried that i may be looking at carb issues after reading this... 400 bucks for a new one is alot of cheddar since i spent "the ranch" buying the Dolphin...

i dont have the patience for mechanical problems such as carb rebuilds...

when i was 18 we put a 350 small block in a chevy s10 and after that i was ruined on engine work... it was such a nightmare ...i still cant stand working under the hood.

i have been looking through your profile and the restoration... very cool...

what are your overall plans for it? i noticed the big couch... pretty neat but is it heavy?

looks like you have totally gutted all of the old camper parts... are you putting anything back in?

where are you at with it now???

I have water damage in my dolphin... above the couch/bed in mine there is a delaminated mess of a hole... wood needs replaced... roof needs sealed... vent needs replaced...

also where the awning is attached... it is pulling the siding away from the roof... creating a gap that water just flows in and does god knows what.... i need to really get on some repairs... in the meantime....

duct tape.

[picklebill]

take the air cleaner off and work the throttle. Do you see gas squirting, if not you either have a bad diaphragm in the carb, a sticky float, a bad fuel filter (restricting the flow), or a bad fuel pump. I sort of lean away from the pump as it does run after you get it started. Turn the engine over until it starts then shut it off before checking to make sure that the fuel bowl is full and can supply fuel to the accelerator pump

You can rebuild the carb but you are better off replacing it with a downdraft weber that is made for the Toyota engine. Better performance and better fuel economy. The Weber bolts right to the stock manifold and comes with everything you will need. Personally I like the manual choke models but you can get either auto or manual choke models

Mike - the Weber sounds good. Do you know if it is smog legal in California? I have an'82 Rader which runs fine now, but I would consider changing the carb if it is smoggable

Bill

[turtle]

Mike - the Weber sounds good. Do you know if it is smog legal in California? I have an'82 Rader which runs fine now, but I would consider changing the carb if it is smoggable

Bill

One of the largest suppliers is in Torrance Ca. http://www.redlineweber.com/ They have a toll free # so give them a call. 1-800-733-2277.

You will want either a 34/34 or 38 dges kit for a motor home. The 32/36 is not going to give you enough fuel from the smaller primary and you will be opening up the secondary way too often so your mileage will suffer.

If you are not having problems with your current carb I can't see a need to swap out carbs unless you are going to do some additional performance work such as headers, free flow exhaust, etc.

[DanAatTheCape]

if you think it is a fuel starvation issue at first roation, you could try putting some gas in a very small container - pour a tablesspoon or 2 into the carb and then try - if it fires right away you can confirm part of your theory.

[Yostfmx]

if you think it is a fuel starvation issue at first roation, you could try putting some gas in a very small container - pour a tablesspoon or 2 into the carb and then try - if it fires right away you can confirm part of your theory.

Yea, that is it. It fires evertime with a little gas in carb, just need to take the carb apart and clean/fix it, just don't want to...

[motoyhomme]

I've been keeping up with this thread with a smile on my face . When you have tried starting as many cars and trucks as I have over my life (I have Medicare) you'll find everything takes longer to start as it matures.

You have an older Toyota truck engine with a carb. Eight seconds is not a long time to start the engine. Remember there is a radical difference in the starting procedures for carb engines and fuel injection engines. With fuel injection, you keep your foot off of the gas pedal until the engine starts. With a carb, you usually press the pedal down to set the choke and hold the pedal down while starting the engine. As the engine and carb adds on the mileage, you pump the gas pedal several times before turning the ignition, then turn the ignition to start while still pumping the gas pedal. I do this every time I start my Sunrader with a cold engine. It may be a nusance, but not a serious money costing problem. The previous owner thought he had a leaking carb because he could smell raw fuel sometimes, so he had the Toyota dealer install a new carb...guess what...he still had the raw fuel smell and almost $500 down the drain (I fixed the problem with a $3 gasket at the tank). I have a new carb and it still takes a while to start.

Allen

[Yostfmx]

I don't know if I buy all of that, Theres something more then its just old.

[motoyhomme]

If the fuel bowl is full of gas and the accelerator pump has been replaced, then the pickup for the injector jets is blocked or the injector tubes are blocked. Pouring small amts of of fuel directly into the mouth of the carb is the same idea as priming a cold engine with the injector jets. So....better start cleaning. Been there many times and it ain't fun, just remember where everything goes, especially the linkage, and keep everthing ultra clean.

Allen

[Yostfmx]

Yea I know, thats why I haven't touched it yet haha.

[mycomitan]

Before you do anything you should run some acetone in the gas 3oz per 10Gals of gas. I use it on all my vehicles and it keeps jets, injectors clean, Some people will say it atomizes the gas for better gas mileage I and many others of us believe it just cleans therefore runs better gets better gas mileage.

[Yostfmx]

Never heard of putting acetone in your gas, but that seams like it would work, very cool, I'll have to research that... thanks man!

[shandamac]

Never heard of putting acetone in your gas, but that seams like it would work, very cool, I'll have to research that... thanks man!

Yost,

I've read every word of this thread and cut and pasted over half to add to my ever growing study/research file. The info gurus on this forum are amazing, and I'm learning how to fix, clean, replace, and maintain every square inch my little 81 toy...even under the hood. (My husband says I'm obsessed.)

Sadie's got the same starting issues as your Rader..... I've started saving up for one of Diesel Mike's webber carbs, but was interested if you'd tried the acetone.

Shanda