Sagging Rear End

[markwilliam1]

And I'm not being sexist! So after scraping my rear end of Grannie many times I needed a way to raise her some. Priced air bags but very expensive and who to install them? Read another post here about new leaf springs and was wondering if that would work. So we have an old time spring shop here in Akron. Fixes large trucks also. Spoke with the manager he was very familiar with Toyota MH's. Stated air bags (new ones) are a waste now with plastic fittings and lower quality. Not durable now. They refuse to use them. So this is what they did. Took off the old helper springs and threw them away. Re-arched the exsisting springs and added 2 heavy leaf springs to each side. Replaced all the rotted bushings and added 4 new large clamps. Grannie was in the shop for 5 hrs. When I saw her I couldn't believe it. The rear was raised 3 to 4 inches. Wow!! Rides so much better. The Bilstein shocks didn't raise the rear @ all but the new springs sure did. The verdict: $390 out the door. I can even get to the spare now with No trouble! Highly recommended if you can find a spring shop and people who know what they're doing! All smiles in Ohio now!

[Totem]

fascinating... mind sharing the shop name? i pass through Ohio every so often. 5 hours i can spend in a bar no problem ...

wouldn't mind getting same thing done at that price. Got a shop phone # or name? I'd like to give them my business.

Disagree with the airbag statement though, and that's because I did my own personally and replaced my 3Ts bags with more 3Ts bags and i literally couldn't tell the difference other than a firestone logo on the bag part. Looked identical.

My next question you seem to have answered also and that is if the bilsteins could handle the additional raising of the inches added by the re-arch and the extra leafs without needing new shocks.

 

 

[markwilliam1]

Sure Totem! It's Stover Spring co. N. Main st Akron Ohio. I'll get more info to you later. Just repeated what the expert said about new air bags as I have none on my rig and they don't install or mess with them. I think this is how my rig use to set when new. PO put on helper springs (useless) If you already have air bags why do you need new springs? 

 

 

 

[Totem]

well to quote Derek, Air Bags are not substitutes for worn out springs...

I believe he is quite correct in this.

Air bags intentions are for leveling purposes, say you have a lot of gear on one side of your rv, and its cattywompus .. you could let some air out on that side and air up the other side. In my case i air them up to 100 psi to raise it up a bit but they are not springs and they jar a bit and dont provide the bounce; in effect airbags are also a form of helper spring when used in that way; and helper springs as you saw are a rough ride.

[markwilliam1]

Ok Totem Stuver Auto Spring Company 500 North Main Street Akron Ohio 44310 330-535-2111. Thanks for your response now I understand air bags. Not a bad price for all that work huh?? But there's a catch. This is an old school shop and unfortunately it's first come first serve so coming from out or state you could be there a long time. I got there this morning a 7 am ( they open @ 8) and there were 3 people already there. 2 Semis and a truck. When the shop opened all their bays were full inside awaiting repairs. So, they Finally got to my rig around 10. Although my Grannie only has 36K miles everything back there was shot and the weight of the rig over all these years had flattened the springs. They even replaced 12 bushings and 2 center Bolts all for $370 plus tax! I've read of others who had this done and spending well over a $1000. I'm lucky to have a shop like this close to home. BTW the manager stated that helper springs on rigs like these are basically worthless due to the weight. So he's not an air bag or helper springs fan @ all! Says you need real full springs to handle the weight of these rigs. I think most of my weight comes from all the beer I have loaded in the fridge:-):-)! If ya come to Akron let me know, I'll buy the first round my friend!

[markwilliam1]

BTW , just looking @ the invoice and they charged me only $120 in labor for all that work and time! Did I just go back to the 70's??

[Derek up North]

The job of a shock is to absorb shocks, not carry the load. That's the job of the springs, be they leaf, coil, air or rubber. :).

And before someone comes back with 'air shocks', yes I know what they are.

[DanAatTheCape]

wonder what technique they used to re-arc the springs.  I gather there are multiple ways and several will not "last' very long.  Please post back after putting some miles on yours.

 

I recently bought new springs and had a shop take one leaf out of the old springs and add it to the new ones.   Of course the bushings were shot so the were replaced. I still run about 50' in my airbags too.   Just put 5k miles on them, so far so good.

[markwilliam1]

They use this huge old 100 lb press. After they re- arced the springs I had them add 2 more heavy duty springs to each side also. The difference was amazing as I can now easily crawl under Grannie and get to the spare. Before I had to jack up the rear. Raised her around 4 inches. Looking forward to see if this helps with sway from wind also. It sure improveed the ride! The mechanic said this repair should give Grannie another 31years of adventures!! Best bang for the buck I've spent , even better than the 4 new Bilstein shocks. Finding a shop like this could prove to be difficult though. Is all Old School!

[zero]

Hopefully the work on the springs lasts.  I don't know about the 31 year projection.  Springs are supposed to be re-arched and then heat-treated again.  What you had done is often called "cold arching" and is inferior to doing the job properly.   That being said, adding extra leaves on each side  has to help and long as they too have the right arch and are tempered to hold that arch.  Simply putting a leaf in a press and bending it does not restore its integrity.  It seems that specialty shops that do this kind of work correctly are disappearing.   The proper equipment is too expensive and new parts are often just as cheap.

I think what the guy in the shop said about air-bag suspensions systems is pure BS.  I've got Air-Lift brand with Goodyear bellows.  Lifetime guarantee on the bags unless Goodyear stops making them. /They use the same brass fittings and plastic hoses like big-rigs on the highways use.  Just about every big-rig tractor-trailer on the road has air-suspension too.

What the heck is a "100 lb press?"    Mine is 50 ton, so I guess it is a 100,000 lbs. press and it is not very big.

[markwilliam1]

I believe your right it was a hundred ton press and it was Large! They also heat treated the springs again in their forge. Wasn't cold  arching. Why would you assume that? They worked on my rig for 5 hrs. This Is a Specialty shop built in the 40's. The only one in this area. All they do is springs.  Referring to air bags in my case I needed to raise my rig by several inches permanently. Not something air bags can do. And  yes I do value the opinion of an Expert in this area and his opinion about air bags and why they don't use them.  Not BS to me!

[zero]

1 hour ago, markwilliam1 said:

I believe your right it was a hundred ton press and it was Large! They also heat treated the springs again in their forge. Wasn't cold  arching. Why would you assume that? And  yes I do value the opinion of an Expert in this area and his opinion about air bags and why they don't use them.  Not BS to me!

I assumed the springs were not retempered because you did not mention it in your original description.  40-50 years ago, spring shops with the equipment to do the job correctly were common. Not anymore.  I've come across many that only do a cold re-arch.  You are lucky to have a place in your area that can do it correctly.  Same goes for the places that used to do build-up welding (spray welding).  With China dumping so many cheap parts into the USA. many such shops have stopped doing these kind of services.

I was a HD mechanic for 40 years so I guess I am as qualified as most people in theses shops.  When someone makes a blanket statement like . .  "he was very familiar with Toyota MH's. Stated air bags (new ones) are a waste now with plastic fittings and lower quality. Not durable now" . . . yes, my "BS" detector goes off.    Is he claiming that both the Firestone and Goodyear systems are all crap?  Did he mention that just about every heavy truck on the road has them?  Did he tell you that Goodyear bags carry a lifetime warranty?  I have new ones (two years old) and mine have no plastic fittings.  So yes, what he told you is BS.

I can understand someone claiming they don't like the stiff ride that air-suspension can  give. I also can understand someone not considering them a perfect replacement for a worn suspension.   But what you say this guy told you?  Come on !    One thing good about air-bag suspension is that it eliminates a weak spot in the Toyota suspension.  Air-bags push directly against the frame.  They are not dependent on spring shackles and bushings taking all the load.  Another plus is they are adjustable.  If an RV sits a little crooked, from side to side due to an uneven load - it is easy to level out with air-bags.

I see it as a personal choice with pros and cons with all these things.  Seems making such a choice should be done on accurate info though.

[markwilliam1]

How can you be that old and look that young JD? I hate guys like you Man:-):-)! Anyway I'm not knowledgeable about airbags ( I know you are) but am wondering why that specialty shop doesn't mess with airbags. I appreciate you educating me Sir. Anyway I did price Firestone Bags and their costs not counting installation was very expensive. Plus I couldn't find a shop that would install them. That's why I asked this shop about them. For what I needed air bags wouldn't work. But now your making me want some! I needed a new rear suspension so I'm glad I went the spring/shock route. Yeah, this shop started when Akron was booming as the Rubber Capitol of the World so they got everything there you could imagine. I bet a guy like you would love that place. Dirty as hell, old big behind equipment. Saw the biggest anvil I ever saw there beat to shit next to their forge but you can't beat their prices don't ya think??

[zero]

In my opinion, air-bag suspension kind of degrades the ride, but they work great for supporting heavy loads.  I put them in my Dodge diesel 3/4 ton truck because it sagged when I put a heavy camper on the back.  The Air-Lift kit I put in worked great when the truck was loaded.   When empty?  With the 40 lbs. of air in them, the truck was not drivable on a road in the woods I often used.  It bounced so bad on the washboards on that road, we just gave up and went back.   Note - I could of just let the air out of them, but with many of these air-bags - you are not supposed to. Note there ARE versions with an internal rubber stop that do allow use when at zero pressure. Most kits I've seen require the removal of the original factory spring-stops.  So once installed there is nothing to limit spring travel except the bags.  I assume that is why they cannot be run empty unless they have built-in internal stops.

In the case of a Toyota motorhome at 20-21 feet long? It is always overloaded and I suspect most are over the max safe rating that Toyota ever designed the trucks for.  So in that case, air-bags do what the original suspension parts cannot.  The trade-off is a stiff ride.  No matter how much you beef up the springs, the shackles and pins are still weak-links.  The air-springs eliminate that.

[markwilliam1]

Thanks Man!!

[zero]

16 minutes ago, markwilliam1 said:

 but you can't beat their prices don't ya think??

I think you got a good deal. I was searching for a place to do some spray-welding  for me a few months ago. Often the same shops that did hot spring work also did the spray welding. In my area, all the places are either gone - or doing something else to make money. Kind of like trying to find a TV repair shop.

[zero]

21 minutes ago, markwilliam1 said:

How can you be that old and look that young JD? 

I might look young, but cannot say I feel that way. I have arthritis something awful.  Left knee joint and both shoulder joints completely worn out. Right foot and ankle full of steel. Neck is fused in two places.  I have been scheduled for surgery several times and keep chickening out.  So I'm not sure, but I might trade looking young for feeling younger. 

[WME]

1 hour ago, jdemaris said:

I think you got a good deal. I was searching for a place to do some spray-welding  for me a few months ago. Often the same shops that did hot spring work also did the spray welding. In my area, all the places are either gone - or doing something else to make money. Kind of like trying to find a TV repair shop.

Add crankshaft welding to that list.

Edited October 9, 2016 by WME

[zero]

We used to get cranks welded for big diesel engines. Nobody in my area does it anymore.  Bulldozer/crawler and excavator undercarriage parts used to get spray welded and then machined.  Again, I don't know anyone in my area that does it anymore.  One place I went to that used to do it still has the equipment but won't use it.  The shop owner told me that they cannot do it as cheap as new parts are from Asia.  He also said that a lot of new undercarriages now have certain alloys that cannot be spray welded.

[DanAatTheCape]

my airbags (3t's) specify 20-100psi.  Do not run empty.  Before my spring job, I kept them at 100, now I can run 20-70 whatever.  I like the rear end high when I am wondering around forest service roads - that departure angle is a limiting item.

[Derek up North]

The lift is a function of the air spring diameter and the air pressure in them. The 3ts are small and I think will provide 1500lb of lift at 100psig. The big, double-convoluted air springs will provide 5000lb of lift at maximum psig.

I know some air springs are marked @ 10psig minimum and I think I might have even seen 5psig. But go with whatever your supplier says.

If you've got springs that give more than standard rear lift, check the installed height of the air springs. Like shocks, air springs have a 'working range'. Too high and you might damage them unless you use available spacers.

[zero]

The Air-Lift Ultimate is the only one I know of that says can be run at zero pressure or near zero.  They don't have the kit for Toyota motorhomes though. Just the Load Lifter 5000 kit with Goodyear bags. That is the kit I have.  No plastic fittings.   I've never seen the Firestone kit close up - at least not for a Toyota. I had a Firestone kit in my Chevy Blazer motorhome and not plastic fitting in that either.

[linda s]

They do offer the Ultimate for the regular Toyota trucks though. Maybe that little jounce bumper can't handle non stop jouncing. Looks like a tiny Timbren and for some reason I love the way that sounds. Both of my Sunraders have the original Firestone air bags. The Toyota ones are perfect with no leaking at all and the Nissan I think the problem is in the lines or the valves because it leaks very slowly. They certainly made some good products back then. I do know a couple of people who  switched to Timbrens when their air bags gave out and they are super happy with them. No checking air, very solid ride and less sway on turns

Linda S

[zero]

My Firestones on my Chevy always had a slow leak.  No big deal and maybe it was just a line.  Did it since new and took weeks to get low.  On the other hand, the Air-Lifts in my Minicruiser have not yet leaked off at all.  3-4 years old now.