Starting Issue

[Kale]

Yesterday I went to dump the tanks on my rig and stopped at a station that allows free dumping with a purchase of >$20. So I turned off the Toy and filled her up. When I went to start it I just heard a "click." Tried a few more times and still just "click." Since I had my multimeter with me I checked the battery voltage, which was 12.6, shouldn't be a problem there.

As I've mentioned before, I don't have a lot of engine knowledge, so I googled a bit on my phone. The first site said that it was likely to be a bad connection, starter solenoid, or starter itself. The battery connections are clean, but the wiring is old. It was late at this point and I was tired, so I didn't really want to go messing with things that I didn't know much about. The gas station had an attached mechanic shop, but it was closed, they said I could stay there the night if I pushed it out of the way. Which I did with the help of a good samaritan.

When I got up this morning I checked the voltage at the starter (or where the battery connects to it, I guess that would be the solenoid), which looked good. I went ahead and tried starting it again, and it fired right up, so I dumped the tanks and drove home.

So given the information above, what should I do next? I assume that it's most likely a connection issue. Should I replace the battery cable? Take it to a mechanic? Do nothing and hope it doesn't happen again while in the middle of nowhere?

Thanks!

[Totem]

I have experience the exact same phenomenon in my rig that's identical year to yours.

It was a total mystery to us until i found the cause and also in doing so i found the fix.

Basically I have had same thing occur maybe 5 times exactly like you and when it does its usually hot as b@lls outside, and the rigs pretty warm under the hood. When it happens I would always pop the hood and let it cool off. What ever it was would cool off and after 15 mins or so the rig would start. Needless to say it doesnt happen a lot so when it did i just did the hood trick, and went inside the gas station or place of pause and buy the kids something etc or have a beer. This went on until last year when I was stopped in a VERY VERY undesirable area and the temp was 97 with 100% humidity and i also could not get the generator to run my older AC unit.. needless to say my McGuyver gene kicked in and after 25 minutes of trying the open the hood trick i decided I had better find the cause before the "hood" opened me...

What i did was have my wife constantly try to turn the key and we would get the alarm buzzer every time with the red lights but the battery was showing 12.6 on my dash mounted voltmeters (that i have a thread on in here ) so I too like you was wondering what the issue was. I knew the starter was NOT getting juice because i cattle prodded it with my regular voltmeter so i ruled out the starter..I then began to flick each bundle of wires or wired connections as wife would try a turn of keys. Finally after poking and saying "try now" 23 times I found my perpetrator... there was a wire harness deep in the motor and low just to the left of the block and looking down it was just to the right of the EFI unit maybe jde will know what it is; i can get a picture of it tonight and add it to this thread. Wife and i found whatever it was the short was there and flicking instantly turned over the engine. I could also see that it was changing shape as the heat came down so thats why letting motor cool by opening the hood (or sleeping overnight in your case) fixes it; the short comes back out into circuit, but if the heat is too high it disconnects the juice to the starter.

[Kale]

Interesting, this actually reminded me of something else I saw when I was fiddling with it this morning. There were a couple wires attached to the frame just dangling down into the engine area, I pulled them up and out of the way so I could reach the starter. Didn't think much of it other than a mental note to remove them, but they conceivably could have been touching something they shouldn't have been and shorting.

If it happens again I'll look for what you described, thanks!

[zero]

If it happens again - just turn your headlights on.  Then try to start. If it "clicks" and the lights stay bright - you know the battery is fine and the solenoid contacts are likely your problem (or bad starter brushes).

[Maineah]

Replace the solenoid contacts in the starter very common problem and a cheap fix.

[fred heath]

Make sure those wires hanging down weren't chassis ground wires. A bad ground will also cause the condition your describing.

Clean all the ground terminals, especially those from the block to the frame.

[Totem]

Agree with Fred, bad grounds will bring you down. check those also. I will get apicture of the wire blob that if i nudge it it starts the truck to see who can guess what it is.

[Kale]

Issue happened again just a bit ago (at the same place, no less). I popped the hood pushed on the connections to the solenoid and waited a bit, then it started again. Maybe it is the same heat issue that Totem described, it has been warm here lately (around 104F today).

 

On 7/21/2016 at 10:57 AM, jdemaris said:

If it happens again - just turn your headlights on.  Then try to start. If it "clicks" and the lights stay bright - you know the battery is fine and the solenoid contacts are likely your problem (or bad starter brushes).

I did this, they dimmed a little. Not sure it matters, but it only "clicks" once, not repeatedly as I've experienced on other vehicles when the battery is low. I checked the battery again and it was reading just over 12.6V with the ignition off.

 

On 7/21/2016 at 5:48 PM, Maineah said:

Replace the solenoid contacts in the starter very common problem and a cheap fix.

Do you mean re-terminate the ends on the wire from the battery or something else? I'm a bit dense when it comes to this sort of thing.

 

On 7/22/2016 at 11:34 AM, fred heath said:

Make sure those wires hanging down weren't chassis ground wires. A bad ground will also cause the condition your describing.

Clean all the ground terminals, especially those from the block to the frame.

I'm fairly certain those wires were from an old alarm system I took out a while back.

[WME]

Starter contacts are inside the starter.http://www.ebay.com/itm/STARTER-REPAIR-KIT-TOYOTA-SUPRA-CRESSIDA-4RUNNER-TRUCK-20R-22R-22RE-HONDA-ACURA-/272237275114?hash=item3f629b27ea:g:CMIAAOSw3v5XI35w&vxp=mtr

[Derek up North]

 

[zero]

7 hours ago, Kale said:

they dimmed a little. Not sure it matters, but it only "clicks" once, not repeatedly as I've experienced on other vehicles when the battery is low.

Starter motor needs 9 volts to spin properly - not 12 volts.  At 9 volts - headlights dim a little, and anything lower - near go out.  Thus the test.  If the headlights stay fairly bright when you hear the "click" - then you know the starter is not drawing power and it is NOT a battery issue.

That "click" is always there.  You just can't hear it when the starter motor spins and does its job.  If the "click" is at the starter.  Two metal contacts that hit each other and turn power on to the starter (and also put the starter drive in mesh).  Either they are no longer making electrical contact, or the the starter has worn out brushes.

The only way to know 100% for sure is to test voltage at the starter-post when it "clicks." If anything over 9 volts - something inside the starter is the problem. I find the headlight test much easier.

I've changed a lot of starter contacts in many makes of starters.  Not much anymore.  In my older age, where I've come to hate fixing dead vehicles - especially out on the road, I have adopted this mentality. If a starter gives me trouble - I buy a brand new one, and NOT  a rebuilt.  This way I don't have to trade in the old one.  I then install the new one, and rebuild the old one myself when I get in the mood and then have a spare. Brand new starter for your rig is $65. NEW, not rebuilt.

If this was an old Chevy - you could buy an entire new solenoid with new contacts for $15 change it in 15 minutes. Not so with a Denso starter in a Toyota.  You CAN pop the lid off the starter and file the contacts to get more life out of them.

 

[zero]

Just to make something clear.  Nothing wrong with sticking in new contacts or cleaning up the old ones.  Had to do it many time in my Subarus with Hitachi starters. Not yet with my 88 Toyota. My point about my personal choice for buying new is this.   By the time contacts in a starter get so worn they fail to work - you can assume the rest of the starter has a lot of wear.  So you can stick in new contacts, or clean up the old ones - it might work for years to come - or it might fail two months later from worn out brushes, melted field wires, bad drive, etc.  I used to nickel and dime all my starter and alternator repairs (I used to rebuild them professional when it was still profitable for a small shop).

So just my personal choice.  Since the Chinese have come up with dirt-cheap brand new starters and alternators - I choose to replace with brand new.  Two of my John Deere tractors have Chinese starters.  So does my 1978 Toyota Chinook.  So does my Ford F250 diesel truck.  I just put a new Chinese alternator on my Dodge van yesterday;  My old Chevy diesel plow truck also has a Chinese starter.  So far - all have worked flawlessly.  

NOT trying to confuse the issue.  Just giving you something to think about when trying to decide to renew your contacts, or buy a local "rebuilt", or buy brand new.

[Maineah]

The starters are all most indestructible they are all ball bearing, one of my Toyota's had enough miles on it to have had the contacts replace 3 times and I never even looked inside the starter just replaced the contacts. It is the weak point in those starters. 

[zero]

Good starters  from Denso, yes.  Last forever?  No. Much depends on how a starter has been used and where.  One person's experience does not always match another. One might suffer from many long, low voltage cranking cycles that do damage - and another never get treated that way. One might be constantly be sprayed with salt, and another never.

I worked on a 1987 Toyota last year that only turned over when tapped on with a hammer and it had new contacts. In that, the brushes and holders were the problem.

[Kale]

Sincere thanks for all the advice and explanations! Since I have very limited time I'm going to replace the entire starter, as it seems to be the simplest, if more costly, option.

[Maineah]

10 hours ago, jdemaris said:

Good starters  from Denso, yes.  Last forever?  No. Much depends on how a starter has been used and where.  One person's experience does not always match another. One might suffer from many long, low voltage cranking cycles that do damage - and another never get treated that way. One might be constantly be sprayed with salt, and another never.

I worked on a 1987 Toyota last year that only turned over when tapped on with a hammer and it had new contacts. In that, the brushes and holders were the problem.

That is the beauty of the starters they are low current they turn fast with lots of gear re-deduction torque nothing lasts forever but they were probable one of the best starters ever made.. It is not new tech Chrysler did the same thing years ago with a lot cheaper parts.

[Totem]

Mine just did it in West Virginia again while stopped for gas in 98 degree heat. Popped hood and looked to the wires i mentioned and followed them... The wires in question went into the motor, some kind of heat sensor and a thin one to the starter... Pulling their harnesses open revealed corrosion, cleaned them and it fire right up... For the record when mine does this my voltage is 12.9 volts with the key turned all the way and lights turned on, the starter had no voltage going to it... Not the starter.

[Kale]

Well I replaced the starter, now it doesn't start at all. I've almost certainly messed something up, but not sure what. Time to triple check my work.

[Kale]

I setup my multimeter so I could see it from inside the cabe and connected it to the cable from the ignition. When I turn the key to start it reads under 12V, that's too low, right?

[fred heath]

Just for fun. If you have a set of jumper cables laying around, connect 1 black clamp to the starter body (not near any power connections) and the other black clamp to the (-) post on the battery. Now try to start it and see what happens.

[Kale]

17 minutes ago, fred heath said:

Just for fun. If you have a set of jumper cables laying around, connect 1 black clamp to the starter body (not near any power connections) and the other black clamp to the (-) post on the battery. Now try to start it and see what happens.

No difference

[fred heath]

Guess that rules out grounds.

[Kale]

Took off the new one, put the old one back on. I was able to start it up twice.

What are the chances I got a bad starter? I bought this one off Amazon, see any reason it wouldn't be right for this vehicle?

[cdt5058]

@Kale - Take the one you got from Amazon to an Advanced Auto Parts. They have free starter testing.

Edited July 29, 2016 by cdt5058

[Kale]

8 minutes ago, cdt5058 said:

Take the one you got from Amazon to an Advanced Auto Parts. They have free starter testing.

Thanks, I already returned it.

Haven't had any issues since putting the old one back in, so I'm going to wait and see how it goes for a while.

[zero]

Getting defective starters like that (new) is rare.  I'd still "bench test" before installing with a set of jumper cables. But who knows how many different Chinese suppliers there are out there competing with each other.  My Ford diesel F250 has near the same NippoDenso offset gear-reduction starter as the Toyota 22RE uses.  Over the years (280,000 miles) I put two new sets of OEM Denso solenoid contacts in it and one starter drive.  It is NOT an easy starter to get to or remove.  On a trip this spring it acted up again and I had to crawl under it and tap with a hammer while my wife turned the key to make it start. I finally said "good bye" to my OEM Denso starter and got a brand new Chinese close for around $100. It has worked flawlessly so far.  My OEM Denso still sits on my bench and someday I'll yank it apart and check it over.

[Totem]

" Getting defective starters like that (new) is rare. "

well, if a starter is anything like an alternator... (and it somewhat is) I am not convinced of this claim.

I went through 5 alternators for my Toyota in 1 year and the last 2 i had them bench test right out of the box fail at autozone off the shelf. Alas I was trapped in the "warranty"  where the only relief was to try another one.  Perhaps that was due to them re-using voltage regulators though; either way I'm a non believer that parts are rarely bad.

[zero]

7 minutes ago, Totem said:

" Getting defective starters like that (new) is rare. "

well, if a starter is anything like an alternator... (and it somewhat is) I am not convinced of this claim.

I went through 5 alternators for my Toyota in 1 year and the last 2 i had them bench test right out of the box fail at autozone off the shelf. Alas I was trapped in the "warranty"  where the only relief was to try another one.  Perhaps that was due to them re-using voltage regulators though; either way I'm a non believer that parts are rarely bad.

Oh come on!  The context of my statement was brand new starters - not "rebuilts."  Are you trying to tell me you had that many bad NEW alternators or were they rebuilds?  You mentioned "reusing" regulators so I assume they were not new  I have had exactly the same 100% success rate with brand new alternators from China.  In fact, I just put one on my Dodge van.  It was driving me nuts with a on-again, off-again squeal.  Twice I removed the serpentine belt and everything felt fine. I finally just bought a brand new Chinese alternator and now it is fixed.  .$100 for a brand new, 160 amp alternator.  Problem with the old one was not bearings or charging. It was that new decoupler pulley being used by many now instead of a solid drive pulley.  It would of cost me $100 just to get a new decoupler put on my old alternator with 130K miles on it.  So, $100 for a complete, brand new alternator WITH a new decoupler is a pretty good deal as I see it.

[Totem]

My "brand new" Chinese alternator for my Ram 2500 lasted exactly 1 year and 1 day, 1 day past the warranty period, so by that definition you may be correct. I'm not sure what Duralast stuff is, new re-used or what. I am assuming re-manufactured.

I'm still not convinced there is anything wrong with the OP's oem starter though and that's because you guys keep telling him its the starter without the symptoms.

He has no starter clicking sound when the issue occurs and its occurring after heavy high heated situations. Mine does the exact same thing.

I tried your suggestion of turning on my lights to see if they dim and also monitor battery while attempting to start when i had the issue a few days ago; my voltage was 12.9 pretty steady. The starter was not getting voltage at all when in "over heat". hoping someone can explain that. And what is that wire going into the block that also goes into the computer harness, starter? looks to be some kind of temp sensor. It has a rubber boot over it. i ripped mine off and threw it out (boot) so that i could tell if the connector had come loose as that was the source of the issue for me. This is on my 22RE which is identical year to the OPs and mine does same thing...

 

I should also mention after crimping that connection so it was tight on the brass dog ear of that sensor i did not have the issue again the rest of the trip in 98 degrees in the smokey mountains.

[zero]

7 minutes ago, Totem said:

 

I'm still not convinced there is anything wrong with the OP's oem starter though and thats because you guys keep telling him its the starter without the symptoms.

 

More BS.  You need to read posts more carefully. I never said the starter was bad as you claim.  What I DID do is tell him how to diagnose the problem.  A 12 volt starter is designed to work properly at 9 volts.  So, if a starter "clicks" and it has at least 9 volts to it at the time - then YES, the  starter is the problem. If not, then there is a power-feed problem.  Do you understand the words and sentences here?

[Totem]

Ok, just making sure we are on the same page then..

for a second I thought you guys (plural) were suggesting he replace starter...I lumped you in there with the others that did. Sorry for that; after all he did try to replace it. As to understanding words or sentences, no, i often don't understand the intent of ones typed messages; So if you are offended then its a sad day for you.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Totem

[zero]

I am not going to speak for others.  For myself - I suggested that IF he had to get a starter - a brand new one might be a better bet then a "rebuilt" one.  I never said he absolutely needed it. I don't think anyone else did either.  It 's all there to re-read for anyone that  cares.

RE: New Chinese starters.  Obviously they are all not the same, just like "American cars" are not all the same.   I have only been using the Pure Energy brand and have had zero problems. First such starter when on my 1983 Chevy diesel truck about 12 years ago. 

[Totem]

any idea or comment on whether the starter is disabled by some kind of heat event guys? JDE?

[Kale]

I haven't been on here for a few days because I'm currently boondocking in Lassen National Forest. I've only had the issue reoccur once since trying to replace the starter, after the 5000' or so climb to get up here.

I didn't take it as anyone telling me I needed to replace the starter, but since I was limited on time and I'm not experienced enough to do much more than just replace stuff, I figured it was worth a try.

Next time it happens I'll try to get a voltage read on the wire from the ignition to the solenoid, to narrow down where the problem is.

[Kale]

I made it to Anchorage, AK with the starting issue. Whenever I had trouble starting I found that tapping the starter with a hammer would let me start it up immediately. I figured that was a pretty good indication of a problem with the starter and decided to try replacing it again. It starts much easier now and I haven't had anymore issues, though I've only driven a couple hundred miles since replacing it. Time will tell if that truly fixed it.

Thanks again for all the help!