Maineah Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 RV appliances are grounded fridges; furnace converter/chargers if you are between them and a hot circuit you are going to be the path if there is a ground fault. RV’s fall into the “temporary service” code that is why the manufactures install them not because they want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctgriffi Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 I have never seen a small electrical fan that would not move easily with a small amount of pressure... Yeah, that was my thought as well. I can't imagine this fan ever moving under its own power, it was that difficult to rotate. And, thanks for the link to newer converters; I've been researching those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 RV appliances are grounded fridges; furnace converter/chargers if you are between them and a hot circuit you are going to be the path if there is a ground fault. RV’s fall into the “temporary service” code that is why the manufactures install them not because they want to. Not in my NEC code book version 2011. RVs and RV parks are a separate category under article 551.40. "Temporary installations" are under article 590.6. Appliances in RVs are NOT to be grounded and the code book makes a big deal out of it since it made mistakes about the terminology in previous editions. Do not ground interior electrical equipment. Where 551.55 speaks of "grounding," it means "bonding." If you review these terms in Article 100, you will see the terminology error when you read the requirements. Make sure you bond, not ground, interior equipment in recreational vehicle wiring. 1. This grounding/bonding error is repeated in 55.76. You will have to refer back to the Article 100 definitions to make sense of these requirements. You must comply with the intent of the NEC here, not with what it says. If you ground where you should bond, someone can be electrocuted due to that error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yeah, that was my thought as well. I can't imagine this fan ever moving under its own power, it was that difficult to rotate. And, thanks for the link to newer converters; I've been researching those. Might be able to remove it and with oil and such get it going, but it is 20+ years old and was not very good when it was new! From what I know a new one will pay for itself in saved batteries. There are some you tube video's on installing them, which might help? Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Not in my NEC code book version 2011. RVs and RV parks are a separate category under article 551.40. "Temporary installations" are under article 590.6. Appliances in RVs are NOT to be grounded and the code book makes a big deal out of it since it made mistakes about the terminology in previous editions. Do not ground interior electrical equipment. Where 551.55 speaks of "grounding," it means "bonding." If you review these terms in Article 100, you will see the terminology error when you read the requirements. Make sure you bond, not ground, interior equipment in recreational vehicle wiring. 1. This grounding/bonding error is repeated in 55.76. You will have to refer back to the Article 100 definitions to make sense of these requirements. You must comply with the intent of the NEC here, not with what it says. If you ground where you should bond, someone can be electrocuted due to that error. Color me confused, is a PD9145 an appliance? Because is specifically states that it must have a chassis ground! Now I have to go look at a couple other things. Jim SW FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Color me confused, is a PD9145 an appliance? Because is specifically states that it must have a chassis ground! Now I have to go look at a couple other things. Jim SW FL It appears to me what they are saying is that anything inside the RV that is hooked to any kind of AC power must have the neutral bonded to the metal chassis of the device. So there can indeed be a ground wire also but it must be joined i.e. "bonded" with the white neutral wire. Yes it is confusing. I guess that is why they had to rewrite the 2011 code manual since, it seems, it was even more confusing before. And yes, the PD9145 is an "appliance." So - if you have a sub-panel, AKS "branch circuit" in your house - ground and neutral is always separate and never bonded together. But in your motorhome - they are bonded in any device that has a metal chassis it seems. I still do not understand why GFCIs are required in RVs. I know they are, just don't know why. I WOULD understand a main GFCI breaker for all the AC being required. That makes more sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I have the 12 pages of code here that I would post that is specific for RVs. But - this forum software keeps blocking me. It says my post has "too many emoticons." ???? As far as I can tell, it is just text but it gets blocked anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Not in my NEC code book version 2011. RVs and RV parks are a separate category under article 551.40. "Temporary installations" are under article 590.6. Appliances in RVs are NOT to be grounded and the code book makes a big deal out of it since it made mistakes about the terminology in previous editions. Do not ground interior electrical equipment. Where 551.55 speaks of "grounding," it means "bonding." If you review these terms in Article 100, you will see the terminology error when you read the requirements. Make sure you bond, not ground, interior equipment in recreational vehicle wiring. 1. This grounding/bonding error is repeated in 55.76. You will have to refer back to the Article 100 definitions to make sense of these requirements. You must comply with the intent of the NEC here, not with what it says. If you ground where you should bond, someone can be electrocuted due to that error. Now I am wondering again? If electrical devices are not to be grounded in the RV. My 120V ground buss bar, is separate from the 120V common buss bar as it should be, but the 120V ground buss bar has a wire running to the vehicle frame. Which when I read what you have posted is wrong?? Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I think part of the problem in the way the code is written is the use of the word "ground." In residential wiring with alternating current - "ground" refers to an earth-ground. I.e. the dirt we stand on and it has to be damp. When the word "ground" is used with automotive type DC wiring - it is technically an incorrect term. An RV has no "ground" unless it is either plugged into shore power - or has a ground conductor bolted to it when parked. A "chassis ground" is not a ground. It is using the steel chassis as a huge neutral buss-bar. The truck frame becomes one huge negative battery cable. The real confusion comes in with an RV since it has a mix of many electrical systems - all in one place. DC, AC, generator on board, shore power, etc. Here is some more code written just for RVs (not temp structures or work places). The forum software keeps blocking my posts with code stating it has "too many emoticons." Yet, there are none. I'll try smaller pieces at at time. Appliance, Fixed. An appliance that is fastened or otherwise secured at a specific location. Appliance, Portable. An appliance that is actually moved or can easily be moved from one place to another in normal use. FPN: For the purpose of this article, the following major appliances, other than built-in, are considered portable if cord connected: refrigerators, range equipment, clothes washers, dishwashers without booster heaters, or other similar appliances. Appliance, Stationary. An appliance that is not easily moved from one place to another in normal use. Recreational Vehicle. A vehicular-type unit primarily designed as temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use, which either has its own motive power or is mounted on or drawn by another vehicle. The basic entities are travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, and motor home. ( Voltage Converters (120-Volt Alternating Current to Low-Voltage Direct Current). The 120-volt ac side of the voltage converter shall be wired in full conformity with Parts I, II, III, IV, and V requirements of this article for 120-volt electrical systems. Exception: Converters supplied as an integral part of a listed appliance shall not be subject to 551.20( . All converters and transformers shall be listed for use in recreational vehicles and designed or equipped to provide over-temperature protection. To determine the converter rating, the following formula shall be applied to the total connected load, including average battery charging rate, of all 12-volt equipment: The first 20 amperes of load at 100 percent, plus The second 20 amperes of load at 50 percent, plus All load above 40 amperes at 25 percent Exception: A low-voltage appliance that is controlled by a momentary switch (normally open) that has no means for holding in the closed position or refrigerators with a 120volt function shall not be considered as a connected load when determining the required converter rating. Momentarily energized appliances shall be limited to those used to prepare the vehicle for occupancy or travel. © Bonding Voltage Converter Enclosures. The non– current-carrying metal enclosure of the voltage converter shall be connected to the frame of the vehicle with a minimum 8 AWG copper conductor. The voltage converter shall be provided with a separate chassis bonding conductor that shall not be used as a current-carrying conductor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 OK - now I see emoticons when I post here. They do not show up in hard-copy on my computer. Odd. Here is more . . IV. Nominal 120-Volt or 120/240-Volt Systems 551.40 120-Volt or 120/240-Volt, Nominal, Systems .40 120-Volt or 120/240-Volt, Nominal, Systems. (A) General Requirements. The electrical equipment and material of recreational vehicles indicated for connection to a wiring system rated 120 volts, nominal, 2-wire with equipment grounding conductor, or a wiring system rated 120/240 volts, nominal, 3-wire with equipment grounding conductor, shall be listed and installed in accordance with the requirements of Parts I, II, III, IV, and V of this article. Electrical equipment connected line-to-line shall have a voltage rating of 208–230 volts. ( Materials and Equipment. Electrical materials, devices, appliances, fittings, and other equipment installed in, intended for use in, or attached to the recreational vehicle shall be listed. All products shall be used only in the manner in which they have been tested and found suitable for the intended use. © Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. The internal wiring of a recreational vehicle having only one 15or 20-ampere branch circuit as permitted in 551.42(A) and ( shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. The ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed at the point where the power supply assembly terminates within the recreational vehicle. Where a separable cord set is not employed, the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be permitted to be an integral part of the attachment plug of the power supply assembly. The groundfault circuit interrupter shall provide protection also under the conditions of an open grounded circuit conductor, interchanged circuit conductors, or both. 551.41 Receptacle Outlets Required .41 Receptacle Outlets Required. (A) Spacing. Receptacle outlets shall be installed at wall spaces 600 mm (2 ft) wide or more so that no point along the floor line is more than 1.8 m (6 ft), measured horizontally, from an outlet in that space. Exception No. 1: Bath and hall areas. Exception No. 2: Wall spaces occupied by kitchen cabinets, wardrobe cabinets, built-in furniture, behind doors that may open fully against a wall surface, or similar facilities. ( Location. Receptacle outlets shall be installed as follows: (1) Adjacent to countertops in the kitchen [at least one on each side of the sink if countertops are on each side and are 300 mm (12 in.) or over in width] (2) Adjacent to the refrigerator and gas range space, except where a gas-fired refrigerator or cooking appliance, requiring no external electrical connection, is factory installed 3) Adjacent to countertop spaces of 300 mm (12 in.) or more in width that cannot be reached from a receptacle required in 551.41((1) by a cord of 1.8 m (6 ft) without crossing a traffic area, cooking appliance, or sink © Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where provided, each 125-volt, single-phase, 15or 20-ampere receptacle outlet shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel in the following locations: (1) Adjacent to a bathroom lavatory (2) Where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and are within 1.8 m (6 ft) of any lavatory or sink Exception No. 1: Receptacles installed for appliances in dedicated spaces, such as for dishwashers, disposals, refrigerators, freezers, and laundry equipment. Exception No. 2: Single receptacles for interior connections of expandable room sections. Exception No. 3: De-energized receptacles that are within 1.8 m (6 ft) of any sink or lavatory due to the retraction of the expandable room section. (3) In the area occupied by a toilet, shower, tub, or any combination thereof (4) On the exterior of the vehicle Exception: Receptacles that are located inside of an access panel that is installed on the exterior of the vehicle to supply power for an installed appliance shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection. The receptacle outlet shall be permitted in a listed luminaire. A receptacle outlet shall not be installed in a tub or combination tub–shower compartment. (D) Face-Up Position. A receptacle shall not be installed in a face-up position in any countertop or similar horizontal surfaces within the living area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 And more . . 551.42 Branch Circuits Required. Each recreational vehicle containing an ac electrical system shall contain one of the circuit arrangements in 551.42(A) through (D). (A) One 15-Ampere Circuit. One 15-ampere circuit to supply lights, receptacle outlets, and fixed appliances. Such recreational vehicles shall be equipped with one 15-ampere switch and fuse or one 15-ampere circuit breaker. ( One 20-Ampere Circuit. One 20-ampere circuit to supply lights, receptacle outlets, and fixed appliances. Such recreational vehicles shall be equipped with one 20-ampere switch and fuse or one 20-ampere circuit breaker. © Two to Five 15or 20-Ampere Circuits. A maximum of five 15or 20-ampere circuits to supply lights, receptacle outlets, and fixed appliances shall be permitted. Such recreational vehicles shall be permitted to be equipped with distribution panelboards rated 120 volts maximum or 120/240 volts maximum and listed for 30-ampere application supplied by the appropriate power-supply assemblies. Not more than two 120-volt thermostatically controlled appliances (e.g., air conditioner and water heater) shall be installed in such systems unless appliance isolation switching, energy management systems, or similar methods are used. Exception: Additional 15or 20-ampere circuits shall be permitted where a listed energy management system rated at 30-ampere maximum is employed within the system. FPN: See 210.23(A) for permissible loads. See 551.45© for main disconnect and overcurrent protection requirements. (D) More Than Five Circuits Without a Listed Energy Management System. A 50-ampere, 120/208–240-volt power-supply assembly and a minimum 50-ampere-rated distribution panelboard shall be used where six or more circuits are employed. The load distribution shall ensure a reasonable current balance between phases. 551.43 Branch-Circuit Protection .43 Branch-Circuit Protection. (A) Rating. The branch-circuit overcurrent devices shall be rated as follows: (1) Not more than the circuit conductors, and (2) Not more than 150 percent of the rating of a single appliance rated 13.3 amperes or more and supplied by an individual branch circuit, but (3) Not more than the overcurrent protection size marked on an air conditioner or other motor-operated appliances ( Protection for Smaller Conductors. A 20-ampere fuse or circuit breaker shall be permitted for protection for fixtures, including luminaires, leads, cords, or small appliances, and 14 AWG tap conductors, not over 1.8 m (6 ft) long for recessed luminaires. © Fifteen-Ampere Receptacle Considered Protected by 20 Amperes. If more than one receptacle or load is on a branch circuit, a 15-ampere receptacle shall be permitted to be protected by a 20-ampere fuse or circuit breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Last segment I am posting . . 551.44 Power-Supply Assembly. Each recreational vehicle shall have only one of the main power-supply assemblies covered in 551.44(A) through (D). (A) Fifteen-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(A) shall use a listed 15-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly. ( Twenty-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42( shall use a listed 20-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly. © Thirty-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42© shall use a listed 30-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly. (D) Fifty-Ampere Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(D) shall use a listed 50-ampere, 120/208–240-volt main power-supply assembly. 551.45 Distribution Panelboard .45 Distribution Panelboard. (A) Listed and Appropriately Rated. A listed and appropriately rated distribution panelboard or other equipment specifically listed for this purpose shall be used. The grounded conductor termination bar shall be insulated from the enclosure as provided in 551.54©. An equipment grounding terminal bar shall be attached inside the enclosure of the panelboard. ( Location. The distribution panelboard shall be installed in a readily accessible location with the RV in the setup mode.Working clearance for the panelboard with the RV in the setup mode shall be not less than 600 mm (24 in.) wide and 750 mm (30 in.) deep. Exception No. 1: Where the panelboard cover is exposed to the inside aisle space, one of the working clearance dimensions shall be permitted to be reduced to a minimum of 550 mm (22 in.). A panelboard is considered exposed where the panelboard cover is within 50 mm (2 in.) of the aisle’s finished surface. Exception No. 2: Compartment doors used for access to a generator shall be permitted to be equipped with a locking system. © Dead-Front Type. The distribution panelboard shall be of the dead-front type and shall consist of one or more circuit breakers or Type S fuseholders. A main disconnecting means shall be provided where fuses are used or where more than two circuit breakers are employed. A main overcurrent protective device not exceeding the power-supply assembly rating shall be provided where more than two branch circuits are employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 If you add a space between 'B' & ')', you won't get ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Thanks for taking the time and effort to post this. All very interesting, but I am going to do what wafco diagram shows, which is the 120V negative buss is grounded to chassis frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 would not let me add picture? This leaves the bonding at source. Jim left click to enlarge photo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctgriffi Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share Posted December 21, 2015 Another electrical question, so I'm appending this to my earlier thread: With coach battery tested at 11.8V, I see no change in voltage with engine/alt running? (Starter battery voltage shows 14.35V with engine running.) Bad isolator? Also, what's the little gizmo on the left, wired between starter battery + and isolator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 That's an automatic resetting circuit breaker. Could be your problem if it's no longer resetting itself Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Thanks for taking the time and effort to post this. All very interesting, but I am going to do what wafco diagram shows, which is the 120V negative buss is grounded to chassis frame.Every thing is frame grounded in an RV including the converter/charger case and all grounding in outlets and 12 volt devices. The RV is treated as a sub panel (well because it is) the neutral is not frame grounded it is isolated from the ground inside of the load center. There is logic to this if the camp ground is reversed wired it would be possible to end up with a hot frame not a good thing with your hand on the grab handle and your feet on the ground. Grounding is ambiguous once you plug the RV into a camp ground the frame is a ground. As long as it is not it is not a ground it's just a common bonding point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Another electrical question, so I'm appending this to my earlier thread: With coach battery tested at 11.8V, I see no change in voltage with engine/alt running? (Starter battery voltage shows 14.35V with engine running.) Bad isolator? Also, what's the little gizmo on the left, wired between starter battery + and isolator? image.jpg Linda is correct it could be you breaker it is directly connected to you isolator if no power is getting thru it no matter how good the isolator is it won't work. Check for voltage at the big terminal on the isolator right next to it. That will let you know there is voltage thru the breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 All checks with the engine running. #1 Check voltage first at terminal marked "A." It should be the same as whatever charge-voltage is to the other (cranking) battery. If good, move on to step #2. If NO power - there are wiring problems unrelated to the relay or breaker. #2 Check voltage at terminal "B." It should be the same as "A." If not -go to step # 3. If it DOEs have 12-14 volts, go to step #4. #3 Check voltage at terminal "C." If good (12-14 volts) - the relay is bad. If no power -there is a wiring problem and the relay is not getting energized. #4 Check voltage at terminal "D." If good (12-14 volts) - go step #5. #5 Check voltage at terminal "E." If no power - the circuit breaker is bad. If good - there are wiring problems between this point and the "house" battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 You got a bit of a rusty mess there it's going to be hard to get a voltage reading at any terminal. The connections under the nuts probably are clean so you may be able to get a good reading right on the wire terminal. If you try to remove the nuts on the breaker go to the auto parts store first and buy a new one you will not get the nuts off with out destroying the breaker. The big ugly relay is nothing more than an electrical on/off switch activated by power from the ign key switch generally connected to the wiper motor wiring under the hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctgriffi Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Thanks for all the replies. I'll probably do some further testing, but it seems like it makes sense to just replace both parts since they're old/rusty. If anybody has PN# handy, let me know. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 NAPA 30 amp breaker is part # CB6339. I would NOT go to a place like NAPA for a continuous-duty relay since they will charge you over $50. O'Rielly's has them for $30-something bucks. Surplus Sales (on line) has them MUCH cheaper. You just have to make sure it is rated for high amps and continuous duty. They come in "insulated" and "uninsulated" versions. "Insulated" means it has two small poles to activate - one switched hot and one ground. "Uninsulated" means there is just on small pole to hook the switched-hot wire to. Ground is via the metal case of the solenoid/relay. If you need new nuts for the circuit breaker -they are fine thread. 10/32. Not always easy to find at some stores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 You can just replace them but be sure to buy terminal ends for the wires the chances are pretty high you won't get the nuts off the breakers because the plastic will break and the wire will still be stuck to the broken parts also when you remove any of the wires except the small one on the isolator relay they will be hot and unfused lots of sparks if they touch any thing metal. Personally I would find out just what is wrong before you start throwing parts at it then make a decision on what you want to replace just because. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctgriffi Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 All checks with the engine running. #1 Check voltage first at terminal marked "A." It should be the same as whatever charge-voltage is to the other (cranking) battery. If good, move on to step #2. If NO power - there are wiring problems unrelated to the relay or breaker. #2 Check voltage at terminal "B." It should be the same as "A." If not -go to step # 3. If it DOEs have 12-14 volts, go to step #4. #3 Check voltage at terminal "C." If good (12-14 volts) - the relay is bad. If no power -there is a wiring problem and the relay is not getting energized. #4 Check voltage at terminal "D." If good (12-14 volts) - go step #5. #5 Check voltage at terminal "E." If no power - the circuit breaker is bad. If good - there are wiring problems between this point and the "house" battery. Appreciate the detailed help with this, but I think that maybe I didn't explain my setup clearly: the little breaker on the left is wired straight to the cranking battery+, then it connects to the isolator and on to the coach (circuit flow is L to R in the photo). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Appreciate the detailed help with this, but I think that maybe I didn't explain my setup clearly: the little breaker on the left is wired straight to the cranking battery+, then it connects to the isolator and on to the coach (circuit flow is L to R in the photo). Since that is case - just do this. #1 - check voltage a "E" since it brings battery and charge-power from the cranking battery. If good, go to #2. #2 - check voltage at "D". If good, go to #3. If not good - the breaker is bad. #3 - check voltage at "B." If good, go to #4. #4 - check voltage at "A" If good go to #6. If NOT good, go to #5. #5 - check voltage at "C." If good - the relay is bad. If not good - fix the wiring. #6 - something beyond everything in the photo is the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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