Power Center Problems

[Ctgriffi]

While doing some winterization and coach clean-up recently, I realized that none of my outlets were working, even though shore power was connected to the same garage receptacle I always use (to keep my big marine battery charged; I don't use that circuit to run my roof A/C or anything "big"). I tried every single outlet in the RV, and all were dead. I also double-checked the two CBs on my panel, and neither had tripped. Some point later, I tried one of the outlets again, and it worked... then again, later, all outlets were dead again.

At the same time, all of the 12V lights/fans and water pump kept operating just fine, no problems.

Any idea what's happening here? I think I've got the original Magnetek Series 6300A unit—is it finally dying on me? What should I be checking/testing? Appreciate the help!

[Bob C]

I would start by checking to make sure that your supply outlet has power. Get your multimeter out and check it. If you are using an extension cord check that next. Keep working you way up to the converter. Check to see if your converter has fuses built into it. Do the search systematically-start at the beginning (supply) and work your way through the AC power. Your multimeter will tell you where the open circuit is.

I am going to bet that the connection with the extension cord is not being made. Your 12 volt stuff will continue working from the battery even if the 120volt is not hooked up.

[jjrbus]

Intermittent electrical problems, just shoot me! House is fuses or circuit breakers? Extension cord is likely culprit, or receptacle where it plugs in, gets the most use. I just hooked up my 120 in coach for the first time and no ground! Ground contact on extension cord had broke off, still in receptacle, bad timing on that one.

I am not familiar with your converter but it is unlikely that it going bad is the problem. Circuit breakers or buss or connections in it could be issue?

Are other outlets on same circuit in garage working? Circuit breaker can be defective, house or coach, also where circuit breaker makes contact with buss bar in panel can be worn and cause intermittent problem. Zinsco panels are known for this.

Then you are down to looking for loose connections or damaged wire. I like to check with a temperature gun abnormal high temperature shows resistance which causes heat.

If normal methods do not find problem a Non contact circuit tester can be moved along the wire until issue is found.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-12-600-VAC-Adjustable-Circuit-Alert-Non-Contact-Voltage-Tester-GVD-3505/202867896

Not recommending this tester, using it as an example. I have a GB. Good luck Jim

[Maineah]

I would check the GFI in the bath. Every thing else is down stream of the GFI.

[zero]

, I tried one of the outlets again, and it worked... then again, later, all outlets were dead again.

Can't be a GFCI since the outlets came on again without you resetting anything. No GFCI's that are self-resetting that I am aware of. Also can't be a circuit breaker UNLESS it is an automatically reset type breaker. Kind of a rare thing in an AC circuit. DC, yes.

[zero]

I took a look at one of my Magnatek 6300s. It DOES have a automatic resetting thermal AC breaker. So the problem you describe could be that. If overloaded, it turns off the AC, cools, and turns back on and tries again. If it has to do that too many times, it burns out and won't work anymore until you replace it.

[Ctgriffi]

Thanks for all the great replies, guys. I haven't put a multimeter on the garage outlet yet, but I'll probably start with that next. The extension cord I'm using is a 25' 10ga. triple tap, which lights up when current is present, so it's pretty clear if/when it's got juice. It wouldn't hurt to check the voltage, etc at the outlet, though; we haven't lived in the place for long, and the detached garage is on its own sub panel (four fuse box). Hard to say what kind of shape that wiring is in out there.

Jdemaris: You might be on to something there... I saw a thermal breaker in the technical docs for this converter and wondered if that was the problem, too. I'm not sure what could be causing the excessive heat that would trigger it (?).

[Ctgriffi]

FYI: For others who may need to research the Magnatek 6300 series, several tech docs are available on the Parallax Power Supply website.

[zero]

Thanks for all the great replies, guys. I haven't put a multimeter on the garage outlet yet, but I'll probably start with that next. The extension cord I'm using is a 25' 10ga. triple tap, which lights up when current is present, so it's pretty clear if/when it's got juice. It wouldn't hurt to check the voltage, etc at the outlet, though; we haven't lived in the place for long, and the detached garage is on its own sub panel (four fuse box). Hard to say what kind of shape that wiring is in out there.

Jdemaris: You might be on to something there... I saw a thermal breaker in the technical docs for this converter and wondered if that was the problem, too. I'm not sure what could be causing the excessive heat that would trigger it (?).

Excessive heat at first would be from current overload. But all there is inside that breaker is a bi-metal strip with contacts - not much different then a household furnace thermostat (non mercury type). Once the strip has overheated several times - it loses temper and gets worn out. Then it will trip even when not overloaded. It is cheap to replace. Probably a $10 item for the new breaker .

[Maineah]

Can't be a GFCI since the outlets came on again without you resetting anything. No GFCI's that are self-resetting that I am aware of. Also can't be a circuit breaker UNLESS it is an automatically reset type breaker. Kind of a rare thing in an AC circuit. DC, yes.

Guess you have never seen a bad GFI.

[Ctgriffi]

Excessive heat at first would be from current overload.

I guess, to rephrase my earlier question, I'm a little mystified as to what was causing the current overload and resultant heat. I think I had a small, portable AC fan running and maybe the fridge (in 110V mode). Nothing excessive.

Good to know that the thermal breaker is a cheap fix though, thanks.

[zero]

Guess you have never seen a bad GFI.

The GFCI came out in the 60s and I've probably replaced over a 100 bad ones. Self-contained GFCI duplexes as well as GFCI panel circuit-breakers. I have no idea what your "GFI" is. On the subject of GFCIs, like I already stated - I'm not aware of any that are self-resetting. If you know of one -please advise. All the ones I've dealt with are manual-reset only.

[jjrbus]

It may not be overheating, it is possible it is worn out. Or something causing resistance such as a loose connection or corrosion.

http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/connection.htm

Intermittent problems are terrible, but you will get an education trying to trace it down! Jim

[zero]

I guess, to rephrase my earlier question, I'm a little mystified as to what was causing the current overload and resultant heat. I think I had a small, portable AC fan running and maybe the fridge (in 110V mode). Nothing excessive.

Good to know that the thermal breaker is a cheap fix though, thanks.

I'm not saying the breaker is your problem. Just that it could be. It is the part marked TS1 in the upper left of this schematic. If it trips, the DC output would not be working either. But if you have a charged "house" battery hooked up - maybe you would notice right away if the converter DC was not working? Those little self-resetting Klixon breakers used to be in a lot of stuff. Now - the self-resetting breakers don't seem to be as common. More often manual reset.

[Maineah]

The GFCI came out in the 60s and I've probably replaced over a 100 bad ones. Self-contained GFCI duplexes as well as GFCI panel circuit-breakers. I have no idea what your "GFI" is. On the subject of GFCIs, like I already stated - I'm not aware of any that are self-resetting. If you know of one -please advise. All the ones I've dealt with are manual-reset only.

I took care of a 5 acre building for 15 years needless to say it had lots of ground fault interrupters (gfi) maybe because it was a jail and inmates like to use outlets to light cigarettes. I have seen them do very odd things from false tripping to catching fire with nothing plugged into them or just plan not passing current. It does not need to trip it just needs to lose contact internally it is not purely electronic it has mechanical parts. It stands between all of the MH outlets and the load center it stands to reason that it may just be the problem but hey what do I know. The converter/charger is not GFI protected nor the battery so all things DC would continue to work.

[Ctgriffi]

I'm not saying the breaker is your problem. Just that it could be. It is the part marked TS1 in the upper left of this schematic. If it trips, the DC output would not be working either. But if you have a charged "house" battery hooked up - maybe you would notice right away if the converter DC was not working?

10-4, thermal breaker is just a possibility. Hey, I'm no electrical engineer, but that schematic seems to indicate that the TS1 feeds the transformer directly... but not necessarily the AC coach outlets. Am I reading that correctly?

[Ctgriffi]

It stands between all of the MH outlets and the load center it stands to reason that it may just be the problem...

You make a good point here in terms of the circuit flow, but I think jdemaris is saying: "How could an issue with the GFI/GFCI create an open circuit and then, somehow, close that circuit again at some point in the future?"

In any case, I appreciate everybody's help.

[fred heath]

See if any of your duplex outlets are "back wired", especially down stream of your power supply.

I've seen these things create all kinds of intermittent problems.

Wires should be secured to the screw type side lugs on the outlet.

[zero]

I have seen them do very odd things from false tripping to catching fire with nothing plugged into them or just plan not passing current.

Your reply to me alluding to the idea I don't know how a GFCI works is what I was responding to. I stated twice, and now for the third time - I have never come across any sort of GFCI - duplex or panel-breaker-type, that is self-resetting. Have I seen them do all sorts of weird things? Heck yes. Many of the early one even if not defective and no "ground fault" present could trip if there was any capacitance in the system. Again - if there are self-resetting GFCIs out there - I am not aware of them. Subsequently - as it relates to the poster's problem here - since his power came back on on its own - I assume it cannot be a GFCI involved.

[zero]

On the subject of what Fred mentioned with the older-type back-wired duplexes. Yes, I've seen many intermittent problems with the old ones that were just "push in" type connectors in the back. Many if not most of the newer back-wire type duplexes now have screws that clamp down tight and work as well as any other.

[zero]

10-4, thermal breaker is just a possibility. Hey, I'm no electrical engineer, but that schematic seems to indicate that the TS1 feeds the transformer directly... but not necessarily the AC coach outlets. Am I reading that correctly?

Yes, you are correct. I didn't sit down and interpret the system as a whole. I was just commenting on the Magnatek itself. I've pretty much forgotten how the things work as integrated with the other wiring without sitting down and making a study out of it. I've got two of them here but they are not being used anymore. Some of those units had auto-sensing relays that sensed when there was no "shore power", or generator power, etc. and could stop the AC from working. I don't know if you have that setup or not.

[fred heath]

On the subject of what Fred mentioned with the older-type back-wired duplexes. Yes, I've seen many intermittent problems with the old ones that were just "push in" type connectors in the back. Many if not most of the newer back-wire type duplexes now have screws that clamp down tight and work as well as any other.

Actually JD, both types are still available. The residential grade is what you buy for about 60 cents at the big box stores. They accept 14 gage wire only. 15A/125V. Chances are this is the type of outlet you will find even in more recent construction. People like them because they're cheap and fast to install.

The industrial grade, screw and clamp outlet, (as you referenced) goes for about $5.50 each. Although as good a contact as "side wiring", most people just side wire the 60 cent unit. (residential use!).

Any push in back wired outlets should be switched to side wired.

[zero]

Actually JD, both types are still available.

I don't doubt it. Not what I commonly find here anymore though - and "here" amounts to the only two stores in my area of northern Michigan. I picked up four 10-packs a few weeks ago of residential grade 15 amp duplexes . They come with screw-clamp back wiring for 14 gauge wire only, and also the side-terminal screws. They were $18.50 per 10-pack. The same in the 20 amp version were a lot higher. I think they were over $30 for a 10-pack.

[fred heath]

That's a really good price. What's the brand name. ?

[Maineah]

Your reply to me alluding to the idea I don't know how a GFCI works is what I was responding to. I stated twice, and now for the third time - I have never come across any sort of GFCI - duplex or panel-breaker-type, that is self-resetting. Have I seen them do all sorts of weird things? Heck yes. Many of the early one even if not defective and no "ground fault" present could trip if there was any capacitance in the system. Again - if there are self-resetting GFCIs out there - I am not aware of them. Subsequently - as it relates to the poster's problem here - since his power came back on on its own - I assume it cannot be a GFCI involved.

They do not have to reset if they did not trip. I sorry you have never seen GFI issue beyond your scope of knowledge. The early GFI's were crude riding in the back of a MH for 25+ years does not do them any good. I did not say the GFI was the issue I said it might be a good ideal to check it. If no other problem are present for less than $10 I would replace it with a modern one. The same issues that occur in back feed outlets can occur inside of GFI's that have been subject to years of vibration that was never figured into the equation houses don’t move much. You can call them whatever you want when they were made and placed in Toy Homes they were GFI’s and frankly I do not need to be educated on the nomenclature we are now dealing with arc faults. By the way a "GFCI does not need a ground to work.

[Maineah]

Yes, you are correct. I didn't sit down and interpret the system as a whole. I was just commenting on the Magnatek itself. I've pretty much forgotten how the things work as integrated with the other wiring without sitting down and making a study out of it. I've got two of them here but they are not being used anymore. Some of those units had auto-sensing relays that sensed when there was no "shore power", or generator power, etc. and could stop the AC from working. I don't know if you have that setup or not.

The relay switched DC only the relay coils were 120 volt AC not the contacts they only switch from converter to battery. No effect what so ever on AC power.

[zero]

. By the way a "GFCI does not need a ground to work.

In a way, they DO need ground. They just don't need a ground wire hooked to them to work. They are called "ground fault current interrupters" because they monitor current flow running both directions (on the red or black HOT and white NEUTRAL). The flow must be the same both ways or it is assumed some current has found a path to ground somewhere. I know some early GFCIs were over-sensitive and could trip if there was just a little capacitance in the wiring and no path to ground. I haven't heard of that problem happening for a long time but it may just be due to a change in wire practices. Wire runs are usually kept short to avoid capacitance - often no more then 50-75 feet of wire per GFCI controlled run. And sorry if you don't like the GFCI acronym. As far as I know - it is what they have always been called since required by the NEC in the early 70s. In the 60s when code did not require them - they fell into a class of several different devices called "differential " something or other. I was working as a journeyman electrician when they were first required (at construction sites, not houses). It was a big deal since - at least at the power company I worked for (Public Service E&G) - most electrical worker deaths were from 120 volt Hertz Cycle current and not high voltage. Especially with outdoor workers standing on wet ground or climbing live trees full of sap and wearing boots with spikes. You keep referring to my "lack of knowledge." Well yeah - we all lack knowledge, i.e. nobody knows everything. Like I said before, I am not aware of any GFCIs that go off, and then come back on by themselves. A loose wire somewhere - yes.

[jjrbus]

Glad this discussion came up, I would without thought have likely reinstalled the GFI in the Toy, not knowing its age or condition. Even though I have a couple new ones in a drawer!

I know better but do not always think. Jim

[zero]

I just had to change several at my in-laws' house. They had the in-panel combination breaker and GFCI. Over $60 each ! I ripped them out and put in standard $4 breakers and then wired in a few GFCI duplexes where required. I've had nothing but trouble with any of the breaker/GFCI combos I've had or worked with. I'll add I've had more problems with GFCIs of any type with RVs then anywhere else. I don't mean when installed in an RV. I just mean when using one known to be good from a "shore power" source. Why, I don't know. Maybe from wires getting damp over the years? I never had an RV younger then 27 years. Having that problem right now in my kids chicken coop we made from an old camper. We just started using the outlets to power the water-heater and it keeps tripping anything plugged into a GFCI. Yeah, I'm sure there is something wrong somewhere. I assume dampness again.

[Ctgriffi]

Dug into my AC problem some more this afternoon and, yes, I'm feeling pretty dumb: There was indeed a tripped GFCI outlet that had disabled the entire circuit! I forgot that outlet even existed; it's located down low, underneath the dinette table, not in the bath like one might expect. Anyway, a quick reset restored all my AC outlets.

1. It still doesn't make sense that it could trip and then reset itself, I know. One explanation: after further investigation, I discovered that one of my coach outlets is not on the same circuit with all the others; maybe during my initial troubleshooting, I plugged into that one temporarily, which would have been active/hot while the other circuit was still tripped. Dunno...

2. Do I need that GFCI down under there? Could I, should I, replace it with a standard outlet? Is it important to have that protection on the circuit somewhere, albeit a different, more accessible location?

[Maineah]

If there are outlet downstream of that one, yes it should protect anything near water. Over kill maybe but why find out the hard way?

[jjrbus]

Now that you know the GFCI is there and it does not cause any issues, I see no reason to replace it. Plus you need to chase it down and see what other outlets it protects.

Jim SW FL

[Ctgriffi]

...you need to chase it down and see what other outlets it protects.

All of the outlets in the coach (except the one I mentioned earlier) are on the same circuit; I assume the GFCI protects them all, yes?

One other thing, guys/gals: Before I buttoned the power center back up, I vacuumed out tons of dust/crud from the lower transformer section. I noticed the hefty cooling fan on the back right of the unit and tried to reach in and give it a spin; that fan did not want to move. Even with a lot of pressure, it would barely rotate. That sound normal?

[zero]

Do I need that GFCI down under there? Could I, should I, replace it with a standard outlet? Is it important to have that protection on the circuit somewhere, albeit a different, more accessible location?

A GFCI outlet doesn't serve near as an important purpose in an RV like it does in a house. The reasons why electrical codes require GFCIs in houses/garages is about the ability of a human to be grounded. If you are grounded - you can become a path to ground and get electrocuted if exposed to hot current. That is why - again - in residential stuff - GFCIs are called for near water sources and/or dirt or concrete floors. Probably would of been required by the rotary phones except by the time GFCIs became a requirement - rotary phones were rare. The metal finger-stop on a rotary phone is a ground so it can put you in as much peril a touching water. Once you are inside an RV - there is no dirt or concrete floor. Also the water and water faucets and drains are NOT grounded like some houses. So water does NOT carry the same danger in an RV. In my opinion - the absolute most dangerous part of an RV when it comes to shock hazard of the metal exterior of the RV itself (if it IS metal). If there was an electrical short that found its way to the aluminum skin on an RV - it could be a death trap. Not when you are inside the RV. It would be when first stepping in, or stepping out when one foot touches a real "earth" ground. For that reason - the best protection would be a main GFCI breaker for the entire RV. I'm surprised they never became a requirement. The only danger I can think of with a standard non-GFCI outlet in an RV is when you plug an extension cord into it and then go outside to power something while standing on "earth" ground.

[jjrbus]

To the best of my knowledge and I'm just an RV'er not an electrician the GFI will only protect the outlets after it in a circuit, not any that are before it.

I have never seen a small electrical fan that would not move easily with slight pressure. If you use your coach alot or plan on keeping it a long time it might be time to upgrade your power center. Mine had a Progressive Dynamics when I bought it and they have a good reputation. The original equipment ones are hard on batteries.

http://www.progressivedyn.com/power_converters.html