ToyoGuy Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Howdy All, Am swapping-out a long block on a carburated 22R in an '84 Sunrader 4x4. Thought I'd put out a RFC on what clutch components others have used in their repairs and how they fared over time. Am thinking of laying out the extra weasel-hides (about $100 + more) for heavy duty / crawler stuff. Any opinions? Thanks for any takers.... BR, TG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 If you got everything apart, my feeling is put the most heavy duty parts into it that your budget can afford. Not sure if your year has the hydraulic clutch slave cylinder. If it does,the hydraulics will allow you to use heavy duty clutch components without getting leg strain while holding down the clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Greater clamping force = harsher engagement. They do make a heaver duty one but don’t be fooled into race/off road type stuff you won’t like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Howdy All, Am swapping-out a long block on a carburated 22R in an '84 Sunrader 4x4. Thought I'd put out a RFC on what clutch components others have used in their repairs and how they fared over time. Am thinking of laying out the extra weasel-hides (about $100 + more) for heavy duty / crawler stuff. Any opinions? Thanks for any takers.... BR, TG My take is this. The OEM clutch components are more then durable enough. I don't want something built heavier. All "heavier" usually means is more spring pressure on the pressure plate and more aggressive material in the clutch-disk-facing that means more flywheel wear. The OEM stuff has a nice balance where the disk lasts a long time and the flywheel barely wears at all. Now if you are talking about using OEM components for a 4WD that has a slightly larger pressure plate and disk - yeah - same reasoning as I see it. 4WD OEM clutch is 3/8" bigger diameter then our 2WD motorhomes have.. I pulled my 78 Chinook apart to convert from a 4 speed to a 5 speed. 120K miles and looks as if it had never been apart. OEM clutch still looked pretty good. I'll add that if your RV is geared high and it has to work to get started in 1st gear - you are money ahead to change the gearing instead of worrying about a more HD clutch. Back in the 90s - when I was a John Deere mechanic - Deere changed the standard organic clutches to so-called HD ceramic in log skidders and 4WD farm tractors. We had nothing but trouble. Those disks would wear out the flywheels faster then the original organic disks wore. We finally had to start switching them all back to the original style. My two cents. I'd stick with the OEM setup - it is a good one. If getting started in 1st is hard on the clutch - consider a gear change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I forgot to ask. Which 5 speed does your truck have? If it is a W50, 1st gear is too high and really needs a rear-axle gear change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyoGuy Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Thanks for replies. fredheath - Yeah, I got the hydralic slave and might replace that too. Maineah - Thanks, I am not a crawler-guy and have no first hand experience with this stuff, so I value this input. jdemaris, thanks, you nailed one issue for sure, I have the higher-geared rearend you spoke of. Great I guess, if you live in a plains state. Here in Kali, I have a "down-hill" driveway and I use 4WD Low to get up and out. (no turning) Once up on the street, I switch the hubs and everything back. In the interim, seems like I should start parking "nose-in" to use lower-geared reverse to back out instead until I can deal with the gearing issue. Hmmmm, guess with gearing down, I'll lose some of that "famous Toyota RV top end speed" huh? Thanks again, TG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 You've probably got a G54 trans that has a pretty low 1st gear at 3.91. Much depends on what your rear-axle ratio is and what size tires you are running. A typical Toyota RV that is 20-21 feet long and with a 4.10 axle cannot use overdrive even with the stock 26" diameter tires. At least not against the wind or on grades. If you are running something even bigger 31" or 32" tires - it even gets worse. Can you use your 5th overdrive now without lugging the engine? If not, you might be way ahead to stick in a 4.56 or 4.88 rear and then get the best of both worlds. Easier to start in 1st and nicer to drive in 5th OD. 32" tires with a 4.88 rear in 5th gear would be perfect with 2400 RPM @ 60 MPH. 185R-14C tires with a 4.56 rear in 5th gear would also be fine at 60 MPH @ 2850 RPM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I agree with jd. Stock Toyota parts are great. I used to be into upgrading to "heavy duty" stuff on my 4x4 trucks. In many cases it didn't work out all that well. Toyota engineering is just hard to beat. Many companies make a product that has some stronger this or some stronger that, but they don't hold up as well. They aren't engineered as well. In theory, the idea is sound. But the execution is lacking. So they make a stronger part but with lower quality work. From what I've heard, a heavier duty clutch will also tear up your flywheel more. And the pedal will be way more stiff; way harder to press down. With just a few exceptions, there just isn't much to improve on over Toyota OEM parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyoGuy Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Well,...... with an 18' rig, on flat highway (with dry compression readings of 135 to 145 in 4 cyls, hence long block swap) and, Kumho AT51's - 215/75 R15 s, I can use 5th, but in a stiff head wind, I'm kinda SOL. My new wrench guy and I talked about doing the gearing switch and he mentioned both ratios you listed, but for the money, we thought I might wait and see what the new motor pulls like. Anyway, likely there is room for improvement down the road. Also, the mechanic / builder said essentially the same about clutches so I'll be going with stock stuff. Thanks for the data guys, those gearing - tire size calculations give me a headache! TG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I don't know what you have now for a rear axle ratio. If you have a 4.10 to 1, like the 2WDs usually have - having those bigger tires makes 4.10 into a 3.73. If you installed a 4.56 rear, it would run the same RPMs as a Toyota 2WD RV with a 4.10 rear. My point being is that a 4.56 with your tires is the same as having a 4.10 with the smaller 185R-14C used on 2WD RVs. May sound confusing but I'm not skilled enough to say it simpler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Nice ratio calculator http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html His is a 4x4 so changing gears needs to match front and back. He's not far from me and there are lots of used differentials and transaxles available near here. Plenty of skilled 4x4 places too that can switch out the gears. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 His is a 4x4 so changing gears needs to match front and back. And tire diameters. Or if you really want to get into it, 'loaded radius'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyoGuy Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Thanks for the explanation, actually that helps a lot. Come to think about it, I have a daily driver w/a 22R EFI that used to pre-detonate and crackle a lot even with premium fuel. I put some very small diameter tires on it for another reason and bingo, more low-end torque and no pre-detonation. Just gotta watch my ground-clearance now. On the re-gear, Yeah, Linda, my guy said about $1,500 to do the switch front and back. Going to have to wait and save up some more dough as there is some other driveline work on the horizon as well. BR, TG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 As Derek indicated, tire sizes can be as important as axle-ratios. No, a rear gear change in a 4WD does not always require a gear change in front. It depends on your tire choices, front and back. This Deere tractor is an extreme example but it certainly does not have matching gear ratios. In an ideal situation - a 4WD is supposed to have slightly faster wheels in front then in back so the front axle pulls you - instead of the rear axle pushing you. That all said - if you want same-size tires front and back - then you need to change front and rear if you want the 4WD to work well. If it's just for emergency use when you get stuck - it might not matter all that much. That is just for enough use to get unstuck. Many of the first 4WD tractors had hydraulic motors driving the front wheels with no speed control. Called "front wheel drive assist" and could really make a mess of a field if driven too far. Sometimes those front wheels spun twice as fast as the back. The new ones like in the photo are mechanical 4WD and wheel speeds match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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