Egr Valve Replacement?

[redskinman]

Ok back at it this morning.Did the test by pulling spark plug wires off distrib cap one by one,still cyl 4 there is no change in how engine runs when pulling off this wire.Tried rag over exhaust trick,I am not hearing a hissing sound coming from anywhere.As you can hear in this video,the exhaust note is a sputtering sound,it's sounded this way since I've first started working on it no matter what I've done.I'm sure it's because of the misfire.I'm just so tired of messing with it,my wifes tired of me messing with it,it's consuming my thoughts on wtf is wrong with this damn thing.

Only thing I know to do now is go back and pull off plenum and test fuel injs with multimeter,I just dont feel like doing it.I would think the chances are very slim that if one of the injs I put in was bad that it would happen to be the one in cylinder 4.

 

[redskinman]

So it just occurred to me,to check the injs on engine now is major pain in as,have to take plenum off to gain access.But I do have old injs I took off that I have never tested and since I had problem with cyl 4 with old injs that it would be a good idea to check old injs and see if one was bad and it might have been the one that was on cyl 4.Well they all tested at 14.2,so it's still possible that the old one I took off 4 is so clogged it wasnt working,and it's still possible the new one I put on 4 is bad,the chances seem highly unlikely,I t5hink something else is causing the misfire on 4.

Edited March 19, 2017 by redskinman

[WME]

Out of ideas. Try pulling the plug wires trick but at 2-3000 RPM see what happens

[vrocrider]

Sorry distributor didn't help.

Note, it is easy to get distributor change off by a tooth. Truck will still start & run just not right. This was my experience. I rolled it back a tooth in the direction where I thought I might be off. I reset timing with a timing light & I was good to go.  

With this in mind I suggest you get timing light. You need this to set your ignition timing which must be reset since you have moved the distributor. Also, since you suspect issue with plug #4, put the magnetic pickup for the light on plug wire 4 to verify that it is receiving an electrical charge or light pulse on your timing light.  

Note, if you marked your old distributor body location on mount & returned it to the exact same place then the timing should not have changed. If you are using new distributor all bets are off & you must reset timing.    

For a cylinder to produce power you need fuel, fire(ignition) & compression. It seems you've verified compression. The timing light will allow you to verify ignition on plug 4. If that's OK I would investigate fuel delivery to plug 4. To do this I would remove plug cap to plug #4 & turn engine over a few times to "wet" the plug with fuel. Immediately pull the plug and look for signs of fuel on plug tip. Results of this should give you some direction.  

My apologies if what have I suggested has already been done. I have had difficulty moving between the 8 pages on the EGR topic.     

My suggestion, stay focused on miss & ignore exhaust leak for now. FYI I too have an exhaust leak under the hood on the passenger side.     

Edited March 20, 2017 by vrocrider

[redskinman]

1 hour ago, vrocrider said:

Sorry distributor didn't help.

Note, it is easy to get distributor change off by a tooth. Truck will still start & run just not right. This was my experience. I rolled it back a tooth in the direction where I thought I might be off. I reset timing with a timing light & I was good to go.  

With this in mind I suggest you get timing light. You need this to set your ignition timing which must be reset since you have moved the distributor. Also, since you suspect issue with plug #4, put the magnetic pickup for the light on plug wire 4 to verify that it is receiving an electrical charge or light pulse on your timing light.  

Note, if you marked your old distributor body location on mount & returned it to the exact same place then the timing should not have changed. If you are using new distributor all bets are off & you must reset timing.    

For a cylinder to fire you need fuel, fire(ignition) & compression. It seems you've verified compression. The timing light will allow you to verify ignition on plug 4. If that's OK I would investigate fuel delivery to plug 4. To do this I would remove plug cap to plug #4 & turn engine over a few times to "wet" the plug with fuel. Immediately pull the plug and look for signs of fuel on plug tip. Results of this should give you some direction.  

My apologies if what have I suggested has already been done. I have had difficulty moving between the 8 pages on the EGR topic.     

My suggestion, stay focused on miss & ignore exhaust leak for now. FYI I too have an exhaust leak under the hood on the passenger side.     

yes it was off by tooth first go round,it started but idled high,but when I gave it gas I thought the misfire was gone but could have been wishful thinking.Pulled distr back out and moved it and tried again,idled normallly,confirmed with timing light it was good. I do need to pull the plug and see if its wet.

[Derek up North]

A bit pricey.  I had one ~40 years ago.

https://www.amazon.com/Colortune-for-14mm-Spark-Plug/dp/B000E9VGNM

[vrocrider]

Oreilleys has an ignition tester $6.49 part # W86554 by Performance Tool. The idea is one end has plug cap & the other end receives plug wire coming from distributor. It has a chamber that lights up verifying power to plug. Check all plugs for fire.

  

[Maineah]

Little note on the distributor. It has a single impulse pickup it counts the impulse rotor divided by 6 every 60*. The rotor is a fixed star wheel the pickup is triggered by the star wheel it does not care what cylinder it counts. Just that it was triggered. Yes there were some issues but everyone I encountered were no starts.

[redskinman]

6 hours ago, vrocrider said:

Oreilleys has an ignition tester $6.49 part # W86554 by Performance Tool. The idea is one end has plug cap & the other end receives plug wire coming from distributor. It has a chamber that lights up verifying power to plug. Check all plugs for fire.

  

I had already done that before changing injs and everything tested good.

Ok had a few minutes to check it when I got home from work before it got dark.I had extra igniter I bought off ebay ,Switched out igniters,they were not the same part number but when I google toyota igniter 89621-12010 its says its for a 89-92 toyota pickup or 4 runner with the v-6 so I took the chance,it ran the same.Only ran it about a minute and turned it off and switched them back.Then I started it back up and ran it a couple minutes then pulled the plug,it was dry,so I pulled plug next to it,it was dry also.So i put them back in and let truck cool off a few minutes while I put some wiper fluid in my truck.Tried again,this time running it for exactly 60 seconds,pulled both plugs,which i'm sure took me at most 3 minutes to do,both were dry again.It was plug 6 I was checking also,and cyl 6 passes the pulling the wire off cap test.
I then tried pulling plug 4 and laying it on engine for spark test,No one was home to help me so I had to crank it myself.I had it laying up near throttle body so I could see it from cab,when I turned engine over I saw a white spark on plug before plug fell from it's perch almost as soon as turning it over.I didnt try it again because engine sounded awful without plug in hole{and I had connector hose that attaches to throttle body off because its easier to get to plugs with it off}so it scared me wondering if I did something wrong.While plug is out and laying on engine and you crank it over will engine still start? I saw the plug get a white spark,no blue but like I said it fell as soon as turning it over. Heres pic of what plug looked like when pulled tonight.

Edited March 21, 2017 by redskinman

[redskinman]

On 3/15/2017 at 8:52 PM, vrocrider said:

I'm no longer in Houston. Need to update my profile. Recently moved to the Alabama gulf coast. Don't miss Houston.

Very surprised about the treatment you received at Skeeters. I've had them do some stuff that others didn't do right and was very pleased. Several different cars over several years. Only down side is per hour rate is close or at dealer rate. Up side is they know what they're doing & you won't waste time or money guessing what will fix problem.

An alternate to email I'd suggest you call the radio show Saturday & talk to Skeeter & Robert. Let Skeeter know you'd like to bring it in for timing belt & valve maintenance work. Ask him how much $. Show is every Saturday 12 - 2PM on KSEV.

From a trouble shooting point of view I actually think Robert is the best. Only problem is his shop is in Katy. I've never been to his shop. 

My rig has low mileage (65K) and I'm assuming my valves were done when the head gasket recall was performed. I did not own vehicle when this was performed. 

A Google search indicates Toyota factory service manual suggests valve adjustment is every 60K miles or 36 months. The valve train design is such that if clearance get too tight the valve will not close completely & you then have a condition that could create a burned valve. Forums I read indicate the exhaust valve is most at risk. 

Suggestion...call Toyota corporate with VIN number in hand. I believe they should be able to produce date/mileage/dealership-shop where head gasket repair was done. Compare that info against where you are today (125K miles) to know how urgent you need to get valves checked. As you probably know burned valves means the cylinder heads have to come off for repair.  Also note you have what's called a non interference design motor. That means if your timing belt were to break it will not hurt the engine.    

Like Maineah said put the distributor in & let us know how it goes.          

Just heard back from Skeeters mechanic tonight,holy crap batman,3500 bucks? I've been given a quote of 2800 bucks for replacing the whole damn engine installed!

heres what he said:

"First I would like to perform a few additional test to verify what we are chasing, valve lash can cause a misfire however valve lash should not get loose unless a real problem is present, especially on the shim/cup type adjustments. These adjustments are not easily done and require “specialized” tools to perform this on the vehicle. Currently we do not possess the specialized “cheater” repair tools. This art has been long lost in the midst of hydraulic “nonadjustable” or newer designs with easier adjustable valve train. We can perform an on the car valve lash adjustment without the specialized tools, it will include running the lash measuring the current lash setting, removing the camshaft to measure the existing shim, ordering the correct shims need if they are still available (I would have to believe they are) the reassemble as needed. This would absolutely be the time to install a timing belt and related parts due to camshaft removal.

 

Additionally depending on the outcome of some additional testing, if we feel the engine is facing a valve or seat failure, cylinder head removal is needed for repair and the valve lash will be set by the machine shop on the bench.

 

Current time frame for initial testing will be performed within the 5 day period Skeeter mentioned before. Estimated cost for testing is $250.00

 

Exact pricing will be difficult to predict. I can guesstimate a minimum cost of repair.

 

Valve lash adjustment with camshaft removal and timing belt related components, minimum repair cost of $3500.00 + additionals

Cylinder head repair will be higher if needed.

Repair time will exceed 4 weeks

 

Please let me know if I have answered all the questions, if not, do not hesitate to call or email me directly here at the shop. I need to be the one that helps you with this repair, my advisors have been instructed to forward all inquiries back to me. Thank you for your understanding."

 

 First off,I didnt tell Skeeter I thought misfire was related to valve adjustment,I just wanted a quote of what a valve adjustment would cost me if I brought it there,doesnt sound like they have anyone there that has any experience in doing it.From what i've read on here,there is no reason to remove camshaft but it can be done that way,but that way is harder and more labor intensive.

[vrocrider]

My guess is for a variety of reasons Skeeter & crew are pricing the job so you go elsewhere or tackle it yourself.

Recognize it's great S is replying to your emails. I strongly suggest you call the show Saturday to make contact with at least 2 & possibly 3 of the best mechanics in Houston. Start a relationship that you can draw on as you continue on this journey.

Givens: 1.) no CEL light. 2.) Engine shows no performance loss when plug wire #4 pulled. All other cylinders show performance loss when plug wire pulled. 3.) Compression checks good on cylinder # four. If yes this eliminates burned tight valve/cylinder head issues 4.) Spark plug #4 showing fire when engine turned over. You can take an extra spark plug (leaving existing plug in engine block) & hook boot to plug with plug grounded against engine block & turn engine over to verify spark.  

If the above correct my next check would be to check if fuel getting to cylinder #4. Since you replaced injectors I would NOT suspect bad injector. My first check would be to verify the injector is being pulsed electrically. You could do this by putting a screw driver on injector body #4 and listening for clicking noise as engine is turned over. There are you tube videos showing this. Unfortunately this requires pulling intake plenum to access injector.       

There maybe some device that you could insert into the cylinder where plug goes that changes state when exposed to gasoline. Ask parts stores or Skeeter if they know of some thing.

Keep us updated.

 

  

Edited March 21, 2017 by vrocrider

[Maineah]

You can not have good compression with a tight valve. The "specialized tools" are not made of "unobtanium" here is the only one you can't buy at a hardware store. http://www.opentip.com/index.php?products_id=6673749&gclid=CJCjjOH459ICFZCFswod7pYDKA

[redskinman]

3 hours ago, vrocrider said:

My guess is for a variety of reasons Skeeter & crew are pricing the job so you go elsewhere or tackle it yourself.

Recognize it's great S is replying to your emails. I strongly suggest you call the show Saturday to make contact with at least 2 & possibly 3 of the best mechanics in Houston. Start a relationship that you can draw on as you continue on this journey.

Givens: 1.) no CEL light. 2.) Engine shows no performance loss when plug wire #4 pulled. All other cylinders show performance loss when plug wire pulled. 3.) Compression checks good on cylinder # four. If yes this eliminates burned tight valve/cylinder head issues 4.) Spark plug #4 showing fire when engine turned over. You can take an extra spark plug (leaving existing plug in engine block) & hook boot to plug with plug grounded against engine block & turn engine over to verify spark.  

If the above correct my next check would be to check if fuel getting to cylinder #4. Since you replaced injectors I would NOT suspect bad injector. My first check would be to verify the injector is being pulsed electrically. You could do this by putting a screw driver on injector body #4 and listening for clicking noise as engine is turned over. There are you tube videos showing this. Unfortunately this requires pulling intake plenum to access injector.       

There maybe some device that you could insert into the cylinder where plug goes that changes state when exposed to gasoline. Ask parts stores or Skeeter if they know of some thing.

Request: My distributor may still be off because I have high idle. Could you take a picture of where your distributor is bolted down?  When you adjusted to get idle down do you remember which direction you moved shaft?  

Thanks.

  

I can take a pic for you.When I put in distributor the first time with the high idle it was a little to the left of where the #1 plug goes on cap.It had high idle and when checked with timing light I could see it was way off.I pulled it out and moved it next tooth over to the right or clockwise and then it was perfect.I did not move the cap to change timing.I had marked where old one was bolted in around bolt with sharpie then put new one in the same spot.The pic will have to wait till I get home tonight.

[darrel]

I recently had a valve adjustment done at a Toyota dealership.  $613.59, that included 6 new exhaust valve shims.

Darrel

[redskinman]

44 minutes ago, darrel said:

I recently had a valve adjustment done at a Toyota dealership.  $613.59, that included 6 new exhaust valve shims.

Darrel

Ok thanks

[redskinman]

9 hours ago, vrocrider said:

My guess is for a variety of reasons Skeeter & crew are pricing the job so you go elsewhere or tackle it yourself.

Recognize it's great S is replying to your emails. I strongly suggest you call the show Saturday to make contact with at least 2 & possibly 3 of the best mechanics in Houston. Start a relationship that you can draw on as you continue on this journey.

Givens: 1.) no CEL light. 2.) Engine shows no performance loss when plug wire #4 pulled. All other cylinders show performance loss when plug wire pulled. 3.) Compression checks good on cylinder # four. If yes this eliminates burned tight valve/cylinder head issues 4.) Spark plug #4 showing fire when engine turned over. You can take an extra spark plug (leaving existing plug in engine block) & hook boot to plug with plug grounded against engine block & turn engine over to verify spark.  

If the above correct my next check would be to check if fuel getting to cylinder #4. Since you replaced injectors I would NOT suspect bad injector. My first check would be to verify the injector is being pulsed electrically. You could do this by putting a screw driver on injector body #4 and listening for clicking noise as engine is turned over. There are you tube videos showing this. Unfortunately this requires pulling intake plenum to access injector.       

There maybe some device that you could insert into the cylinder where plug goes that changes state when exposed to gasoline. Ask parts stores or Skeeter if they know of some thing.

Keep us updated.

 

  

I called Robert's shop a while ago,the guy who answered the phone said his name is Robert so I assume I was talking to THE Robert.Now he was a nice guy,lot more helpful then that dufus at Skeeters.

First I asked him if his shop could do the valve adjustment,long story short,yes.Said about 420 for labor plus any gaskets and the shims.

Then I told him about my misfire and he told me a couple of things to try,one I can do I dont know about the other one.He said to try the vacuum pump again,but this time dont hook it up thru the line from brake booster because that line has a check valve in it that would not give me a true reading.

Other thing was spray some carb cleaner into intake and if it smooths out that would mean the inj wasnt getting gas,by spraying the carb cleaner in there it gets to the injector I guess.But problem with that is this engine wont run when that hose from throttle body is disconnected,so he said something about raising up the air cleaner or disconnecting {I think he said airflow meter}which would let truck start with that connecting hose missing so I could spray some carb cleaner in the throttle body.How do I disconnect airflow meter?

[linda s]

I'm thinking this Robert guy sounds pretty cool. Maybe it's time to let him handle the problem. Some things are worth the money and hey he's already giving you a great price on the valve adjustment.

Linda S

[redskinman]

1 hour ago, linda s said:

I'm thinking this Robert guy sounds pretty cool. Maybe it's time to let him handle the problem. Some things are worth the money and hey he's already giving you a great price on the valve adjustment.

Linda S

LOL Linda are you tired of this thread or something?

[linda s]

1 minute ago, redskinman said:

LOL Linda are you tired of this thread or something?

Not at all. I just want you to have a good outcome and be able to finally enjoy your RV. I am amazed at the work you have already done trying to solve this problem.

Linda S

[redskinman]

6 minutes ago, linda s said:

Not at all. I just want you to have a good outcome and be able to finally enjoy your RV. I am amazed at the work you have already done trying to solve this problem.

Linda S

Well I for one am sick of this thread!

thanks

[linda s]

But we have gotten to know you from this thread. My favorite kind of member. Someone who is willing to get in there and learn everything he can about his special camper. I for one would have been breaking things and loosing it by now but you have just plugged away. Yeah let Robert have a go at it. Ask if you can watch him. Learning is a good thing. Happy to have you aboard.

Linda S

[darrel]

This has been a thread that I look forward to reading. I do hope that if you go for Robert he can fix the problem.

Also if "when" you come up with another problem,  come here first.

Darrel

[redskinman]

Thanks

I really wanted to try and figure out misfire before I took it to someone to do valves but I'm pretty much at the end of what I can do for this thing.Going to rent the vacuum pump again today and I will probably end up taking plenum off again to check out fuel injs.This engine is a pain in the butt to work on,having to take plenum off to get to injs is bad enough but then once you get there youve unhooked fuel lines,drained all your coolant so you cant do additional testing you need to do{at least I cant}

 

[Maineah]

Tip, if you disconnect the air flow meter the fuel pump will stop.

[Maineah]

You can remove the hose before the air flow meter and it will still run any thing beyond the meter it won't run. Spraying cab cleaner into the air flow meter and having the RPM's pick up will only tell you it's a tad lean and it most likely is at idle normally. You can to some extent find out what the fuel mix is with a DVM. On a low DC voltage connect the meter to the O2 sensor (usually the green wire) and ground if the voltage is low it is lean if the voltage is high it's rich. The range is only 0 to 1 volt 0 being lean 1 volt being rich. A normal reading will be all over the place and very active. I do not know how many sensors your engine has but being a V configured engine it will have at least two one for each bank. I agree with Linda if this guy is in your neighborhood let him have at it, he has probably been there before it is very hard to diagnose some thing hundreds of miles away.

[redskinman]

49 minutes ago, Maineah said:

You can remove the hose before the air flow meter and it will still run any thing beyond the meter it won't run. Spraying cab cleaner into the air flow meter and having the RPM's pick up will only tell you it's a tad lean and it most likely is at idle normally. You can to some extent find out what the fuel mix is with a DVM. On a low DC voltage connect the meter to the O2 sensor (usually the green wire) and ground if the voltage is low it is lean if the voltage is high it's rich. The range is only 0 to 1 volt 0 being lean 1 volt being rich. A normal reading will be all over the place and very active. I do not know how many sensors your engine has but being a V configured engine it will have at least two one for each bank. I agree with Linda if this guy is in your neighborhood let him have at it, he has probably been there before it is very hard to diagnose some thing hundreds of miles away.

I think we have a misunderstanding.He wanted me to spray carb cleaner directly into the throttle body,but when you remove the hose thats connected to throttle body the truck will not start.He was telling me to disconnect the airflow meter and that would let me remove that hose to spray carb cleaner into throttle body and it would start.

Robert is the other mechanic from the "Car Doctor"show that vrocrider meantioned,Skeeter being the other.Skeeter's shop is within a mile of my house but you can read my adventures with him,not taking anything back to that shop.Robert's shop is probably about 30 miles away but I will probably end up taking it to him.

[WME]

I've seen something like this a long time ago. It was a OHV engine.

It was too loose of an adjustment on a valve, like way too loose. Thats why I ask to do the pull the plug wires at a higher rpm. I just can not see  a way too loose valve on a shim and bucket setup. Unless there was a gross brain fart by some mechanic. 

[redskinman]

3 minutes ago, WME said:

I've seen something like this a long time ago. It was a OHV engine.

It was too loose of an adjustment on a valve, like way too loose. Thats why I ask to do the pull the plug wires at a higher rpm. I just can not see  a way too loose valve on a shim and bucket setup. Unless there was a gross brain fart by some mechanic. 

Yeah Robert said its not very common also,he didnt say this directly but I think hooking up the vacuum pump might also tell you theres a vacuum leak somewhere{if its not the valve}

[redskinman]

Well hooked up vacuum gauge tonight to 3 different vacuum lines and gauge held steady like it was supposed to,no erratic behavior.At this point I'm almost hoping I find something even if its really bad just to get to the bottom of this mystery.

Also tried to rev engine higher and pull wire off cap and got shocked so I said screw it lol.I had no one to rev engine for me and I was trying to do both things at once,didnt work

Edited March 23, 2017 by redskinman

[vrocrider]

13 minutes ago, redskinman said:

Well hooked up vacuum gauge tonight to 3 different vacuum lines and gauge held steady like it was supposed to,no erratic behavior.At this point I'm almost hoping I find something even if its really bad just to get to the bottom of this mystery.

Also tried to rev engine higher and pull wire off cap and got shocked so I said screw it lol.I had no one to rev engine for me and I was trying to do both things at once,didnt work

 

[redskinman]

5 minutes ago, vrocrider said:

 

???? lol,you didnt type anything

[vrocrider]

I'd try the carb cleaner spray trick Robert suggested. Jealous you called & immediately got him on the phone. Few times I called he's busy & has to call back.

You've struck gold with Robert. Most knowledgeable car guy I've heard on the radio & I've listened to quite a few. Seems like a really good person too.  

Thanks for pictures on distributor. I think I'm off a tooth because I'm at extreme adjustment on distributor to get to 10 degrees.  

[redskinman]

Was watching a show I recorded called Tech Garage this morning.The host was going over the old style distributor engines and how to read plugs etc.He said you can also use this handy tool,hook it up to your spark plug and it will tell you whats going on.It was an oscilloscope made by UEI.Too bad AutoZone doesnt have this in their rent a tool program 1750 bucks.

http://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/multimeter/uei-automotive-dual-channel-digital-storage-oscilloscope-graphing-multimeter-with-obd-ii-code-reader/94926_0_0

[Maineah]

 

4 hours ago, redskinman said:

Was watching a show I recorded called Tech Garage this morning.The host was going over the old style distributor engines and how to read plugs etc.He said you can also use this handy tool,hook it up to your spark plug and it will tell you whats going on.It was an oscilloscope made by UEI.Too bad AutoZone doesnt have this in their rent a tool program 1750 bucks.

http://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/multimeter/uei-automotive-dual-channel-digital-storage-oscilloscope-graphing-multimeter-with-obd-ii-code-

Do not waste your money your system does not support that scope it is not OBD2 possibly will read spark KV but no sensors. Divide the diameter of your crank pulley by 6 find your timing mark add that number to a spot CCW on the pulley mark it with chalk hook your timing light to the first plug wire on the driver side (#4) start the engine you should see the chalk mark it doesn't matter where it is as much as if you can see it. Spark test completed.

 

[redskinman]

21 hours ago, Maineah said:

 

Do not waste your money your system does not support that scope it is not OBD2 possibly will read spark KV but no sensors. Divide the diameter of your crank pulley by 6 find your timing mark add that number to a spot CCW on the pulley mark it with chalk hook your timing light to the first plug wire on the driver side (#4) start the engine you should see the chalk mark it doesn't matter where it is as much as if you can see it. Spark test completed.

 

Ha I wasnt going to buy it but if they rented it......