Gatorbob Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 After months of no problems, Now, At any given time my rv stalls. Twice this week when excelerating. (it's as if the fuel pump quit) R22E, Newly refurb 27 gal tank, Newly replaced sending unit. New pump in Dec 2012 and original pump stand. (Known pump check value defective, problem solved with accessory in-line check valve. This solved my last hard to start problem.) Plenty of fuel. New gas cap. tank Vent line is properly connected. No vaccuum sound when removing cap. Can not re start. The first time it happened, I called road side assistance after about 10 mins of trying to start. While waiting for road side assistance, I removed the gas cap, added 3 gals of gas from my spare can, went under the rv and tapped on the fuel line (took about ten mins). Get back in the cab and it started right up. Drove to a near by gas station and topped off with 10 gals. Drove it all week and could not duplicate the problem. Then on Saturday, crusing along it stalls again. Won't start. removed cap, Tank at 3/4 and added abount 1/2 gal from spare gas can, tapped on fuel lines. Would not start. Called road side assiatance. About 30 mins passes and all of a sudden it starts. ??? Any ideas my R22-E friends?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Since its running then just simple quits, and doesn't want to restart for a while. If it consistently is hard to start after the stall, I can give you a couple troubleshooting ideas. I assume from the symptoms that there are no vacuum leaks and all the hoses are OK.There would appear to be one of two problems, fuel or ignition. Do these immediately when it becomes hard to start.a) Fuel pump test - jumper the test connector and force the fuel pump to run. (under hood, right side fender). If it starts right up, you could have a problem with either the Mass Flow Sensor, the Fuel cutoff relay, or the ECM not telling the fuel pump to run.b ) Remove the vacuum hose shown in the photo.. Have someone try and start it while you spray "Carb Cleaner" in the port. You'll need to work the throttle and keep spraying. if it keeps running as long as you keep spraying, you have a fuel delivery problem. Possible problem: Fuel pump not running, fuel injectors not opening. fuel pressure not good. c) Basic check of Fuel Injector and Ignition. Remove the connector from the Mass Flow Sensor. Jumper the fuel pump on the test connector. Vehicle should start and idle. (won't run at high speeds but should idle). This tells you that the Fuel injectors are OK and the fuel system seems to be OK. The plug on the mass flow sensor has a small metal clip, use a small screwdriver or knife to move the clip back so you can remove the connector. The Throttle Position has a similar connector. d) Check the brown wires on the intake manifold bolts. Loosen and re-tighten the screw a couple times. These are the ground wires for the fuel injectors and these come from the ECM. if these grounds are intermittent or flaky, it will cause the problem your having.e) ECM relay could cause this, Fuel Injector resistor could cause this. You'll need a voltmeter to check these two items.f) You can test for fuel flow by disconnecting the fuel return hose at the fuel tank. put the return hose in a container, jump the test connector and place the key in the run position. The pump should run and you'll see fuel coming from the return line. I suspect at least a cup a minute would be OK.JOhn Mc88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 I'd do 'b )' first with either carb cleaner or 'Quick Start (ether)'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 Great information! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Use a small paperclip and bend it for the "test" connector. You need to turn the ignition to "on". You should be able to hear the pump running, you may need to get down and listen at the tank. You should also be able to hear the fuel flowing thru the regulator, again, listen carefully. The Fuel Cutoff relay is what controls the fuel pump. Its controlled by the ECM and the Mass flow sensor. The test jumper bypass a all this and forces the pump to run. ANOTHER THOUGHT - You installed a custom fuel tank. This probably required a modification to the fuel pump mount. Could that mount have broken and the pump is sucking air. Disconnect the fuel return line and place it in a container so you can see the fuel. if you see a lot of air bubbles (you shouldn't see any) then this could be your problem. JOhn Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 I was unable to locate the fuel pump relay. Passenger side or driver side?. Where is the Mass flow sensor, brown wires, fuel cut off relay and EMC? photo would be great. I'm a rookie. Custom fuel tank was installed at Sunrader Factory. Uses OME tank sender and pump. All of that was confirmed over the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Take a look at my post, there are photos of some of these items. redo the brown wires now, just loosen and retighten the bolt a couple times to dig in and get a good connection.Fuel pump cutoff relay is up behind the speaker on the passenger side dash. ECM is on the passenger side kick panel down near the floor.Check the fuel pump with a test jumper 1st. also carry a can of carb cleaner to test for that.Jhn Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 On a lot of EFI vehicles, the fuel pump will cycle for about three seconds after the ignition key is turned on, even if there is no attempt to start. Toyota does it a little different. IT must see the attempt to start, and more specifically, it must see air flow thru the Mass Flow Sensor before the Fuel Pump Cutoff Relay is energized to run the fuel pump.The Mass Flow sensor must detect air flow (the engine cranking). When it sees airflow, a set of contacts in the sensor energizes the Fuel Cutoff relay for about 3 seconds. If the engine starts successfully, the ECM sees the increase in RPM and tells the fuel pump cutoff relay to stay energized.Again, the jumper on the test connector bypasses all this and runs the fuel pump directly.John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyRV Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 I see a lot of items replaced and no mention of replacing the fuel filter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Shaggy - good point - Won't hurt to replace it.ALSO water in gas could do something weird like this. If you take the return line off and pump into a container, dump the fuel into a glass container and look at it. if you not sure what water would look like, put a couple teaspoons in the glass container, you'll see the water sinks to the bottom. JOhn Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 I see a lot of EFI stuff, does it have spark when it won't run?? Easy to check. The ignition ampifliers do go out due to heat and age some times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 Lots of Good stuff. I doubt its the fuel filters. Both the pump and in-line filter were just replaced and the tank was spotless in side and out. I located the brown wires. they were tight, but I removed them and cleaned the contact points any way. Got my fuel from a relible souce, 89 octane with a little cleaner in it. The engine runs beautifully otherwise. The stall problem is so random, and I'm always in the worst place when it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 You should get a fuel pressure guage. I have a feeling you literally have a leak in the system whether its atthr rail or under and the.pressure drop causes shut offby the ecm. Try both testing the pressure to see if it varies or drops and also when it stalls disconnect the battery and rconnect. A leak under pressure is only going to show hen running...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 Or.... Does a truck with a 27 gallon tank use a differeng fuel pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 Wouldn't a fuel leak smell???? I've tried flooring the gas pedal when trying to start only to get a little ignition. Sometimes it will try to start, run very rough for a few seconds then die. This is what makes me think it is fuel pressure related. The fuel pump was new when I bought it in December 2012. It was working in very harsh, contaminated tank conditions for a very brief moment. The pump is a standard after market. The check valve assembly does not work. I installed an in-line check valve just after the factory check valve and that completely solved my other hard to start mystery. Right now, it starts on the first crank and purrs like a kitten. This seems like there's a "circuit breaker" in the system that opens, "cools off" then closes 20-30 mins later. I recalled having a stall problem several months ago after I filled the tank. Brought it back to the shop who was working on it and we could not duplicate the problem. While replacing the gauge sending unit, we found the tank vent line was not connected to the fill neck. That explained why gas would spill on my feet when filling the tank. BTW the brand new sending unit just would not work for no apparent reason. I bought a used unit and it worked fine. For the most part, it gives me a good idea of whats in the tank but it's not 100% accurate. We disabled the low gas light as it would come on at 1/4 tank. After removing the brand new sending unit, I tested it and it appeared to be working fine. I paid $150, I'll sell it for the best offer. It was only in the tank for about 2 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 12 Months of work Photos. Before and After. Notice the date on the license plate. This had been sitting in a field since 1998. Gotta have a vision! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 New under the hood photos. see anything out of place? Here is my ECM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 Looks gud.From your description, it could be the cutoff relay. Again, if it fails and will not start, open the hood real quick, install the trusty paperclip jumper and see if it starts. Play with this before hand so you know where to put the jumper. .As for fuel pressure, there is nowhere to test it. I would recommend to anyone who has the fuel rail removed, drill a hole in the front of the rail and tap it for 1/8 pipe thread. Then install a plug or buy a shrader valve or fitting and screw it into the hole. This will allow you to hook up a pressure gauge or test fixture at a future date. John mc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 WME, Where is the ignition Amplifier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 follow the center wire from your distributor. its on the drivers side fender. JOhn Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Okay, who hid the Relay Assy, Circuit Opening for EFI ? #85910A . Its not behind or above the ECM. I'm slowly replacing parts that could be causing the Mystery Stall. (Just replaced ignition coil easy and only $30. ). Any photos of that John Mc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Mine is bolted to the passenger side door pillar frame, Had to remove the speaker (to the right of the glove box) to get to it. Using the fuel pump test jumper will help in troubleshooting vs buying stuff you may not need. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 GOT THAT SOB! That was worse than working on the Volvo. Would love to do the pump jumper test but got to wait for the problem again. These parts are 27 years old. One other thing. Can you show me a photo of the E1 and TE1 connections so I can read the codes(if any) Pretty Please!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 One other thing, Could you photo where that Data Link Connector one is to do the jumper test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 This is the same connector you use for the fuel jumper. http://autorepair.about.com/library/ts/obd-i/bl-dtcs-53.htm It should be on the passenger side fender, near that fuse boxJohn Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 I wish I had a connection that looked like that. Nothing near the fuse box on the drivers side. 1986. I'll send more photos later of the area under the hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 See your post #17, in picture #5. The connector is the larger of the two round yellow plugs on the inner fender by the AFM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Look around, its there. You may not recognize it with the little cover closed. Mine is behind the fuse panel on the passenger side fender. Look carefully, the cover is closed Pop the cover open and this is what it looks like. JOhn Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto (for sale) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 87 is a change over year for the connector location. 86 and earlier its on the drivers side. 87 and later is on the passanger side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 JOhn Mc , We have very different looking systems. I don't have that connection. My MFG date is July 86. The small black box on the drivers side is just a two wire connection. Ya Baby, What is the AFM? Driver side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 JOhn Mc , We have very different looking systems. I don't have that connection. My MFG date is July 86. The small black box on the drivers side is just a two wire connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 You should have this same connector. It may be on the drivers side fender. Look around in front of the grill area also. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto (for sale) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 A fuel leak at 35 PSI would be a big one real fast. The fuel pressure is not tracked by the ECU. When you floor the gas while cranking it shuts off the injectors (clear flood mode). There is no guessing with fuel pressure it has to be checked with a fuel pressure gauge "lots of gas does not cut it" the pressure needs to be around 35 PSI, Your description sounds more like a ign module. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 You should have this same connector. It may be on the drivers side fender. Look around in front of the grill area also. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto (for sale) The lid is the size of a match book and says "Diagnostic connector" on the top it's there you just haven't found it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorbob Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 Just found this. From: How To Keep Your Toyota Pick Up Alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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