An FYI on head bolts in 22 RE

[tlava]

Hi All--

Been emailing Ted and engbldrs: apparently it is OK to reuse the 22 RE head bolts: the only concerns about stretching are with the "3VZE, any using torque to yield" according to him.

[MontanaChinook]

Yeah for some reason back about four years ago when I was working with him, I swear he told me to never reuse the head bolts. This was on a 22R. But I've since seen emails from him saying it's fine. So I guess I just remembered wrong.

I replaced mine on my 20R when I did the headgasket anyway. The ones on the exhuast side were a bit corroded. Probably would have been fine, but I just ordered new ones before I even started the job. I hate getting to where I'm ready to put it all back together, and can't because there are more parts I need to order...

[tlava]

I found some from a company called Low Range Offroad: they claim the head bolts will fit the early model 22 RE (which I guess is the same head as the 22 R for that year?); I was worried because Ted said the old "long style" head bolts were no longer available... so hopefully these are the right ones.

link if interested:

http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php/ter-hbk900.html

[tlava]

Oops--Tod claims these head bolts (link above) are too short: "That head bolt part number is Rock Products I believe, if so, those bolts fit the lower deck 1985 to 1995 22R and 22RE engines only, they are too short for the early engine design with a serious risk of stripping out if used."

Anyone know of a source for pre-85 ('84, in my case) 22 RE head bolts?

[5Toyota]

WONDER IF THE OLDER 20R BOLTS WOULD BE THE SAME. yes aNY TORQUE TO YIELD HEAD BOLTS ARE A THROW AWAY ONE USE AS FAR AS I KNOW BECAUSE I AM THINKING THEY STRETCH. BUT ON THE 20R OR 22R E IF THE BOLTS WERE IN GOOD SHAPE NEVER HEARD OF A PROBLEM IN THE OLD DAYS WITH THE FACT TOYOTA HEAD GASKET WE WERE TOLD TO DRIVE IT 1000 MILES AND RETORQUE THE HEAD I DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE GASKETS TO DAY. i DO KNOW THE OLD FELPRO BILLED AS PERMATORQUE AND SO MARKED WAS A DUD WOULD BLOW FOR NO REASON AVERAGE ABOUT TWO YEARS IS ALL THE MEC TOLD ME. BOUGHT A USED 20r CAR HAD ONE ON IT BLEW PUT ON A TOYOTA ONE 15 YEARS NO MORE PROBLEM

[linda s]

Buy them from Toyota.

http://www.toyotapartszone.com/oem/toyota~bolt~for~cylinder~head~set~90910-02058.html

Linda S

[MontanaChinook]

Yep, I bought mine for my 20R from Toyota.

Spendy....but what are you going to do.

I get a discount at the dealership since I go there so much. We're lucky to have really good parts guys at the local dealership. I've had to find enough parts for my trucks that with a lot of things I just go straight there rather than searching endlessly on the Internet for parts. Toyota knows what you need! Usually...

I'm not sure why a lot of people don't even consider the dealership, or only consider it as a last resort.

I guess I've got a pretty good feel at this point for what sort of stuff it's better to just go straight to Toyota for.

[tlava]

Thanks! I went onto a couple OEM sites, and could not find head bolts listed---not sure how you do it, Linda!

In any case, maybe I don't have to worry about the bolts...

If I have my current head rebuilt Hi-Pro (I mean my Toy engine head) by engbldrs, the gaskets they send should be as good as the dealer OEM, right?

I'm worried about having a mechanic unfamiliar with the 22 RE work on it, since there are "hidden" fasteners--the 12 MM in the oil under the cam timing gear, a long allen bolt through the T-stat housing, apparently some hard-to-get-to tubes on brackets at the back of the head that have to be removed to get the head off, and lining up of the notched distributor gear at 11:00 rather than 12:00, etc. Are my fears unfounded? I'd like to find a mechanic even within 100 miles or so of me of is familiar with the old Toy engines, but so far no leads...

I haven't actually totally blown the gasket yet I don't think, no water in the oil but lots of other signs--coolant level somewhat down in res tank, sounds a bit like a diesel when first starting, some white smoke and a lot of moisture dripping after warm up, and a slight stutter (maybe unrelated), though otherwise runs well..

Rather than getting on the road to FL and risking a complete blow, I would like to pre-empt, and would consider tackling it myself though the only head I've done in past were a Volvo Penta marine engine (80s) and a 73 Ford straight six--totally different worlds...and been awhile, and too much I don't know, too much stuff to come off, etc--+ torque specs, etc, and I don't even have a torque wrench anymore and besides it is getting cold!

Anyone out there near me who would be willing to work on this let me know--I'd be glad to serve as helper and of course pay for your time, etc.

[MontanaChinook]

Enginebuilder knows what he's doing, and what gaskets are as good as OEM. I'd trust him fully.

Yes your fears are a bit unfounded. Any respectable mechanic can work on just about any vehicle, and a 22RE is not a complicated engine. There's a trick and a hidden bolt or twelve and hard to get to stuff in every engine out there. Standard operating. If a mechanic misses that bolt or can't get a hard-to-get-to hose or something off, they have no business working on ANY vehicle.

Diesel sound shouldn't have anything to do with the headgasket. Would likely have to do with valves out of adjustment or a bad timing chain slapping against the timing cover until oil pressure builds up. Do the timing chain while you're in there...or at least be sure to look at it, and be prepared for it needing to be replaced.

You sure you see white smoke? Liquid dripping out the tailpipe is completely normal.

Not saying you don't have a bad head gasket, and I can't say that having a fresh one isn't a good idea. But don't misdiagnose something and get all hung up and stuck thinking its bad no matter how much the facts tell you it isn't...

Could be you just need a valve adjustment. But if the timing chain is bad, you'll be replacing the head gasket along with it anyway. Another sound that could sound a little diesel-ish is a bad exhaust manifold gasket.

[tlava]

Just seemed to shake the vehicle a bit when cold. I just did a valve adjust, and didn't notice this; the shaking for the first time last time I started it, but only while cold. White smoke, yes--not a lot of it, but noticeable with pressure on the pedal after warm up.

Then the drawdown on the reserve coolant tank.

Maybe I should get the chemical test to be sure....

I'm going to check again tomorrow; the symptoms are very similar to those I had with My Nissan V6 SR, and eventually (about 2k later) the HG blew completely.

Also found out I need a 110AH battery to power the Atwood furnace I installed--well, at 30,000 BTU, overkill, I know, but a good deal, I thought, on GL at $200 shipping included--except that now I have to spend $260 on the battery! c'est la vie.....

[MontanaChinook]

You may be right, then. If nothing else, on these 22R/RE and 20R engines, having fresh head gaskets and timing chains is good thing.

[5Toyota]

if YOU ARE GETTING WHITE SMOKE SMELL IT I CAN ALL BUT GUARANTY IT IS ANTIFREEZE AND DRAINED OIL WILL HAVE WHITE CREAM GUNK IN IT FROM ANTIFREEZE. BEEN THERE AND FIXED THAT. yOU SHOULD MAYBE DO A COOLING SYSTEM PREASSURE TEST . A LITTLE PUMP IS PUT ON THE RADITER IF THE GAGE DROUPS YOU MAY HAVE A PROUBLEM. MYN HAD ANTIFREEZE COMING OUT OF THE PLUG HOLES BLOWN ALL THE WAY ON TWO CYCL FIXED IT MYSELF USED FOR FIFTEEN YEARS AFTER.

[tlava]

THanks--I did try to smell it, but just smells like exhaust to my untrained nose.... no water in the oil, at least not the last time I checked. Same happened with my Nissan--never did get oil in the water until the last, when it blew me off road....

As for the timing chain, on a previous thead it was noted that that is more or less a separate job, and lot more $$--almost twice as much, according to some--than just doing the HG--so trying to avoid that one... though it's true you're part way there to get to the head....

If I dare try to pull it myself--once the bolts are out and other stuff off, could there be problems lifting it off? it was a little cumbersome just removing the valve cover, so I'm imagining the head might be a bit tough..

Also wondering if sealant has to go all around, or just around the timing chain housing but the head gasket put on dry--I seem to recall using hi-temp sealant or gasket maker last time I did this ...(not on this engine)-- and what the torque specs are, what the torque sequence is, etc.

If anyone know a good link to a step-by-step, with necessary specs, much appreciated

The '73 Ford PU was a piece of cake--could almost stand inside the engine compartment, as I recall...

What I'd really like to do is convert a mini cooper wagon to an RV...

thanks again folks for all your responses.

[MontanaChinook]

Some of these questions, if you're asking them, means you need to get a Factory Service Manual.

I got my head off after removing the exhaust manifold, but with the intake still on. By myself. But I have no problem with the valve cover...can't weigh more than a couple pounds...

But the head is heavy.

Timing chain...only a matter of if it needs it. You'll be able to see. Mine was fine. But I've got a dual row chain, and they last a lot longer.

[tlava]

Yours is a 20R or 22R... yes, VC not heavy, just a tad awkward putting it back on to avoid scraping towers.

Yes I guess I should get a shop manual from Toyota?

I looked today; no water in oil, but the white smoke starts after a couple minutes, and the res. tank is down from near the full mark, where I topped it after replacing radiator, etc, and to the low mark, so it seems the coolant going somewhere, unless normal for awhile after changing out rad, water pump, etc? I've only driven it about 10 miles, since, but have let it idle for long periods (maybe half an hour)

[Derek up North]

1985 Factory Service Manual FREE here:-

https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B_1LbTxQDmlVYmRkZTE2YjItODUzYS00NDUxLTk0ODUtYTYxYjZiYjk4ZTA5&export=download

[5Toyota]

get the cooling system preassure checked when i did that the guage would drop. the tool is a little hand pump that goes on the raditor any shop worth being open should have one will show if it is losing pressure then you have a problem. and yes i neverwork with out a shop book .even if you hire it done reading up helps you understand more when i did my 20r wagen took two people one on eash side . and you dont want the chain to get out of place. if you dont have a 100,000 miles on it i would not worry about changing the chain myself

[fred heath]

A quick and easy test for water in the oil:

Allow engine to reach operating temperature.

Pull the dipstick and allow a couple of drops of oil to fall onto the hot exhaust manifold.

If it only smokes your oil is fine.

If it "sizzles" you have water in the oil.

[MontanaChinook]

How many miles are on it? I guess we should have gotten that out of the way right up front. I agree with 5Toyota; the chain sort of depends on how many miles you have on it. Also how well-maintained it's been...but a lot depends on miles. If you're over 100,000, I wouldn't go as far in as the headgasket and not do the timing chain.

A single row chain may not break until 150,000 miles or more, if you've been good with oil changes. But I had one break at 120,000. If that happens, consider yourself lucky, because you'll be getting a nice new rebuilt engine!

[tlava]

Hi all

thanks again for all the replies; really appreciate that/

\\

Just to clarify a few things:

SO it would take 2 people just to get the head out clean?

it is possible that there would be water in the oil and not be visible?

It has only 75k, and has been well maintained, I believe

the pressure test would provide same results as the chemical test, or would both be necessary?

I was thinking of having the head rebuilt by Engbldrs to hi-pro specs (OS valves and RV street cam): Ted cliams I can get about a 2-3 percent increase in HP with this, and even more if I add a 2" exhast. Should I bother, or just let a shop stick on a new HG and be done w/it.

as for a rebuild--if I ever need that, I was thinking of replacing with a later model 22re ('85 or later) rather than an '84, since the later ones are more powerful and less problematic as far as parts, etc, and Ted claims that it is all the same as for reinstallation.....

your thoughts?

[MontanaChinook]

I got the head out myself. So it depends. Two people can't hurt, that's for sure. But no, it doesn't take two people. I weigh 150. I got it out myself.

A rebuilt head from Ted could not possibly be a bad thing. It's just up to you how far you want to go with this. This kind of stuff really comes down to personal preference. If Ted had rebuilt 20R heads, I probably would have bought one. But I just had the machine shop resurface, clean and pressure test it. Good enough...

There could be a small amount of water in the oil and not be visible. My head gasket leak was EXTERNAL. Coolant running down the side of my engine. No coolant in the oil.

I'm not aware of parts troubles for 84 22REs, so I can't speak to that.

But yeah...putting an 85 22RE into a truck that came with an 84 22RE should be no more work than taking your own engine out and putting the same one back in. Which is to say not easy...but no harder.

Only issue I could see is how different the emissions systems can be, even with the same year vehicles. You've got canada emissions, California emissions, etc. and the emissions is the only difficult part of getting an engine back in. I mean the engine is a pain...it's huge and heavy and awkward. But you can easily see what goes where. Vacuum hoses on the other hand...tiny and easy to move around and work with. But a serious mess if you didn't do a ton of work labeling and taking photos up front.

But yes, basically that info is correct.