Greetings from a newbie DIYer, insulation questions

[moroza]

Hi all! I stumbled upon this site quite recently, though I've been planning a DIY motorhome on a Toyota chassis for about a year now. I used to live out of a BMW wagon, but somewhere between having to sleep with my contact lens case to keep it from freezing, to getting stuck on a gently sloped, slightly slushy driveway, it became bleeding obvious that the vehicle and its (non-)amenities were restricting where I could go and stay. But I got hooked on the vehicle-dwelling lifestyle in general, so I decided to do it right.

Here's the wagon, which was a down-to-sheetmetal restomod project over a year or so back in its day:

After months of intensive searching, I bought myself a 1981 Toyota 4x4 longbed, and here I am deep in drawing up blueprints for building my own motorhome on the back:

Why DIY when I can find a Dolphin or Chinook, a factory 4x4 if I look hard enough, or convert to 4x4 with some wrenches and a welder? Cost on one hand, fussiness on the other, and "for the fun of it" thrown in for good measure. My plans are to make it just long enough to sleep, just tall enough to sit up, just wide enough to fit a bed, a heating, and a cooking stove. It's more of a "life-box" than a motor home, but living out the back of a station wagon gave me perspective on just how much space I really need. Turns out it's not a lot, less than even the smallest commercially available RV. Less space means less weight and aerodynamic drag, which I'd be happy to transfer into improved fuel economy, given that I drove about 20k miles in the first 12 months of car-camping. I've also increasingly found myself going off-road places where a big RV simply wouldn't fit. Making a 3-point turn on a logging road is hard enough with a small pickup!

Seems that most people on here have Sunraders, Chinooks, Winnebagos... mostly big and factory-made stuff. Is there anyone here who's built their own on a cab/chassis platform?

How much and what kind of thermal insulation do the commercial motorhomes have, and how satisfactory do you find it? I'm thinking that 3.5" (the width of a 2x4) of rigid foam, maybe a bit more on the roof, and some heavy curtains over the cab windows, ought to be enough? My heat source is going to be a tiny woodstove, either a conventional one, or a rocket stove. I'd like to keep it above visible-breath temperature inside when it's as low as -30 outside (I'm definitely not a snowbird ). I hear a lot about propane heaters... is anyone here using a wood-fired stove?

[Derek up North]

You can start with this:-

http://thesupercamper.blogspot.com/2006/09/super-camper-inspiration-concept-and.html

I wouldn't use a woodstove. You might wake up one day, dead! I'd rather double up on the insulation and you might be amazed at how much body heat will keep a small volume warm. A small dog also makes an excellent 'hot water bottle'!

[Dolphinite no longer here]

Moroza,

Your thought about using a woodstove for heat is a fine idea. I think I brought this idea up about a year ago and the prevailing thread was that anyone would be crazy to use a woodstove in a Toyhome. When I worked as a shipwright building and repairing boats in Alaska, wood stoves were common and still are to a certain extent. The fuel is often free or very cheap, the heat output is very good and very dry (good on a boat, probably good on a Toyhome, too) and, if the installation is up to par, there shouldn't be any problems. There are several small stoves for sale if you search around on the internet, that are just right for a camper. The biggest drawback to this whole scene is that you don't need much of a stove to heat a Toyhome so they tend to be small. This, of course, means that the firebox is small and, consequently, the pieces of wood are small so that to get an even heat overnight means that you have to add fuel once or maybe twice depending on the outside temperature. Not a big deal but something to think about.

I've lived aboard two boats with about the same interior volume as my '85 Dolphin and I installed wood stoves in both of them. They worked great through five of Juneau, Alaska's Winters. Some of the interior layouts of Toyhomes make it difficult to find a good, safe place for a wood stove but with some imagination you can usually pull it off.

Email me direct if you want more specific ideas on how to install one. Oh, and good luck...

John

[Derek up North]

But from his description, his setup will be maybe 1/4 of the volume of a Dolphin. With good insulation, you could almost heat that with a candle.

[Maineah]

Propane is a lot easier to carry then a cord of wood. There is a small propane boat heater that would work great it is vented with a small stack you can control it's output not cheap but no worse then a camper heater. It has no moving parts no fan or complex controls. Properly insulated you would not need much heat I camp some times in freezing weather if I'm some where I can plug in a 1,000 watt heater keeps mine warm. I don't like to run the heater it's too loud. Be careful building your project weight adds up fast if you are using a wood frame ripping 2X4's in half saves a lot of weight and interior space, 1/4 plywood is structurally sound because of the opposed plies and styrofoam @ 11/2 is around R6 it is a small space insulation is not a real big deal 11/2 is more then enough space for insulation for that small footage most of the old MH were not that well insulated. Your project truck is as short a Toyota pickup frame as they make so it's going to be an issue to keep your weight as far forward as you can. Check the GVW sticker on the door and that will give you an ideal on how much you can pile on the frame.

[moroza]

Derek, you appear to be from Canada... whereabouts, and how adequate have you found the insulation of whatever MH you've got? I drove up to Inuvik, NT in my wagon summer '10, but that was in late June and mostly t-shirt weather. I used to live in southern Manitoba and want to build something adequate for its winters, or Yukon which is apparently not any colder (-30C). I don't expect to go up to the tundra in the winter, but who knows... no practical purpose, but then neither was the arctic expedition in the first place, and I'd get a real big kick out of comfortably sipping tea in a homemade box with a -50 polar night outside...

Dolphinite, what kind and how thick insulation did your boats have? I'm not settled on a woodstove design, choosing between a conventional castiron airtight and a DIY "rocket stove". The latter are typically designed with a sort of vertical feed tube, which burns the bottom of the sticks that you, er, stick in it, burning them in a horizontal burn tunnel, such that the fuel feeds itself steadily as its bottom combusts.

I'm not sure how big a Dolphin is, but the dimensions I'm working with are 125cm height x 140cm width x 240cm length excluding the cab (all interior dimensions). 89mm (3.5") rigid foam everywhere except the cab, including full-thickness door and window shutters, and maybe more for the roof. Cab gets whatever I can fit on the floor, firewall, inside doors, and temporarily over the glass. Spray foam in whatever nooks and crannies remain. With how tiny the space is, versus how cold I expect it to survive in, I really have no idea what to expect from the insulation, whether it's overkill or merely adequate, or not enough...?

Maineah, I'm being very cautious about weight, though the project plans include a wheelbase stretch courtesy of uprated Ford springs, which will also increase my GVW rating, and a diesel engine swap to replace the 20R. I'm shooting for a loaded weight of about 4000-4500lb. The truck weighs a bit over 3000 with the bed. Sound realistic? The wheelbase stretch gives me 28cm, almost a foot more room in front of the wheels, enough to fit a 50cm side door and a small stove between the cab and one wheel well. I'm going to move the box back the same distance, so as not to decrease departure angle (this is a 4x4 after all). I'm having some trouble reading what you say about R-values...

Edited March 14, 2012 by moroza

[Derek up North]

I'm just North of Montreal and haven't tested the insulation in Winter. All I know is that there's not much and plenty of drafts to go with it.

Typically, a Dolphin is 6'-2" high, 80" wide, both inside dimensions. Overall length (outside) is 21' but I've never measured from the cab back, but it's way longer than you plan!!

BTW, that looks like you did a nice job on the BMW.

[moroza]

Typically, a Dolphin is 6'-2" high, 80" wide, both inside dimensions. Overall length (outside) is 21' but I've never measured from the cab back, but it's way longer than you plan!!

Assuming a cab-rear bumper length of 4 meters, that's about 3.6 times the volume and 2.7 times the surface area of my box.

BTW, that looks like you did a nice job on the BMW.

Thanks! That car took 9 months to move on its own power and another 3 before I started living in it. That experience is the only reason I feel remotely confident in my ability to build a camper truck. Here's more of the BMW.

[Derek up North]

I'm thinking your 4m (13ft) length is very conservative. And there's still the volume/surface area of the bunk/overcab to be added.

You seem to be very 'metric'. Are you in the GWN too?

[mulwyk]

What a great project! Some notes:

It doesn't take much insulation because the space is so small, 1/2" or 3/4" insulation seems to be typical on Toyota motorhomes. My Sunrader had scrap pieces of 1/2" headliner foam in the walls.

Keeping it light will be your big challange. House type construction with 2x4's will get too heavy. I'd suggest 1x2's with 1/4" plywood fiberglassed on the outside. Make the roof curved rather than flat.

I've also lived with a boat wood heater. We found it was too much heat for a small space when burning wood and very difficult to regulate. We ended up burning a few charcoal bricketts at a time, which seemed about right.

Now and then you'll see homemade motorhomes done in gypsy wagon style...very cute.

[Derek up North]

I'm guessing you don't want something like this:-

http://1.bp.blogspot...-026-lo-res.jpg

If you look here you might get some construction ideas. Check the builder's photos.

http://www.glen-l.co...lderphotos.html

[Maineah]

Derek, you appear to be from Canada... whereabouts, and how adequate have you found the insulation of whatever MH you've got? I drove up to Inuvik, NT in my wagon summer '10, but that was in late June and mostly t-shirt weather. I used to live in southern Manitoba and want to build something adequate for its winters, or Yukon which is apparently not any colder (-30C). I don't expect to go up to the tundra in the winter, but who knows... no practical purpose, but then neither was the arctic expedition in the first place, and I'd get a real big kick out of comfortably sipping tea in a homemade box with a -50 polar night outside...

Dolphinite, what kind and how thick insulation did your boats have? I'm not settled on a woodstove design, choosing between a conventional castiron airtight and a DIY "rocket stove". The latter are typically designed with a sort of vertical feed tube, which burns the bottom of the sticks that you, er, stick in it, burning them in a horizontal burn tunnel, such that the fuel feeds itself steadily as its bottom combusts.

I'm not sure how big a Dolphin is, but the dimensions I'm working with are 125cm height x 140cm width x 240cm length excluding the cab (all interior dimensions). 89mm (3.5") rigid foam everywhere except the cab, including full-thickness door and window shutters, and maybe more for the roof. Cab gets whatever I can fit on the floor, firewall, inside doors, and temporarily over the glass. Spray foam in whatever nooks and crannies remain. With how tiny the space is, versus how cold I expect it to survive in, I really have no idea what to expect from the insulation, whether it's overkill or merely adequate, or not enough...?

Maineah, I'm being very cautious about weight, though the project plans include a wheelbase stretch courtesy of uprated Ford springs, which will also increase my GVW rating, and a diesel engine swap to replace the 20R. I'm shooting for a loaded weight of about 4000-4500lb. The truck weighs a bit over 3000 with the bed. Sound realistic? The wheelbase stretch gives me 28cm, almost a foot more room in front of the wheels, enough to fit a 50cm side door and a small stove between the cab and one wheel well. I'm going to move the box back the same distance, so as not to decrease departure angle (this is a 4x4 after all). I'm having some trouble reading what you say about R-values...

I have found that fiberglass will absorb water that is why I suggested the hard foam stuff it's very light and the"R" (insulating) value is high enough for what you are trying to do and it comes in various thicknesses to fit between your studs and the walls. Be careful with your GVW it's more about the axles then the springs but from the sound of what you are doing you'll be fine just think weight it will save you fuel and mechanical problems. A diesel would be great what have got in mind for an engine? The only Toyota that would work for you is the turbo charged one the non turbo would not be enough power they were like only 62 HP the turbo unit was about the same as the 22RE

[moroza]

I'm thinking your 4m (13ft) length is very conservative. And there's still the volume/surface area of the bunk/overcab to be added.

You seem to be very 'metric'.

I much prefer metric when it's not inconvenient (tire diameters, for instance).

Are you in the GWN too?

No, but I've spent some recent time traveling and worktrading in BC and Yukon, and lived in Manitoba about 20 years ago.

What a great project! Some notes:

It doesn't take much insulation because the space is so small, 1/2" or 3/4" insulation seems to be typical on Toyota motorhomes. My Sunrader had scrap pieces of 1/2" headliner foam in the walls.

Keeping it light will be your big challange. House type construction with 2x4's will get too heavy. I'd suggest 1x2's with 1/4" plywood fiberglassed on the outside. Make the roof curved rather than flat.

I've also lived with a boat wood heater. We found it was too much heat for a small space when burning wood and very difficult to regulate. We ended up burning a few charcoal bricketts at a time, which seemed about right.

Now and then you'll see homemade motorhomes done in gypsy wagon style...very cute.

Thanks, that's good to know about the heater. My theory is that with heavy insulation, I can use the stove in bursts rather than continuously. Light a fire and quickly get the whole space kiln-like, then choke off the fire and open ventilation to lower the air temp to the upper limit of Comfortable. The insulation should help it remain above the lower limit of Comfortable for a while, without lighting the fire again.

I did some weight calculations - basically summed up the total volumes of dimensional lumber and plywood, multiplied by the densities - and got something like 200 pounds for the frame (2x4's with some 4x4's) and 450 pounds for plywood inside and out. I've since pared down the plywood thicknesses, but haven't done more recent analyses. If I ever lay the truck on its side or find myself in a colder weather than I reckoned on, I'll be glad for having overbuilt the box. Since I can, I am.

Round roofs look much better (from here)...

...but don't work as well for cargo on the roof, and I want to keep the frontal area as small as the dimensions allow.

I'm guessing you don't want something like this:-

http://1.bp.blogspot...-026-lo-res.jpg

If you look here you might get some construction ideas. Check the builder's photos.

http://www.glen-l.co...lderphotos.html

Thanks for the links, that's a good bit of reading to do. I've read through the Super Camper blog and gleaned a few ideas from it regarding construction. Not so much design, though - I call my project a "motor home", but it's a size class below the smallest vehicles that are typically called that, commercial and DIY builds alike.

I have found that fiberglass will absorb water that is why I suggested the hard foam stuff it's very light and the"R" (insulating) value is high enough for what you are trying to do and it comes in various thicknesses to fit between your studs and the walls. Be careful with your GVW it's more about the axles then the springs but from the sound of what you are doing you'll be fine just think weight it will save you fuel and mechanical problems. A diesel would be great what have got in mind for an engine? The only Toyota that would work for you is the turbo charged one the non turbo would not be enough power they were like only 62 HP the turbo unit was about the same as the 22RE

That's a good point about the axles. My VIN plate says: vehicle rating is 4550, but the axle ratings of 2630 and 3000 add up to half a ton more . The manual says the payload on top of the ~200 bed is 1100, which point is about when it starts riding on the bumpstops, but there's inconsistencies with that number too. If the axle somehow turns out to not suffice, keeps eating wheelbearings or whatnot, there are plenty of stronger axles that either bolt right up or won't take much work to.

Haven't decided on a diesel, just compiled a lot of data and come to some preferences. Still doing homework regarding: Isuzu 4JB1T, Volkswagen 1Z or AHU (probably converted to mechanical control), Toyota 2L-2T, 1KZ.

Edited March 15, 2012 by moroza

[Maineah]

I much prefer metric when it's not inconvenient (tire diameters, for instance).

No, but I've spent some recent time traveling and worktrading in BC and Yukon, and lived in Manitoba about 20 years ago.

Thanks, that's good to know about the heater. My theory is that with heavy insulation, I can use the stove in bursts rather than continuously. Light a fire and quickly get the whole space kiln-like, then choke off the fire and open ventilation to lower the air temp to the upper limit of Comfortable. The insulation should help it remain above the lower limit of Comfortable for a while, without lighting the fire again.

I did some weight calculations - basically summed up the total volumes of dimensional lumber and plywood, multiplied by the densities - and got something like 200 pounds for the frame (2x4's with some 4x4's) and 450 pounds for plywood inside and out. I've since pared down the plywood thicknesses, but haven't done more recent analyses. If I ever lay the truck on its side or find myself in a colder weather than I reckoned on, I'll be glad for having overbuilt the box. Since I can, I am.

Round roofs look much better (from here)...

...but don't work as well for cargo on the roof, and I want to keep the frontal area as small as the dimensions allow.

Thanks for the links, that's a good bit of reading to do. I've read through the Super Camper blog and gleaned a few ideas from it regarding construction. Not so much design, though - I call my project a "motor home", but it's a size class below the smallest vehicles that are typically called that, commercial and DIY builds alike.

That's a good point about the axles. My VIN plate says: vehicle rating is 4550, but the axle ratings of 2630 and 3000 add up to half a ton more . The manual says the payload on top of the ~200 bed is 1100, which point is about when it starts riding on the bumpstops, but there's inconsistencies with that number too. If the axle somehow turns out to not suffice, keeps eating wheelbearings or whatnot, there are plenty of stronger axles that either bolt right up or won't take much work to.

Haven't decided on a diesel, just compiled a lot of data and come to some preferences. Still doing homework regarding: Isuzu 4JB1T, Volkswagen 1Z or AHU (probably converted to mechanical control), Toyota 2L-2T, 1KZ.

The ALH takes well to modding and for little money you can bump the HP quickly to 200 they are in high demand so the engine it's self will probably be pricey.

[Derek up North]

While looking for the 'R-Value' for NidaCore (R3.3/inch), I came across this interesting site:-

http://www.hookedupfilms.com/huf-adventure-vehicle/

I think I like the XP-Camper.

http://www.xpcamper.com/

[moroza]

The ALH takes well to modding and for little money you can bump the HP quickly to 200 they are in high demand so the engine it's self will probably be pricey.

Any well-built diesel is easy to turn up, but in any case I want to preserve long-term reliabilty rather than squeeze out more power. The ALH has a timing-belt-driven waterpump, and a vacuum pump on the back of the head. The former is an abomination of unreliable engineering, and the latter is a fitment issue. A sorted TDI longblock with an mTDI pump would set me back roughly 3000 including adaptation to a Toyota transmission. A Toyota 2L2T or 1KZ would be about the same cost, easier fitment, less fuel economy and comparable reliability. An Isuzu 4J would be about 1000 less since it comes with its own trans, and I'm impressed by what I hear of their reliability and maintainability (replaceable cylinder sleeves, gear-driven camshaft). The only huge unknown there is physical fitment.

What's your experience with the TDI or any other diesel motor?

While looking for the 'R-Value' for NidaCore (R3.3/inch), I came across this interesting site:-

http://www.hookedupf...enture-vehicle/

I think I like the XP-Camper.

http://www.xpcamper.com/

Great. Thanks to these two suggestions in particular, I'm now going to spend the next week of my life buried in reading about using composites for construction instead of wood. So much for free time...

Other than that, the subproject I'm most focussed on right now is interior layout, which is going to affect door placement so I need it out of the way before starting construction. I'm doing all kinds of analyses, but it'd be great to get feedback on the various possibilities from people who've dealt with this before. Should I make a new thread for that?

[Maineah]

Any well-built diesel is easy to turn up, but in any case I want to preserve long-term reliabilty rather than squeeze out more power. The ALH has a timing-belt-driven waterpump, and a vacuum pump on the back of the head. The former is an abomination of unreliable engineering, and the latter is a fitment issue. A sorted TDI longblock with an mTDI pump would set me back roughly 3000 including adaptation to a Toyota transmission. A Toyota 2L2T or 1KZ would be about the same cost, easier fitment, less fuel economy and comparable reliability. An Isuzu 4J would be about 1000 less since it comes with its own trans, and I'm impressed by what I hear of their reliability and maintainability (replaceable cylinder sleeves, gear-driven camshaft). The only huge unknown there is physical fitment.

What's your experience with the TDI or any other diesel motor?

Great. Thanks to these two suggestions in particular, I'm now going to spend the next week of my life buried in reading about using composites for construction instead of wood. So much for free time...

Other than that, the subproject I'm most focussed on right now is interior layout, which is going to affect door placement so I need it out of the way before starting construction. I'm doing all kinds of analyses, but it'd be great to get feedback on the various possibilities from people who've dealt with this before. Should I make a new thread for that?

Well I own a TDI the Toyota also has a belt and a vacuum pump. Just about every diesel engine uses a vacuum pump because they have no throttle plate hence no manifold vacuum to run things like vacuum assisted breaks. The ALH mods are dependable unless you go over board bigger injectors make a big difference and so does a ECM flash diesel take well to a flash unlike the gas engines. The engine in mine has had no issue the ALH is probably the best diesel VW has made yes it will need a belt kit about every 100K mine has had two and still going strong averaging about 50MPG even if I drive it like stole it. That said I would prefer some thing with more displacement for a truck the ALH is only a 1.9 would it power the MH sure but....That being said there are a lot of Toyota pickup out there with an ALH transplant. There is a forum on the TDI.com web site just for TDI project cars Now a nice 3 liter V6 diesel maybe a MB or even Isuzu inline they make an outstanding truck engine. Most of the stuff that was imported in the 70's were fairly gut less the turbo diesel Toyota had is about the same power as the 22RE but the non turbo was only about 62 HP Isuzu powered the Chevy luv pickup I think that was even less HP. I don't know where you live but you might check with your DMV about a repower some states have issues with emission inspections.

[moroza]

Well I own a TDI the Toyota also has a belt and a vacuum pump. Just about every diesel engine uses a vacuum pump because they have no throttle plate hence no manifold vacuum to run things like vacuum assisted breaks. The ALH mods are dependable unless you go over board bigger injectors make a big difference and so does a ECM flash diesel take well to a flash unlike the gas engines. The engine in mine has had no issue the ALH is probably the best diesel VW has made yes it will need a belt kit about every 100K mine has had two and still going strong averaging about 50MPG even if I drive it like stole it. That said I would prefer some thing with more displacement for a truck the ALH is only a 1.9 would it power the MH sure but....That being said there are a lot of Toyota pickup out there with an ALH transplant. There is a forum on the TDI.com web site just for TDI project cars Now a nice 3 liter V6 diesel maybe a MB or even Isuzu inline they make an outstanding truck engine. Most of the stuff that was imported in the 70's were fairly gut less the turbo diesel Toyota had is about the same power as the 22RE but the non turbo was only about 62 HP Isuzu powered the Chevy luv pickup I think that was even less HP. I don't know where you live but you might check with your DMV about a repower some states have issues with emission inspections.

Oh, I know the story of diesels and vacuum. The problem is where the pump is: most diesels have it as a belt-driven peripheral, or on the back of the alternator. On the ALH, it's on the back of the head, driven off the cam. That's fixable, but the timingbelt-driven waterpump is a dealbreaker by itself, so I won't bother. I'm almost certainly not going to run the full suite of VW electronics, so I'd tune it like any other diesel. But really, I'd leave fuel alone and just advance the pump a bit. My concern with the TDI is that they're efficient and reliable in 3000 pound commuter cars, but 1.9 liters pulling a 2+ ton box through a 4x4 drivetrain on all kinds of bad/off-road terrain? Makes me a little wary, long term. If I were in Europe, a 2.5 or 3.0 V6 TDI would be on the short list of swap candidates, but I'm not. And frankly, every VW product I've ever wrenched on has been, well, horrible, which makes me additionally hesitatant regarding the TDI. The Chevy Luv and Isuzu P'up had the older indirect-injection C223 engine, a miserable 50hp wheezer. They later made a turbo version, the C223T with a whopping 82hp and rod bearing issues. I'm not interested in those. The 4JB1T engines I mention are direct-injection 1-wire 2.8 liter turbos (some intercooled). They came in Rodeos, Troopers, and some box trucks with 5-figure GWR's, so I think it'll do just fine in my truck. They also made industrial ones that go in some Bobcats and other applications. Something like 115hp/160ft-lb out of the box, which should be plenty. Pending fitment, it's just about perfect.

[Galvanized Knight]

My heat source is going to be a tiny woodstove, either a conventional one, or a rocket stove. I'd like to keep it above visible-breath temperature inside when it's as low as -30 outside (I'm definitely not a snowbird ). I hear a lot about propane heaters... is anyone here using a wood-fired stove?

A solid fuel burning unit would be awesome. If your making the whole shell you might as well make the stove too. Myself I would try to make more of a mini "build in fireplace".

I have a friend who had a wood heater in his baywindow westy. Its was made out of a pipe tee and its was right behind his seat so he could stuff a few sticks in while he was driving.(not recommended)

Nice Chassis too, I have a few of those 1st gen 4x4's and they are legendary. Those R series engines are bullet proof to boot.

Cant wait to see some concept art!

GK

[moroza]

A solid fuel burning unit would be awesome. If your making the whole shell you might as well make the stove too. Myself I would try to make more of a mini "build in fireplace".

I have a friend who had a wood heater in his baywindow westy. Its was made out of a pipe tee and its was right behind his seat so he could stuff a few sticks in while he was driving.(not recommended)

Nice Chassis too, I have a few of those 1st gen 4x4's and they are legendary. Those R series engines are bullet proof to boot.

Cant wait to see some concept art!

I've read your restoration thread, and was hoping you'd chime in. Can you elaborate what you mean by "built in fireplace"? I want to keep weight down, so building an entire corner of the box out of masonry brick isn't going to work. The more I research stoves and safe clearances, the more this stove idea is crystallizing into something made out of a small beer keg, with several layers of well-spaced heat shielding to keep it from burning the whole truck down.

I've seen where you've taken yours and how you've used it. I've got some questions about overall structural integrity. Is your frame a factory longbed 4x4, or is it reinforced in any way? Is the rear axle the stock one, or a 1-ton? I assume the fiberglass box is mounted rigidly to the cab, but how is it mounted to the frame? Same rubber mounts as the cab? Have you experienced any flexing or related damage from wheelin' it around with all that weight?

[Galvanized Knight]

Can you elaborate what you mean by "built in fireplace"?

A build in fireplace in like this link " fireplace " likely you'll build one about a 1/15 as big or less. it basically uses air spaces and insulation to keep combustibles under 90 c. There will be some brick in the firebox but mostly made of steel. you'll want to size in small so your fire actually has time to get hot in the firebox so you get complete combustion without heating you out of the camper. a airspace around the firebox itself will help it cool through convection and heat your space safely. I also feel the endeavor would be pointless without a large viewing area of glass. Keg is a great idea but may but too large for this space. a fireplace would also sit flush in the wall to maintain your internal area.

I've seen where you've taken yours and how you've used it. I've got some questions about overall structural integrity. Is your frame a factory longbed 4x4, or is it reinforced in any way? Is the rear axle the stock one, or a 1-ton? I assume the fiberglass box is mounted rigidly to the cab, but how is it mounted to the frame? Same rubber mounts as the cab? Have you experienced any flexing or related damage from wheelin' it around with all that weight?

no the frame is not factory I tried that on the first version of this truck. If you actually plan on really using it in the bush on rugged terrain a factory frame will not work out for you. My first version literally snapped in half 60km out of cell service area. I ended having to come-along and strap the rear section to the cab and use the front tires to drag the Chinook out to where i could get a flat deck tow truck. Based on this horrid experience version 2 had a totally reinforced frame. I took a factory frame and box the entire frame with 1/4" plate ( top bottom and sides ) I also added 2 new mounts for the camper as close to the cab as i could get it. I originally used hockey pucks to mount the camper then I replaced them with machined nylon ( the 76 factory version just had hardwood mounts ) My rear axle is factory from the 4x4 1980 and has not had any issues ( i have about 10,000km on this current set up ) I am finding issues with the rear leaf spring through i am currently looking to have a custom set of 1.5 ton leafs with a 5" lift made. The Chinook has no mechanical connections to the cab it is simply compressed both forwards and down upon the cab. This allow some movement without breaking the weather seal between the two.

I had hoped one day on making a entire shell myself but I have few projects to do before that.

I can t wait to see your progress on your project . My best advise is overthink everything first and just roll with it once you start.

GK

[WME]

Some ideas.

www.tumbleweedhouses.com

Google military tent heaters. I have heated a lot of tents with the little potbelly stove.

WME

[moroza]

no the frame is not factory I tried that on the first version of this truck. If you actually plan on really using it in the bush on rugged terrain a factory frame will not work out for you. My first version literally snapped in half 60km out of cell service area. I ended having to come-along and strap the rear section to the cab and use the front tires to drag the Chinook out to where i could get a flat deck tow truck.

Holy expletives! Please tell me you were catching air while carrying a load of bricks with 22" rims mounted, not something more... mundane. I would think the springs, shackles, bumpstops would all get destroyed long before the frame did anything but flex, maybe bend. Just snapping?! Where was it, right behind the cab? Was the frame at all rusty, especially on the inside (you probably got a good look at it after the fact...)?

Based on this horrid experience version 2 had a totally reinforced frame. I took a factory frame and box the entire frame with 1/4" plate ( top bottom and sides )

That sounds... heavy. And way more welding than I'm comfortable doing.

I can t wait to see your progress on your project . My best advise is overthink everything first and just roll with it once you start.

Good advice. I feel that's what I've been doing - this has been in planning for months, and I'm sweating as many details as seem remotely relevant. Some of the bigger-picture items, though, come only from experience I don't have. I've played with lots of road vehicles, but pretty new to offroading. I've learned how to get stuck, how to get unstuck, and the value of scouting on foot for hidden meter-deep ruts - all the hard way - but never had anything that serious happen. That's what's so valuable about reading others' experiences, especially the ones I'd rather not duplicate! I wonder if your cab and camper were rigidly connected, to distribute the load better, that it could've prevented that disaster? Or would you instead get them cracking from twisting forces?

Hardwood, hockey pucks, nylon... do you think using soft rubber mounts would've helped? I'm toying with using BMW motor mounts, which are fluid-filled. Not cheap - about $60/per - but two of them hold a V8 making 335 ft-lb torque just fine, and they are certainly very isolating.

I may have to rethink this entire d-mn project, having heard this. I won't be running quite as much weight as you (do I remember reading you were somewhere north of 5000 pounds?), but I do intend to take it off-road, and I was going to stretch the wheelbase with Ford springs, which isn't going to help the frame any.

Edited March 22, 2012 by moroza

[MAXXFabrication]

you can convert your ( or later model 86-95- wider by a few inches per side) rear axle to a full floating rear which will net you more strength. and weld new more heavy duty crossmembers in as well.

[bajadulce]

Cool.. another hippie joins the forum! That's such a fun ride. Imagine the stories behind that camper.

@ the subject of breaking down:

Back in my early VW baja days, we've had engines explode, engines fall out, and one camper stolen with us out in the water a mere 50 yards away. Funny thing to see a camper driven like it was stolen! It was found in a ditch on its side about 5 miles down the road.

I've seen campers get washed out to sea in flash floods, burn to the ground, and the game ending roll over. Mostly tho, I just see campers "fall apart" because the owners just drive too fast. I've pulled motors in the middle of nowhere to fix them right on the spot as towing was not an option... more than once... ouch! This one particular surf spot is a 15 mile hike to the highway then about another 10 miles to town. I've hoofed it to the highway at least a dozen times over the years and twice all the way to town lol! So yea, always pack some good walking shoes. There's an old saying from the salt dog veterans, "Never bring a vehicle (or camping gear for that matter) you aren't willing to sell cheap or just walk away from." Those days are long gone, but I've "sold" a few camp items just to extend the vacation back in the day.. or make it back home.

@ axles breaking, frame reinforcing and other suspension worries:

Solution = slow down to a crawl. Seriously it's as simple as that.

Breakdowns really suck when they are happening that's for sure, but the experience and memories years later are priceless! My fondest traveling experiences almost always involved some kind of serious breakdown or tribulation of sorts! It really is what you make of it. Obviously any sort of breakdown that involves physical harm such as an accident is NOT something you'd want to ever experience. Material property tho is just that... In the end, it's all expendable.

@ building a camper from scratch on the cheap + Derek's XP & Supercamper links/projects:

The Supercamper pricetag is about 30K when you add everything up. The XP camper is a fantastic rig built by a SFrancisco local, but is a commercial venture geared towards yuppies with big wallets. If I had to build a lightweight home made camper from scratch without spending a lot of money and without having to have a lot of tools or a shop, I would frame it with plastic ABS pipe, construction glue Fiberglass FRP shower panels to the frame, fiberglass tape the seams, add some rigid insulation for interior walls and call it done. 100% water and rot proof. Light and probably less than $500 bucks and good for as long as you want to keep it.

Back in the day, there were a lot of home built campers on the road. I just don't see many of them these days which is a shame.

Gluck with your ventures and welcome to the forums.

[moroza]

GK, I'd really like to hear details of your splitting incident...

you can convert your ( or later model 86-95- wider by a few inches per side) rear axle to a full floating rear which will net you more strength. and weld new more heavy duty crossmembers in as well.

My truck already came with the 86+ rear axle, which I'm pretty happy about. I might convert to a floating setup eventually, but it doesn't sound like that's a weak point.

Cool.. another hippie joins the forum! That's such a fun ride. Imagine the stories behind that camper.

Not mine, just some inspiration.

@ axles breaking, frame reinforcing and other suspension worries:

Solution = slow down to a crawl. Seriously it's as simple as that.

I have a feeling that's all it is, but I do want to hear GK elaborate on what was going on.

@ building a camper from scratch on the cheap + Derek's XP & Supercamper links/projects:

The Supercamper pricetag is about 30K when you add everything up. The XP camper is a fantastic rig built by a SFrancisco local, but is a commercial venture geared towards yuppies with big wallets. If I had to build a lightweight home made camper from scratch without spending a lot of money and without having to have a lot of tools or a shop, I would frame it with plastic ABS pipe, construction glue Fiberglass FRP shower panels to the frame, fiberglass tape the seams, add some rigid insulation for interior walls and call it done. 100% water and rot proof. Light and probably less than $500 bucks and good for as long as you want to keep it.

Intriguing. Yes, it'll be lighter than wood. Stronger? I doubt it. My biggest concern is being able to take it apart later, to retrofit a pop-top, add doors/windows...

[hawk]

I have some extended experience in both hot and cold weather with a camper on the back of my Toyota 4x4. About five years ago, during a divorce and no surplus funds for a rental, I lived in a camper. In the two winters, temps got down to 0 degrees F. I found that the camper had little in the way in insulation, but with a small propane lantern to read by, the evening went just fine. T-shirt inside. Of course, when shutting it off, with little in the way of insulation, things turned north. Water would be frozen by morning. I considered a small wood stove, but here's the hazard, carbon monoxide buildup, especially if you've done a decent job of caulking and sealing. Not a wise choice. I live, and have lived all my life with wood heat. It's a viable option only so long as you have outside air coming in and going out. Otherwise, you face asphisiation. So, for me, my cook stove added heat, my propane lantern for evening and reading provided very adequate heat, and I took to bed a liter of water to brush my teeth in the morning and make a cup of coffee. Good luck on your minimalist adventure.

[Galvanized Knight]

PM'd you.

GK

[moroza]

I have some extended experience in both hot and cold weather with a camper on the back of my Toyota 4x4. About five years ago, during a divorce and no surplus funds for a rental, I lived in a camper. In the two winters, temps got down to 0 degrees F. I found that the camper had little in the way in insulation, but with a small propane lantern to read by, the evening went just fine. T-shirt inside. Of course, when shutting it off, with little in the way of insulation, things turned north. Water would be frozen by morning. I considered a small wood stove, but here's the hazard, carbon monoxide buildup, especially if you've done a decent job of caulking and sealing. Not a wise choice. I live, and have lived all my life with wood heat. It's a viable option only so long as you have outside air coming in and going out. Otherwise, you face asphisiation. So, for me, my cook stove added heat, my propane lantern for evening and reading provided very adequate heat, and I took to bed a liter of water to brush my teeth in the morning and make a cup of coffee. Good luck on your minimalist adventure.

Thanks, I'm glad to hear a space this size doesn't need much in the way of heat generation, more in retaining it. There'll be a smoke alarm, CO meter and alarm, at least two fire extinguishers, and variable vents in addition to the doors and windows. I do intend to seal it thoroughly, so outside intake air is a given.

(Minimalist indeed)

[bajadulce]

@ more on homebuilt camper materials:

Composite construction is extremely strong. Even ribbed cardboard sandwiched between the right materials can hold up to almost anything a camper could ever need. Most modern camper construction is some sort of composite foam core construction (nidacore etc), but unfortunately kinda pricey materials for whatever reason. But still the material of choice.

Aluminum siding is definitely light, but requires framing + it can't be reshaped very easily when it gets damaged. 1970's Shot fiberglass construction (Chinook & Sunrader e.g) is very heavy, but a pretty indestructible base to work with.

Plywood construction is without doubt the cheapest and heaviest, but I've seen some really nice rigs made of light 1/2" plywood. Extremely easy to work with + with routine painting can last for a very long time.

I wish I had the opportunity to build a small camper from ABS pipe, frp panels, and rigid foam. So many fun ideas spinning in the head. Water storage for example lol! And the endless fitting options available for framing...

[WME]

www.tnttt.com

Go to the foamies, build a frameless box all you need is a base.

[moroza]

Regarding insulation, here's the back of my envelope:

Surface area of the camper box, including a hypothetical wall between the cab and rear, is 19.5 square meters.

Rigid foam has a thermal conductivity of 0.035 W/(m*K), which for 89mm gives a thermal resistance of 0.089/0.035 = 2.54 K*m^2/W. Thermal transmittance is the reciprocal of thermal resistance, in this case 1/2.54 = 0.393 W/(K*m^2)

With 19.5 m^2, I get 7.67 watts of heat lost through this insulation, for every degree Kelvin (same as Celsius) temperature difference. If I'm in a typical Norcal winter (5*C) and want it to be 25C inside, that's a gradient of 20K, so I need to be generating 7.67 * 20 = 153W to maintain that temperature. In a murderous arctic winter of -75C, that 100-degree gradient means I have to generate 767W, which is about 2618 btu per hour, which is about a sixth of the smallest woodstoves I've seen.

A human body makes 80W of heat when sleeping, about 110W at rest, and over 1000W doing heavy work (the first two numbers are pretty consistent among sources; I'm not sure about the third, though).

This isn't including the insulating value of plywood (very small), interior cabinets and whatnot (moderate), nor losses due to 2x4 framing (small to moderate) or windows (variable). But the back of my envelope suggests that me doing some pushups now and then will be enough of a heat source no matter how cold it is outside. So... I... don't... need a woodstove at all? Can someone check my math and reasoning?

Edited March 31, 2012 by moroza

[Totem]

http://www.ammocanstove.com/

I cant think of a better camper stove than the one above especially if you are ex military and like me possibly have an M1a.

I just bought the larger of the two models. There should be little worry of carbon monoxide build up if you use aluminum tape on the seams of the pipe and run pipe straight up and out your vent.

Nice stoves, each has a 6 x 6 inch burner plate to boil water on and and ash catcher that is actually the lid. when you need to clean it you just open it outside and dump it.

I'll post back to this thread how well it works when it arrives.

[WME]

Google phase change hand warmers.

[moroza]

I like those ammo-can stoves; they're about the size I had in mind when first planning things. I'd want to add a lot more heat shielding to mine, though.

Now that I've figured out a nominal value for how much heat output I need, I'm leaning towards a more complicated but compact heating system: a tiny stove, maybe the size of one of those ammo-can ones, with extensive heat shielding, that normally gets stored in some cubby, but that I can bring out and attach to two semi-flexible ducts: one for exhaust, one for outside-air intake. When I need heat, I bring it out, hook it up to the ducts, burn what I need, let it cool, then put it away and save some valueable floorspace.