BrianO Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Hi all, I'm new to this forum and have recently purchased a 1980 Sunrader 18ft. This seems like a great place to ask questions. I'm trying to remove the entire bathroom closet from the Sunrader so that I can reinforce the shower pan. I'm to the point where I have the entire fiberglass closet free except that the black toilet flange at the bottom is still holding it to the floor. Does anyone out there have experience on how it's attached? Other than the 6 very large screws going through the flange into the shower pan...I've removed those and now I can rotate the entire closet but I cannot lift it up because the flange is still holding it down. I was hoping the black flange would just slide up and out but now I'm guessing it might be glue to the black water tank. Before I do anything extreme I just wanted to see if anyone has had experience removing this. I see two options at this point. 1) Just pry harder and risk cracking the shower pan and hope the flange pops off. 2) Cut the flange off, remove the bathroom closet , and hope I can find a replacement that I can reattach to the black water tank. Any ideas? Thanks, Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvin Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Brian, try to destructively remove the ring. Use a sawzall or a drill to chew away at it. Be careful of the shower. I think the ring can be replaced more cheaply. I would avoid prying against the shower fiberglass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85mirage Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 I too posted this same problem a while back,but ended up breaking the flange off. Its called a closet flange which is quite fitting for your application. I dont have sunrader but needed to remove and replace floor which is why i needed to remove flange. I think someone said thats its glued to waste tank and to drop tank to remove. That would have worked for me but i broke flange instead. You have a little diff problem. With it holding bath unit in. Dont think dropping tank would help you. Protect the bath pan. I havnt reinstalled toilet yet but i did find closet flange available after i broke it off. They come in diff sizes. I still need to remove tank to remove rest of broken flange. http://cgi.ebay.com/...8#ht_1652wt_657 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianO Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 Thanks Alvin and 85Mirage, It was infact glued together very well so I ended up just cutting it off and I'm going to order a replacement as suggested. I may have to add a sleeve in addition to the new closet flange in order to bring the replacement to the original height. One other to thing to be aware of if anyone tries this on a Sunrader is that I don't believe you can remove the closet form the rv unless you separate the shower pan from the bottom of the closet. It looks like it was originally 2 pieces that are glassed together on the outside. Even separated it may be a challenge to get out the door with out damaging it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Possibly the shower was put in the bottom half of the shell before the top half was attached. Just a wild guess. What/how do you plan to reinforce the shower floor? Do you actually have to remove it from inside in order to do so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianO Posted December 1, 2010 Author Share Posted December 1, 2010 I could not see a good way to remove the bathroom so I cut the shower pan off the bottom of the closet so I could get it in the shop to work on it. The shower pan itself is very thin and it's attached to a honeycomb-like base that is made of light and thin material. Over time it appears that the base has separated from the shower pan and is cracked in several place. This was making the floor feel flimsy when I stood on it even though it was firmly setting on a nice solid floor. Also the area were the closet flange screws down is cracked. Looks like someone did a temporary repair by drilling holes into the base and spraying in a polyurethane foam but it's not that stiff. The shower pan and base are glued and fiberglassed together so I can't really see an easy way to reinforce it. I've decided I'm going to remove a section of the base and then glass in a piece of plywood and some additional framing to support the pan. I'll also build up the area around the closet flange to strengthen it. The pain is going to be reattaching the top of the closet to the shower pan. I just cut it near the seam with a cut-off wheel so it's not perfect. Originally the top and bottom pieces where joined with a piece of H-channel then fiberglassed from the outside. I need to find some small plastic 'H-Channel' or 'T-Channel' or maybe just a glue on plastic strip to hide my sloppy cutting. Anyone know of a source for plastic trim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianO Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 I finally got the shower pan reinforced. I fiberglassed in a 3/4" board and leveled it out with epoxy and microspheres. It's heavier than the original but much stronger. If I were to do it over again I would just turn the shower pan upside down and fill all the external pockets of the black 'honeycomb' base with epoxy thickened enough with microspheres so that it would not flow through the cracked parts of the plastic. this would probably stiffen the pan enough. But the way it is now I can jump on it and it wont budge. Next will be to reinstall the pan and fiberglass the top half of the bathroom closet back on. On a side note, the toilet flange that I had such a problem removing and eventually cut apart was not glued together as I said earlier but was threaded...all I really needed to do was unscrew it once the toilet was off of it...oh well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking66 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I recently removed my BWT for another project. My Toilet flange was glued to the big pipe going to the BWT, and that pipe was glued to the BWT. The only way I got it removed was by cutting the flange off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Brian; Good looking glass work. (I built an entire airplane with fiberglass and foam, so I have a little experience. Look at www.iflyez.com Anyway, the shower pan in my Dolphin has an 18 inch crack in the pan. The pan is different than yours as mine doesn't have the toilet stool as part of the shower. And my floor is smooth, like the bottom of a bathtub. The photos of your pan repair give me a little insight as to what I may run into while repairing mine. Thanks for taking the time to post them. Here's my plan: My shower floor is firm, Its obvious that the shower was not used with the damaged floor pan. I'm hoping th pan is fiberglass and not plastic. If its fiberglass, my repair will most likely outlast the the vehicle. If its plastic, it just depends what kind and how good the repaired section is able to bond to the plastic. (From your photos, I'm betting mine is also glass. I'll stop drill the crack by drilling a 1/4 hole at the end of the crack. I'll drill several holes beside the crack so I can squirt urethane foam under the pan. The Foam acts as adhesive and can also support structural loads (weight on the floor) After the foam cures, I'll use 120 grit paper and sand the pan about 3 inches on both sides of the crack. (scratch it so epoxy can bond to it) I'll then glass two layers of 2 inch wide BID (Bi-Directional) glass over the crack. and place peel ply over that. After cure, pull the peel ply, sand the entire pan with 200 grit, then prime and paint. This should leave a very small ridge in the pan (where the glass cover the crack) but I don't think it'll be a problem. A word about Spray Foams. There are several types of the Spray Can foam available. Use the stuff that has the Red label, NOT the blue label. The Red label is Urethane (is rigid and firm after cure, can support minor structural loads and also acts as an adhesive), The Blue label is Latex (remains a little flexible after it dries) John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I've limited fiberglass experience, mostly years ago trying to stick old clunkers together. A couple of years ago I picked up a beat up old sailing dinghy. Lots of cracked FG in the hull. It weighed an TON (almost literally) because inside the hull they'd injected foam to stiffen it and add bouyancy. Well, the trouble is, the foam used actually absorbed water and held it like a sponge. With no inspection hatches, once in there, there was nowhere for it to go. I ended cutting 4 access points and laboriously scooping out the sodden foam with a steel kitchen spoon. Removed 4 large garbage bags full (and a bunch of weight). Moral? Chose your foam carefully and expect it to be ably to hold water (against your wood). I'd never heard of 'Peel Ply' before today. Had to Google it. Well, it seems I reinvented the wheel when fixing up the old dinghy. Except I raided the kitchen and used a roll of common waxed paper over the glass/resin before squeegeeing it. I found it very effective (and a lot neater) than trying to squeegee the resin without. Thus ends my tale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Peel Ply - Dacron Fabric - Does a couple nice things, levels out those transitions between layers (no sharp edges), creates a surface that is ready for bonding if follow-on layups are needed. Anytime I do a layup, (vacuum bag or otherwise) I always use Peel Ply. Wax paper shouldn't be used, it leaves wax residue that must be cleaned in order to get stuff to stick to the previous layup. I use common saran wrap, HINT - Foams are different - Open cell will do exactly what you said, water will creep between the cells. Closed cell won't do this, also closed cell is very good for structural properties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Didn't notice any adhesion problems after using waxed paper, though I generally was applying paint after the f/g cured and not more f/g. After scuff sanding. I was only looking to 'pretty up' a $200 clunker and stop it sinking. But next time (I've got another dinghy waiting to be repaired) I'll try Saran Wrap, for sure. I agree there are different foams for different applications. It was just something of a surprise that a major manufacturer (Bombardier) managed to chose the wrong one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Didn't notice any adhesion problems after using waxed paper, though I generally was applying paint after the f/g cured and not more f/g. After scuff sanding. I was only looking to 'pretty up' a $200 clunker and stop it sinking. But next time (I've got another dinghy waiting to be repaired) I'll try Saran Wrap, for sure. I agree that there are different foams for different applications. It was just something of a surprise that a major manufacturer (Bombardier) managed to chose the wrong one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Goto the cloth store and buy the cheepest Dacron fabric they have (MUST BE 100% DACRON). It will probably be cheeper than wax paper or saran wrap. JOhn Mc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Nothing's cheaper than free! I inherited a couple of rolls of Saran Wrap and never use the stuff since I never generate leftovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 LOL LOL LOL Nothing's cheaper than free! I inherited a couple of rolls of Saran Wrap and never use the stuff since I never generate leftovers. :ThumbUp: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianO Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 So I'm finally getting the bathroom back together, I have the floor reinforced, the shower base rebuilt and the two halves of the bathroom fiber glassed together. I have the toilet flange in and I am ready to install the toilet. My question is? When I removed the toilet it had a small (foam only) gasket between it and the flange. I'm used to seen a wax ring sealing the toilet to the flange. Is it different for an RV? I'm inclined to put a wax ring in to get a good seal. Does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't? Have others used a wax ring? Thanks, Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianO Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 So I'm finally getting the bathroom back together, I have the floor reinforced, the shower base rebuilt and the two halves of the bathroom fiber glassed together. I have the toilet flange in and I am ready to install the toilet. My question is? When I removed the toilet it had a small (foam only) gasket between it and the flange. I'm used to seen a wax ring sealing the toilet to the flange. Is it different for an RV? I'm inclined to put a wax ring in to get a good seal. Does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't? Have others used a wax ring? Thanks, Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 The wax ring does not do well with the temp changes in an RV. Use the foam gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAXXFabrication Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Peel Ply - Dacron Fabric - Does a couple nice things, levels out those transitions between layers (no sharp edges), creates a surface that is ready for bonding if follow-on layups are needed. Anytime I do a layup, (vacuum bag or otherwise) I always use Peel Ply. Wax paper shouldn't be used, it leaves wax residue that must be cleaned in order to get stuff to stick to the previous layup. I use common saran wrap, HINT - Foams are different - Open cell will do exactly what you said, water will creep between the cells. Closed cell won't do this, also closed cell is very good for structural properties. hey John several of the "hot-to-glass" books I have mention fiberglass has its own type of wax that comes to the surface when curing and it is very important to remove it before doing a layer on cured glass. any experience with that at all? I will quute the books when I can dig them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Yes, there is a very, very thin film that develops. Epoxy will not chemical bond to a previous layer (i.e. melt and blend), so you must scratch it in order to provide a good mechanical bond. In order to get a good mechanical bond, You must scratch the surface of the previous layup. Use a 30 grit paper, this will also remove that thin layer of wax. Use of "Peel Ply" also takes the layer off, and gets a layer ready for the next layup. A peel plyed surface also provides a surface that is ready to start finishing, i.e. fine sand, prime, paint, John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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