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Grime_Divine

Can a 22RE make it in Appalachian Mountains? Any Tips or Tricks?

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Posted (edited)

Recent owners of a 1987 Gulfstream Toy. We have plans to take our MH up through Georgia and into Virginia, stopping at some campgrounds in the forests on the way up, mostly close to the Appalachian trail. Can we make it without any trouble? Anyone with tips and tricks for driving an auto tranny up hill would be appreciated. Thanks!

Edited by Grime_Divine

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Posted (edited)

My 87 22re rig automatic  trany made it up to Flagstaff AZ which is 7000 ft above sea level then each morning for 4 days we took it up to Snowbowl, 9500 ft above sea level.

The last couple miles were switchback and we often went down to 2 then 1st gear and had a line of pissed off snowboarders behind us in fancy SUV but we made it fine.

It ain't fast but it made it up and back. not something i would do every day so I think your east coast stuff isn't nearly as high. Good luck.

Edited by frontboat

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It'll be slow but it will do it! I'm I the mountains of western Maine and often go to VT through Crawford notch (read Mt Washington) the old boy would do it in 2nd. Sometimes they may want to upshift you'll need to manually shift it in to a range that won't allow it like say second range then if the engine is laboring just slow down a bit to match the engine speed and leave it in a lower range until you crest the top.

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My wife and I went to the southwest last summer in a 1985 sunrader auto, went over the rockies, I think the highest pass was a little under 13,000'. The toy didn't like it much but it did make it, low gear at 25 mph. So I say you have nothing to worry about, go for it!

 

 

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The mountains in GA max out at less than 6000' with gaps being 4500' avg. Climb and dive 1500' u can do it!

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Thanks all, Ill be sure to keep it in 2nd gear when things get steep. Mostly worried about Virginia and not Ga, which I am a little familiar with. We're trying to go near Mt. Rogers if anyone is familiar, there's a campground called Grindstone something or other.

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4 hours ago, Maineah said:

It'll be slow but it will do it! I'm I the mountains of western Maine and often go to VT through Crawford notch (read Mt Washington) the old boy would do it in 2nd. Sometimes they may want to upshift you'll need to manually shift it in to a range that won't allow it like say second range then if the engine is laboring just slow down a bit to match the engine speed and leave it in a lower range until you crest the top.

Best sites to see? we're heading to Portland actually as a final destination before heading back home to FL. Anything you recommend in western Maine?

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Wow good question what are your interests? What direction are you coming from? There is a nice campground in my neighborhood right on the Saco river about an hour from Portland. The waterfront in Portland is a great place to visit it still is a working waterfront along with shops and pubs.

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I've taken my 21 foot 1987 Sunrader with a 22re and auto trans up and down the hills of N Georgia - typically right along the Appalachian Trail.  Yes, you can do it and you have already had some good advice about how to do so.   The climb is not long, but near the top at a few places it does get pretty steep for a short bit.  It's not uncommon for me to be in 1st gear doing about 24 mph right at the top.  Second gear is my typical climbing gear on those roads.  I manually shift through the hills.  They are mostly two lane roads with the occasional passing lane.  

I generally end up getting up to about 210F on trans fluid temp at the top, which isn't that bad.  I put a trans fluid gauge in specifically so I could monitor temps on these hills.  That's the most common location to take my rig and I've been doing it quite a bit.  For a little while I was concerned that I was heating the trans fluid too much but I don't think that's the case.  Hot, yes, but not too hot.  Without a temp gauge I'd just stop at the top and put a hand on the trans to make sure it wasn't too hot.  BTW, I pulled my trans fluid pan the other day to check/change the filter and have a look.  Pretty sure the original factory gasket was still on there.  At 87k miles everything was perfectly clean, no indications of overheating, no metal bits in the pan except for a small amount of black metallic 'paste' stuck to the magnets.  The filter was completely clean, but I changed it anyway.  

Brakes are another thing to be aware of of course.  Make sure they are working decently.  The first time I came down the other side of the hill I experienced some 'brake fade' and that was a little disconcerting.  I often use engine braking on the way down now.  I've re-done my brakes and now I have no problems coming down.  Fortunately the hills in these here parts are not very high so even if you have some minor issue the overall climb/decent time is short. 

FYI, there are quite a few  WMA (Wildlife Management Areas) and Federal campgrounds in the Chattahoochee National Forest that are really fantastic - but these are first come first served and don't have reservations.  Many are boondocking type places.  We always manage to find one open though.  Here is a snapshot of a map of places we visit in the NE corner of Groegia in the Chattahoochee National Forest, PM me your email and I could send you a link to the Google Map if you are interested:

Capture.JPG.13c168e83b879910c9559c968535299a.JPG

 

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Mountain driving. #1 Basic rule go down the hill in the same gear you used to up the hill. Check brake temps a few times at the bottom to get a feel for things. If you can't keep your hand on your middle of the rim, you're going to fast.

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On 5/30/2019 at 9:08 AM, Maineah said:

Wow good question what are your interests? What direction are you coming from? There is a nice campground in my neighborhood right on the Saco river about an hour from Portland. The waterfront in Portland is a great place to visit it still is a working waterfront along with shops and pubs.

Interests are anything really, I love to see beautiful nature and like fishing or outdoors. Looking forward to eating out a few nights in Portland too. And sounds like an interesting place to watch. What is that campground called?

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On 5/30/2019 at 11:37 AM, AtlantaCamper said:

I've taken my 21 foot 1987 Sunrader with a 22re and auto trans up and down the hills of N Georgia - typically right along the Appalachian Trail.  Yes, you can do it and you have already had some good advice about how to do so.   The climb is not long, but near the top at a few places it does get pretty steep for a short bit.  It's not uncommon for me to be in 1st gear doing about 24 mph right at the top.  Second gear is my typical climbing gear on those roads.  I manually shift through the hills.  They are mostly two lane roads with the occasional passing lane.  

I generally end up getting up to about 210F on trans fluid temp at the top, which isn't that bad.  I put a trans fluid gauge in specifically so I could monitor temps on these hills.  That's the most common location to take my rig and I've been doing it quite a bit.  For a little while I was concerned that I was heating the trans fluid too much but I don't think that's the case.  Hot, yes, but not too hot.  Without a temp gauge I'd just stop at the top and put a hand on the trans to make sure it wasn't too hot.  BTW, I pulled my trans fluid pan the other day to check/change the filter and have a look.  Pretty sure the original factory gasket was still on there.  At 87k miles everything was perfectly clean, no indications of overheating, no metal bits in the pan except for a small amount of black metallic 'paste' stuck to the magnets.  The filter was completely clean, but I changed it anyway.  

Brakes are another thing to be aware of of course.  Make sure they are working decently.  The first time I came down the other side of the hill I experienced some 'brake fade' and that was a little disconcerting.  I often use engine braking on the way down now.  I've re-done my brakes and now I have no problems coming down.  Fortunately the hills in these here parts are not very high so even if you have some minor issue the overall climb/decent time is short. 

FYI, there are quite a few  WMA (Wildlife Management Areas) and Federal campgrounds in the Chattahoochee National Forest that are really fantastic - but these are first come first served and don't have reservations.  Many are boondocking type places.  We always manage to find one open though.  Here is a snapshot of a map of places we visit in the NE corner of Groegia in the Chattahoochee National Forest, PM me your email and I could send you a link to the Google Map if you are interested:

Capture.JPG.13c168e83b879910c9559c968535299a.JPG

 

Thanks for all the info. Sorry I’m new to these 22REs but sounds like it’s pretty easy to check out the trans? 

Also what exactly do you mean by using the engine to break?

thanks also for the snapshot. I’m thinking moccasin creek park actually as im slightly familiar with the area and enjoyed the place on recent trip and want to check out Tallulah gorge.

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11 hours ago, Grime_Divine said:

Interests are anything really, I love to see beautiful nature and like fishing or outdoors. Looking forward to eating out a few nights in Portland too. And sounds like an interesting place to watch. What is that campground called?

Ok suggestion,  canoe trip on the Saco river. The campground is Woodland Acres (woodlandacres.com) there are several but many are party campgrounds Woodland is more family friendly nice quiet campsites, pool etc. There are lakes accessible from the river, great for side trips and fishing. The campgrounds along the river all rent canoes they will take you up river drop you off and the current will take you back to the campground. I have land along the Saco and my neighbor is a state owned 6000 acre wildlife management area with plenty of still water fishing some pretty good size fish, the river floods in the spring and the big fish get trapped in the still water! My area is 1 hour from both Mt. Washington and Portland. Mt Washington is a good trip no RV's up the auto road but they have both a cog railroad and coaches to access the summit that's all most a must see in the Mt Washington area.The Conway NH area (less than 1/2 hour) has something for everyone dozens of really good restaurants and brewpubs, acres of outlet stores scenic train rides etc.

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53 minutes ago, Maineah said:

 Mt Washington is a good trip no RV's up the auto road but they have both a cog railroad and coaches to access the summit that's all most a must see in the Mt Washington area.The Conway NH area (less than 1/2 hour) has something for everyone dozens of really good restaurants and brewpubs, acres of outlet stores scenic train rides etc.

Last fall I pulled my trailer to the Cog Railroad and camped next to several full size pusher RV's in the parking lot as part of the Harvest Host program. Beautiful area with great hiking and views!

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13 hours ago, Grime_Divine said:

what exactly do you mean by using the engine to break?

When you leave your foot off the accelerator pedal when going downhill a vacuum is created in the intake manifold.  The drivetrain spins and the vacuum in the intake created by the cylinders/valves creates the braking effect.  It doesn't hurt the engine and takes some of the load off the brakes.  It works best if you shift manually, typically into second (or first on really steep parts).  RPM/speed is the same as going uphill so max ~25 in 1st and ~45 in second. 

Both Moccasin Creek State Park and  Tallulah Gorge State Park are fantastic spots.  These are Georgia State parks inside the National Forest so you can make a camping site reservations at both state parks here: https://gastateparks.org  

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Engine braking is much more effective with an manual transmission compared to an automatic. But both help. But neither as effective as a 'Jake Brake'. :)

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13 hours ago, Maineah said:

Ok suggestion,  canoe trip on the Saco river. The campground is Woodland Acres (woodlandacres.com) there are several but many are party campgrounds Woodland is more family friendly nice quiet campsites, pool etc. There are lakes accessible from the river, great for side trips and fishing. The campgrounds along the river all rent canoes they will take you up river drop you off and the current will take you back to the campground. I have land along the Saco and my neighbor is a state owned 6000 acre wildlife management area with plenty of still water fishing some pretty good size fish, the river floods in the spring and the big fish get trapped in the still water! My area is 1 hour from both Mt. Washington and Portland. Mt Washington is a good trip no RV's up the auto road but they have both a cog railroad and coaches to access the summit that's all most a must see in the Mt Washington area.The Conway NH area (less than 1/2 hour) has something for everyone dozens of really good restaurants and brewpubs, acres of outlet stores scenic train rides etc.

Thanks alot, I think well do that!

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12 hours ago, AtlantaCamper said:

When you leave your foot off the accelerator pedal when going downhill a vacuum is created in the intake manifold.  The drivetrain spins and the vacuum in the intake created by the cylinders/valves creates the braking effect.  It doesn't hurt the engine and takes some of the load off the brakes.  It works best if you shift manually, typically into second (or first on really steep parts).  RPM/speed is the same as going uphill so max ~25 in 1st and ~45 in second. 

Both Moccasin Creek State Park and  Tallulah Gorge State Park are fantastic spots.  These are Georgia State parks inside the National Forest so you can make a camping site reservations at both state parks here: https://gastateparks.org  

Thanks alot!

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I'm reviving this topic as I have some info to add having just returned from a trip from Atlanta to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park and back again over about a weeks time.  Maybe this can help others who want to travel through these relatively low and accessible 'mountains' (nothin' but 'hills' to y'all over in the West) in a 4-banger yoterhome.  It can be done relatively easily, but a little planning and expectation management can make the trip a little more pleasant.

I was traveling specifically in the lower section of the Smokey Mountains National Park, but most of the Appalachian Mountains are going to behave in a similar manner.   I did some route planning using Google maps and the bicycle route feature that lets you see elevations, but I really wish I could have seen the upcoming elevation changes in regular car driving mode.  I decided to not go one one scenic 'skyway' because it was a 2-laner with very steep climbs along a ridge.  I missed the views by going around but i think it was the better choice given that the 22re and auto trans are not exactly sporty on the climbs.  

I got very in tune with shifting the auto trans manually (3 gears, no overdrive) and this made climbing a lot easier for me.  I used the previous suggestion of 4k RPM to climb and I could get up some pretty good hills in second this way.  When I had to go down to first I could do about 28 mph at 4000 rpm and could get up (almost) all hills I came across.  It was tricky sometimes because some corners are so sharp and so steep that it was hard to keep up rpm and speed to not stall out.  I had to be pretty aggressive to keep rpm/torque in tight cornering climbs (which there were plenty of).  

I monitored trans temps on a gauge and had no issue.  Never got over 190 and brakes never got too hot.  I went down the hills in the same gear I went up in.  This was hard sometimes as you want to go faster down, but you need to be kind to your brakes.  I never had hot pads or smelled any pad burning or felt any brake fade this way.  Yes, you go a little slower going down than the people behind you want to deal with, but there a plenty of turn outs and I used them all the time to let folks by.  Note: don't pull out to a stop on a steep hill, it's hard (sometimes impossible) to get going again from a dead stop if it's to steep.  Wait until you have a flat or not steep section to pull off and let the other folks by.  Traffic was very light in the areas we visited (by choice) and this helped a lot too.  Driving along the rivers with no one else around, for example, was terribly pleasant.

At one point I found myself running the Tail of the Dragon at Deals Gap (318 curves in 11 miles - plus hills). This is a famous motorcycle and sports car run near the national park.  We had to go this way to get to our campground but boy I wish there had been a different way around...  Still, it was kind of festive. They even have photographers along the route - check out the thumb's up in pic 1 (of you zoom in) and the lean around the corner in pic 2:

1070509143_Dealsgap2.JPG.a130b682f18cd5474b383097d2bb9101.JPG  1241462009_Dealsgap1.JPG.a0040c0889496ec3f8e0c5ef9fe7e6c2.JPG

It was actually a pretty tough run of 11 miles, but I gave it a good go.  Fortunately there was a storm threatening and all the motorcycle riders were on a full-stop - that was my cue to get through the Gap while the getting was good.  The rain held off for me and I only had to pull over 4 times to let other cars/cycles past.  My riders in the back were pretty car sick at the end of the run! 

I did get stuck on a hill one time and had to turn around and go a different way.  Fortunately this was not a problem and cost very little time, but it was a bit disconcerting and there was a tinge of wounded pride as I slunk away from the big steep mean hill.  Google had decided to save me a few minutes and sent me on a more 'local' road and since I was offline I couldn't see elevations.  I was coming around a very steep corner in first that required me to slow down to 10 mph and then suddenly in front of me was a wicked steep hill - looked like a 12% grade and I didn't have enough steam to get up it from 10 mph even in first.  I bailed out in a driveway and turned around.  Maybe I could have stressed it out and made it up, but it didn't look good.  I know that the grade of a hill could be kind of like the size of a fish, but this was _really_ steep.  First time I ever had this happen.

I hope to find a way to be able to map routes and monitor upcoming elevation changes (climbs or descents) as well as plan routes to avoid any unreasonable uphill grades, all offline since there was zero signal in that national park 80% of the time.  If anyone knows of a dedicated GPS map device or an app for a phone that accomplishes this let me know.   

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A tip for a 4 cylinder toy home don't stop on a very steep hill. The torque converter can "stall" and when you try to start off again it will not move.

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I hope to find a way to be able to map routes and monitor upcoming elevation changes (climbs or descents) as well as plan routes to avoid any unreasonable uphill grades, all offline since there was zero signal in that national park 80% of the time.  If anyone knows of a dedicated GPS map device or an app for a phone that accomplishes this let me know. They do make dedicated RV GPS units for things like overpasses dirt roads steep hills etc and I think they also have gampground routing here's one https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/570074?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIscyMit_14wIVhZyzCh0UfwijEAAYASAAEgLGZPD_BwE 

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1 hour ago, Maineah said:

dedicated RV GPS

Oh, that looks like a good option, I'm going to check it out!

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2 hours ago, Derek up North said:

Unfortunately, " Due to Google Map's new pricing, I have taken the site offline."

https://www.flattestroute.com/

Plan B...https://rvroadsandroutes.com/

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10 hours ago, Maineah said:

A tip for a 4 cylinder toy home don't stop on a very steep hill. The torque converter can "stall" and when you try to start off again it will not move.

I've been wondering about this issue and I was hoping that someone could help explain a bit more about what happens in the (automatic) transmission when you try to get moving on a hill but just can't get going no matter what you try with the pedal.

What if you have no choice but to stop on a steep hill?  I had a car abruptly stop on a steep hill right in front of me this last trip.  I was lucky that I was able to complete my _only_ uphill pass of the trip because nobody was in the opposing lane, but what if I stopped on this steep hill?  What is the best approach to getting moving on a steep grade?  Are there any key tricks, tips or do's and don'ts?  Press the pedal and pray?   If you do manage to get physically moving but the rig is clearly laboring, is it ok to just 'tough it out' and keep the pedal down as long as it doesn't stall or is this potentially doing more harm than good?  

One time when stopped on a steep two lane hill I decided to use up the whole road to sort of get the rig angled across the road so that I got going the first  5 to10 feet on a relatively 'flat' grade and then zig zagged to get up past 10 mph and then I was able to get rpms up and was able to go up the hill.  Is this a reasonable strategy if you have the room or not?  Once I get rpms up past 3500 in first the rig will go up some really steep grade confidently, but getting there from a stop or from <10 mph due to a hairpin turn  can feel nearly impossible.

Does the transmission fluid temp have any significant impact  on torque converter stall behavior?  

 

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Posted (edited)

I got nailed in a construction zone going into Rocky Mountain National Park. I pulled over just before I had to stop. I talked to the flagger and he held traffic and I backed up about 100 ft to a "flat" spot. Then started back up the hill. Made it to the top mountain in first gear.

All this goes back to too much weight and not enough HP

Edited by WME

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I'm posting an update about my effort to find a tool to help me plan for steep grades on a route.  

Things I wanted:

  • ability to import/export points/routes from My Maps in Google maps
  • Offline GPS based navigation with downloaded maps
  • Ability to view the elevation/grade changes on a selected route
  • Ability to warn of an upcoming very steep grade coming up while navigating 

There were two basic options that I investigated: 1) a dedicated Garmin GPS made specifically for RV use, and 2) a smartphone app called Locus Map Pro

Garmin makes a GPS unit that will show you the elevation profile of your route while you are driving.  This seemed like a good solution as this unit, according to the specs, met all of the requirements above.  I waited patiently for one to come up on ebay as the ~$300+ price tag was a bit high.  For $130 I got one to experiment with.  Short answer is that it's going back on Ebay next week.  The unit is too simple, slow and is generally tedious to deal with.  Routing is difficult to change and the "RV" profile is not useful for out small RV's.  It kept trying to send me places as if I was a huge bus of an RV.  The ability to import/export data was incredibly poor.  Overall just a bad experience.  But I'll get my money back out of it by selling it.

On the Smartphone App side, I found that "Locus Maps Pro" is a good option for what I want to do.  For a total of about $15 for the app and some (very) detailed maps of the states around me I now have what I wanted!  The downside of this app is that it's relatively complicated and has a bit of a learning curve.  It took longer than I was hoping for to learn how to do all of the things I wanted.  But once I figured it out I was pretty impressed with Locus Map because it's able to do much more than I needed and it does do it very well.  One thing I quickly learned is that viewing the elevation isn't really the key thing, it's viewing the slope or grade on the road that is most important.  This app lets you set a route and color it by change in grade (blue/green is flat, red/orange is steep), like this:

Screenshot_20190825-080038.png.e8db165aee038439a9e0aadb810457ef.png

You can see the grade ahead while navigating based on the color of the route.  But the most helpful feature in this app is the ability to easily view the elevation and grade of a selected route in a graph so that before you start driving you can tell what you are in for:

Screenshot_20190825-080222.png.efa3414158f98a6bd676402d087a8b52.png

In this example I see one spike in the gradient graph saying that there is a section of road that has a 13% grade.  The app let's you jump right to that spot on the route and see what's up:

Screenshot_20190825-080407.png.5a660e51953713ce3ea10f4cad3ca4f4.png

That one steep bit is shown above with the red "+" marker.  It's right on a tight corner.  13% isn't terrible (and this is just an example I found to illustrate this app), but if you hit that one going too slow you might have trouble.  The point being that I'd like to be aware of these grades and either re-route to avoid them or be prepared when I hit them.  In this app I can hit a button to make a marker and then while navigating the app will notify me 1 mile ahead of the steep bit so that I can get ready to power up the grade.  Again, 13% isn't bad (not great either), but if it's 15+% I sure want to know!   

During my last trip Google would sometimes route me using a short section of "local" road to get from one highway to another in order to save a few minutes.  This is how I got caught and had to turn around last trip.  In this app I can easily see that issue and avoid it.  This is a route Google suggested moved over and shown in Locus Maps Pro:

Screenshot_20190825-084602.png.95254489de7fc1149d82f7bcf7e805bb.png

The shaded topo view plus the colored route suggests this shortcut is perhaps to be avoided.  It's not high, but it's steep for about half a mile with a max grade of 14%:

Screenshot_20190825-084806.png.2ae2fd5d61b8dfda67babae1e89e7007.png

Armed with this kind of information I'll soon be able to know if this represents a "no-go" zone or if this is simply a "hit it at 4000 rpm in first and you are fine" situation.  In the latter case i just want to be ready for it. 

OK, so that's the report.  I'll update this post if I find that in actual use over time I find better options or issues with this app that make me stop using it.  

 

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On 5/29/2019 at 2:18 PM, Grime_Divine said:

Recent owners of a 1987 Gulfstream Toy. We have plans to take our MH up through Georgia and into Virginia, stopping at some campgrounds in the forests on the way up, mostly close to the Appalachian trail. Can we make it without any trouble? Anyone with tips and tricks for driving an auto tranny up hill would be appreciated. Thanks!

I have an app on my smartphone: Avoid the Hill. Shows you the flattest route to where you are going.

Iflyfishintheslowlane

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BTW, I looked up that hill that caused me to turn around - the one that caused me to look for this elevation/navigation tool:  It has a max of 18% grade!  (specifically 1/8 of a mile of 15% to 18% grade).  It was short but mean looking.  No wonder I took one look and said, 'no way."  At least I'll see that kind of thing coming from a mile away now...

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I swapped in 4:88 gears makes a big difference

 

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8 hours ago, 1988dolphin said:

4:88 gears makes a big difference

This is an excellent point in this context.  Yes, hill climbing would certainly improve with a 4.88, but there's a trade-off.  I've got the A43D auto trans with no lockup in OD and with a 4.88 the 3rd gear top speed is limited to around 55 mph.  This means I'd have to rely exclusively on OD for highway driving.  My OD slips so much now that I just never use it and I'm not confident that I'd be happy with full time OD as 4th gear on the highway with a 4.88.  I'm continuing to watch for a used 4.88 locally so I can try the swap and easily go back to the 4.11 if I don't like it, but so far I haven't found a decent used 4.88 3rd member for a fair price.  I'm in no hurry, but in the mean time I'll have to deal with less climbing ability.

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Posted (edited)

I drive a 88 Dolphin with a 22RE and A43D auto. I found a 4:88 third member at a local yank a park. $125 out the door. Did the install myself. I have put 15K miles on the vehicle since the swap. The photo shows my my typical highway cruising conditions. Added gauges which help overall driving. Pleased with the result. But I am holding on to the original third member.

 

IMG_1420.jpeg

Edited by 1988dolphin

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