Wheel studs breaking

[MaineErik]

Just left the tire place - they got two new tires on the front no problem (orig 5 lug wheel) but the rear studs were not loosening.  I just bought this camper a few weeks ago and 1 rear stud was broken already (upgraded 6 lug axle).  The mechanic broke another stud today trying to loosen the wheels (he was aware of the reverse threads) and stopped after that so as not to strand us at the shop.  Manager called everywhere but no one has replacement studs or really knows how to order them.  

Does anyone know what part number this is?  Toyota OEM only or can I buy aftermarket?  
Shop also mentioned that the hub would need to be disassembled in order to replace broken studs: 1.5hrs/side.  Does that sound right?
And finally I suspect the best way forward would be to replace all 12 studs with new ones: agreed?  I certainly don't want to deal with studs shearing at highway speeds!

I got a fantastic deal on the tires: $370 for 6 new Goforms including balancing&mounting - of course I'm only 2 into it right now.  It's unfortunate that this problem arose.  Thanks.

[WME]

Forget about replacing the LH studs, just get "normal" RH threaded studs and nuts.

[jjrbus]

Ahhh stuck nuts!  I used to use 10 foot pieces of schedule 140 pipe on 1 inch breaker bars and torches that would make the sun look small, with 100 horsepower compressors and 10 horsepower impact gun with kryptonite sockets to conquer those nuts, get em cherry red hot and beat on em with a 10 pound sledge, to be a winner, not just a contender.

There is something about frozen nuts that brings out the caveman in men, they bring out out Cro Magnum desire to beat it with a bigger club, we must win the battle with the stuck nut or women and children will starve, volcanoes will erupt and  the world as we know it will come to an end.

One time after almost hurting my back on a nut I had a moment of inspiration.  I took an angle grinder with a metal cutting blade and very carefully cut away at the nut as close to the threads as I could get, takes some patience and finesse, steady hand and good eye. As close to the thread as I can get without hitting the threads say within 1/32".  Every nut I have tried this on will come off with 1 cut and with little effort. At most having to tap on the flat area I have created with a chisel.  Not cutting into the thread but in parallel with the bolt. Now If I get too much resistance , out comes the grinder!

I realize this is not very macho and may bring shame on my family, but that's the way I do it!     HTH  Jim

Edited August 12, 2016 by jjrbus

[Back East Don]

3 minutes ago, jjrbus said:

Ahhh stuck nuts!  I used to use 10 foot pieces of schedule 140 pipe on 1 inch breaker bars and torches that would make the sun look small, with 100 horsepower compressors and 10 horsepower impact gun with kryptonite sockets to conquer those nuts, to be a winner, not just a contender.

There is something about frozen nuts that brings out the caveman in men, they bring out out Cro Magnum desire to beat it with a bigger club, we must win the battle with the stuck nut or women and children will starve, volcanoes will erupt and  the world as we know it will come to an end.

One time after almost hurting my back on a nut I had a moment of inspiration.  I took an angle grinder with a metal cutting blade and very carefully cut away at the nut as close to the threads as I could get, takes some patience and finesse, steady hand and good eye. As close to the thread as I can get without hitting the threads say within 1/32".  Every nut I have tried this on will come off with 1 cut and with little effort. Not cutting into the thread but in parallel with the bolt. Now If I get too much resistance , out comes the grinder!

I realize this is not very macho and may bring shame on my family, but that's the way I do it!     HTH  Jim

I think I've figured out why you keep breaking things.

[Maineah]

Those are little 1 ton studs! I agree just replace them with right hand threads.

[MaineErik]

I sprayed all the lugs a couple hrs ago with PB Blaster (I know I know, not nearly as mannly as jjrbus!) and just now managed to loosen all the passenger side nuts with no problem (all 6 of them).  On the drivers side I could loosen 2 of the remaining 4 nuts, maybe I could have gotten the last 2 but I didn't want to give it too much and shear any more studs off!  So either the LH studs were really monkey wrenched on there or the mechanic at the garage did a hack job and broke the 2nd one and lied about knowing it was reverse threaded... I will probably never know.

Good news at least is that only the driver's side will need new studs.  

So RH threads all around eh?  Why was OEM LH in the first place?  
And where can I buy these buggers?!

Edited August 13, 2016 by MaineErik

[jjrbus]

I forgot to mention the 50 gal drum of PB blaster in my report

Are you sure all the studs on that side are left hand thread?  Over a long period of time a couple might have been replaced with right hand.

There is also the possibility that someone with a big impact put the left hand ones on wrong..

Can't help with part #'s   Or can I?  I will dig around later,   I replaced the studs on one wheel on 93 SeaBreeze with 6 lugs, slight possibility that all the years used the same studs?  Once you get a stud out a good parts person can match them up. The local NAPA in my area has good parts people.  Auto Zones and the like you have a 25% chance of getting a knowledgeable person. 

Don't have to wait, for mine I bought Dorman 610-339 double end stud,  M14-1.5.   The chart shows they fit rear wheels 89-94 with 6 bolt pattern.   Will they fit yours, I don't have a clue! Taking one to a parts place is the best option.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   HTH  Jim

[fred heath]

An excellent homemade rust penetrating fluid can be made with a 50/50 mix of ATF fluid and acetone. Put in a spray bottle. Will out perform all the commercial penetrates.

Remember to turn the spray head to "off" when done. The mix has a tendency to leak out through the spray head when in storage.

[Back East Don]

1 hour ago, fred heath said:

An excellent homemade rust penetrating fluid can be made with a 50/50 mix of ATF fluid and acetone. Put in a spray bottle. Will out perform all the commercial penetrates.

Remember to turn the spray head to "off" when done. The mix has a tendency to leak out through the spray head when in storage.

Interesting.  I may have to try this but will likely go with a squirt bottle as I've had awful luck with spray bottles.

[Back East Don]

11 hours ago, MaineErik said:

So RH threads all around eh?  Why was OEM LH in the first place?

The theory is the rotation of the wheel vs the lug nut so as not to have momentum loosen them.  Or at least how I recall it being explained.  If I'm wrong guys, go easy as I'm a bit gun shy after getting my butt handed to me on a fishing forum.  Those guys are a tough crowd.

Also, have you verified the valve stems?  The only thing I don't know is if those rims you have are different.  Ask Linda as she has the same 6 hand hold rims on one of hers.

[Derek up North]

The comparison 'test' of this brew has been on the net for years. I did some 'digging' a number of years ago and it turns out that the 'author' actually did his test using power steering fluid and MEK.

I've never tried mixing up either since I've always had (IMHO) excellent results with PB Blaster.

[Back East Don]

4 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

The comparison 'test' of this brew has been on the net for years. I did some 'digging' a number of years ago and it turns out that the 'author' actually did his test using power steering fluid and MEK.

I've never tried mixing up either since I've always had (IMHO) excellent results with PB Blaster.

The only appeal with this would be the squirt bottle vs the spray can which is all that is available at the local hardware store.  Spray can always has the tube missing and gets more around the target than on it.  I do like the built in tube on the new WD40 cans in that regard.

[Derek up North]

Here's the origin of the ATF/Acetone magical mixture.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6756&d=1352583587

[Derek up North]

False memory. Not MEK, but trichloroethelyne. Nasty stuff.

George Bulliss

03-28-2011, 01:10 PM

I get more mail about this one little article than any of the others we have printed. Almost all of the mail relates to the fact that the two ingredients in the homemade penetrant do not mix. The fact that the photo in the magazine shows a container of Power Steering Fluid, while the text refers to Automatic Transmission Fluid, has also spurred more than a few people to call or write.

The author was kind enough to write a reply to these questions and it appeared in the February/March 2010 issue of Machinist’s Workshop. The following is Lloyd W. Bender’s reply:

The original homemade penetrating oil mixture called for using trichloroethelyne as the solvent. I cannot recommend trichlor for home shop use and definitely not for anything slightly resembling a business. Both PSF and ATF will form emulsions with acetone under mild agitation sufficient to thin the oil enough to penetrate. Upon standing, these will separate. Acetone performs better than the other commonly available organic solvents, such as methanol, but not as well as trichlor.

 

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-47279.html

[fred heath]

All I can say is I've used the ATF/acetone mix and found it works better on rusted nuts and bolts than WD40, PB blaster or any other commercial mix.

Yes, it does separate when stored, but a quick shake and your in business.

Just my opinion. Not liking to start a major discussion on its merits.

[Back East Don]

7 hours ago, Derek up North said:

False memory. Not MEK, but trichloroethelyne. Nasty stuff.

I know what you mean about memory.  I'm trying to remember if it is molecular weight that is the determinate of penetration or not.  Trichloroethylene is 131.4 g/mol vs acetone at 58.08.  So that's how my Saturday morning is going.  How's yours?

[MaineErik]

4 hours ago, jjrbus said:

I replaced the studs on one wheel on 93 SeaBreeze with 6 lugs, I bought Dorman 610-339 double end stud,  M14-1.5.   The chart shows they fit rear wheels 89-94 with 6 bolt pattern.   Will they fit yours, I don't have a clue! Taking one to a parts place is the best option.

OK, I got the 3rd of 4 lugs free this morning. I applied a full 50 gal drum of freshly brewed ATF/Acetone magical mixture to the 4th and last lug - it will come free!!  

So once it is free can you give me an idea of what's involved in removing the old studs and replacing with new ones?  I'm assuming the drums have to be removed first, is that similar to what a typical Jap car would be like?  Then I'll have to hammer out the old studs or are they screwed in somehow?  Do I have to remove the hub? Gosh I hope not, but I don't want to wreck the bearings either.  There are a lot of how-to vids for domestics online, maybe it's a similar procedure... or maybe I should just let the garage do it for 1.5hrs labor...

[WME]

Kroil has the Right Stuff

[Back East Don]

4 hours ago, MaineErik said:

OK, I got the 3rd of 4 lugs free this morning. I applied a full 50 gal drum of freshly brewed ATF/Acetone magical mixture to the 4th and last lug - it will come free!!  

So once it is free can you give me an idea of what's involved in removing the old studs and replacing with new ones?  I'm assuming the drums have to be removed first, is that similar to what a typical Jap car would be like?  Then I'll have to hammer out the old studs or are they screwed in somehow?  Do I have to remove the hub? Gosh I hope not, but I don't want to wreck the bearings either.  There are a lot of how-to vids for domestics online, maybe it's a similar procedure... or maybe I should just let the garage do it for 1.5hrs labor...

Probably the best pictorial break downs of this kind of stuff are from jdemaris.    You might start at the pinned axle facts thread in suspensions and if I get a chance I'll search for a good thread if someone doesn't link it before me.

[Derek up North]

5 hours ago, MaineErik said:

Then I'll have to hammer out the old studs or are they screwed in somehow?

No, you won't be 'hammering' them out like a typical stud. They're actually held on from behind by a nut.

[MaineErik]

So I went looking per Don's note and found this: 

jdemaris shared some pics and a schematic that shows the studs and the nut, it looks like once I remove the drum it should all be pretty straightforward.

Any other advice before I remove the wheels and the drum? What about getting the studs out, will I be cursing my decision to DIY rather than pay the garage??!

Thanks all for sharing your expertise on this repair so far. 

[Derek up North]

7 hours ago, fred heath said:

All I can say is I've used the ATF/acetone mix and found it works better on rusted nuts and bolts than WD40, PB blaster or any other commercial mix.

Yes, it does separate when stored, but a quick shake and your in business.

Just my opinion. Not liking to start a major discussion on its merits.

I have no experience using any 'home brew', so won't comment either but have noted your experience/opinion. I also applaud the guy for trying to do something approaching a proper study. A pity he decided to do his test using such nasty stuff and not acetone (still a bit nasty).

In 2005 it was announced by the United States Environmental Protection Agency that the agency had completed its Final Health Assessment for Trichloroethylene and released a list of new TCE toxicity values. The results of the study have formally characterized the chemical as a human carcinogen and a non-carcinogenic health hazard. A 2011 toxicological review performed by the EPA continues to list trichloroethylene as a known carcinogen.

If PB Blaster doesn't do it for me, I grab the Blue Wrench.

[MaineErik]

Actually on 2nd examination of the schematic it looks like the hub and axle DO have to be removed in order to replace the studs: 

I've done plenty of drum brake jobs on old Hondas we've owned, so is this in the realm of my mechanical abilities and will I need any special tools?

[Back East Don]

I poked around for about an hour but just can't find the post I was thinking of.   It was a pictorial disassembly starting at the hub plate.  Was so complete, I thought to myself, hey, I could even do that.  Problem is, I haven't and even attempt to describe it from memory, I'll foul you all up.

It's on my list perhaps next season to do the brakes and all the preventive stuff on the rear so I'll need to find that post eventually.  I got rush off but it has been dead here lately.  Summer, go figure.

Hang in there and someone will likely post something useful cause I ain't no help on this.

[MaineErik]

I went for it this morning and got it all apart with surprising ease.  I followed the instructions from this doc, which I think @waiter published somewhere: Dully_Rear_End_Overhaul.pdf

1. Removed wheels
2. Removed nuts and cone washers (tapped with 14mm socket as recommended on this forum, loosened them right up) from axle shaft, removed axle shaft
3. Removed phillips screws from bearing lock nut, then unscrewed lock nut by gently tapping with flathead and then spinning by hand.
   
4. Removed hub/drum assembly, outer bearing is loose so catch it!
   
5. Removed bolts holding deflector to inside of drum (placed the assembly into wheel to gain leverage), then use service bolt to separate drum from hub
   
6. Released nuts on back of broken studs (didn't realize until later that the bolts had been staked, would have made life easier to unstake them first)
7. Placed hub on block of wood and tapped out broken studs with hammer, they had been coated in anti seize and it didn't take much force to get them out
   
8. So now I need to replace the studs with either OEM parts (part # for left ones is: 90942-01009, they're $6 at http://www.toyotaparts.metro-toyota.com/) OR go with normal RH studs like the ones @jjrbus posted: Dorman 610-339 double end stud,  M14-1.5.  Might also need new nuts, maybe from here if no where else has them.
9. ***Question*** - can I press the new ones in myself by using the nut to pull the new studs into the hub or do they need to be machine pressed?
10. I'll probably replace the axle seals - I guess?? - (from Autozone: Timken 226285(large seal); Timken 710076(small seal)), does that sound right, not sure which is which,@jdemaris could you help advise?  Then put it all together and make sure the bearings are correctly loaded, there are some instructions here but they seem oriented towards the front (with cotter) and not the rear - anyone have any advice on preloading the rear bearings?  The instructions in the above pdf are also confusing to me.
11. I'll also need to replace the axle shaft gasket.

Brake shoes, bearings, races, everything, even seals looked really good in general. 
More info on all the above in the following posts: Back Brakes and Bearings & Bearing repack - rear axle?
I'm writing this all to help me understand what I'm doing just as much as to document for others.  

[WME]

Lots of anti-seize, line up the splines and use the nut to draw it up and tight. Anti-seize on splines, threads and the face of the nut.

I set the preload by hand, no scale, just make it no slack just barely.

[jjrbus]

I cannot guarantee those studs will fit your vehicle, so get them somewhere you can return them! Dorman seems to still be putting out quality products.  Thanks for taking the time and effort to photo and post the job.    Jim

 

Edited August 14, 2016 by jjrbus

[Back East Don]

6 hours ago, MaineErik said:

I went for it this morning and got it all apart with surprising ease.

They just grow up so fast don't they. 

Other than the fact there is a house attached to the back, working on these for the most part is basic mechanical work.

[MaineErik]

1 minute ago, Back East Don said:

They just grow up so fast don't they. 

Other than the fact there is a house attached to the back, working on these for the most part is basic mechanical work.

I've been taking things apart since I was a wee little boy - the real test is putting it all back together!  Correctly!!

[jjrbus]

1 hour ago, MaineErik said:

I've been taking things apart since I was a wee little boy - the real test is putting it all back together!  Correctly!!

I think the real test is knowing what to do with all the left over parts     So I walked into the service station (remember service stations)  and said to the guy I am having trouble with my carburetor, he said whats it doing?  I looked into the paper shopping bag I had and said nothing!  I had gotten it apart and could not reassemble it!  They gaffed me on that one, think they got me for 10 or 15 dollars to reassemble it.  But I watched and learned.   

[MaineErik]

Case closed!  Got everything put back together, drove it to that garage this morning, and now have a bright new blue Maine inspection sticker on the window - yahoo!  
For the record - Dorman 610-339 studs worked.  I had to special order them, plus the lug nuts, and found the M15-1.5 inner stud nuts at NH Bragg (could have used them for lug nuts too I guess).  I didn't replace any seals, but they all looked good.  Getting the bearing preload correct is the only area where I'm not 100% sure - they were either loose, or I had to push a little bit on the lock ring, I chose the latter.  I used a spring scale but there was a bit of drum/shoe rub so I'm not sure how accurate the measurement was.  Those new tires look mighty purdy too!

Chapter 2: Today I started to rip apart the over-cab bunk.... 

[jjrbus]

They sure are some good looking tires!  When it comes to anything rubber, if it does not look new, I replace it.  

I bought the studs at NAPA, I was not 100% sure when I bought them so wanted an easy return.     Jim