Renovating a gutted 18’ Sunrader

[sweetleon]

Hi everybody,

This forum has been really great for finding info and answering several of my questions, so I figured I’d post my predicament and ask for your sage advice.

I recently acquired a 1984 Sunrader 18’ with the 4-cylinder 22R engine and a 4-speed manual transmission. The odometer reads about 191,xxx miles, tho I have a receipt that says the speedometer (which includes the odometer) was replaced in 1998 or so. The exhaust was completely replaced by the previous owner from the catalytic converter on back, and the carburetor is freshly rebuilt.

Previously it had a leak in one of the window seals which led to rot in the cabin that led the previous owner to “gut” it. Basically, all the systems seem to be functional (tho I haven’t successfully tested them all yet), but the interior has just a rough wood floor, some new wood ceiling, and a lot of exposed fiberglass. The only interior features that seem to be original are the over-cab bed, bathroom, closet, fridge and paneling that holds it, the kitchen sink, stove/oven and the paneling that holds them. Also, I still have the cushions for the dinette, tho some of them could use new upholstery. I’m beginning to think I’ve gotten in over my head.

So far, it seems the fresh water tank has a leak (see photo) but maybe the winterization valve is open?

The fridge works on 12v, but I haven’t tested it on propane or AC. I haven’t yet managed to fire up the furnace, water pump, or hot water heater, tho I believe they’re fine. I’ve gotten water from the sink, the toilet flushes, and the shower runs but leaks near the knobs. However, the bathroom/shower floor doesn’t seem to be draining, tho the panel says the grey water tank is empty.

The rear dually axle, wheels and tires seem to be great, and the front wheels and tires seems fine as well.

There are three batteries under the hood. In addition to the usual 2, there’s a Harbor Freight Thunderbolt “Solar” batter mounted near the passenger corner which is attached to a weak solar panel on the roof via a questionable Harbor Freight solar charge regulator.

Also, every morning there seems to be dampness under the cushions in the over-cab bed.

Finally, there is no spare wheel/tire or jack.

Oh, and have I mentioned that I’d need to install walls and insulation?

Meanwhile, my own skill set is lacking: I’m a computer geek, not a handyman, tho I’d love to learn how to fix/build all these things.

So, my question is: should I proceed with the renovation, and learning all the skills involved? Or should I sell it to someone who has the requisite skills and buy another Sunrader that’s closer to plug&play? One option I've found nearby is a 21' Sunrader that's pretty much ready to go but it has the fooly 5-lug rear axle. 

Thanks!

[Back East Don]

5 hours ago, sweetleon said:

Meanwhile, my own skill set is lacking: I’m a computer geek, not a handyman, tho I’d love to learn how to fix/build all these things.

So, my question is: should I proceed with the renovation, and learning all the skills involved? Or should I sell it to someone who has the requisite skills and buy another Sunrader that’s closer to plug&play? One option I've found nearby is a 21' Sunrader that's pretty much ready to go but it has the fooly 5-lug rear axle. 

You sound of two minds.  What does your head and heart tell you?  How far apart are they?  Which one are you likely going to listen too?  The rational mind is screaming at you because that's what it does.  The emotional side has this vision thing that just romanticizes the notion of wanderlust.  How to reconcile the two?  They are both going to want to be satisfied.  I don't know if I'm close with this but it seems a common affliction.  It is a monumental task to be sure.  Would be natural to feel overwhelmed.  People have gone both ways.  Some give up under the strain, others go on to glory (sorry about the glory part, couldn't help myself).  This part really requires self evaluation.  Here a rational mind is helpful.  It has a better understanding of who you are and what you are capable of.  Lay it all out on the table and commence with the introspection.

Ok, how about some practical advice?

A project like this is going to take resources.  Money, time, knowledge and skill.  The top on the list is money.  Got some and how much are you willing to spend?  Add time.  An odd artificial human construct that we so often enslave ourselves to.  Add these two and you have the time worn adage, Fast, good or cheap, pick two.  You got plenty of money, you've got options.  You want fast, you better have plenty of money.  Good and cheap often costs you time (that and often a lot of sweat in this kind of case)  All of this should be self evident but sometimes we don't see the forest for the trees.  This should cover the this or that question.  No shame in getting what the heart desires.

Lets say you decide to keep pressing on with the restoration of this one for what ever reason.  You are going to need resources.  I'm here for you buddy.  No, I mean it, I'm here and I'm not flying out to CA.  You'll need skills.  Good thing those can be learned.  Tools. Besides the basic everyday tools the thing I would suggest for you is to look into both maker spaces and a woodworkers club.  This is the advantage to living in an urban tech area.  Here for a monthly fee, you can acquire both the skills and use of some pretty great tools.  Materials.  Most things can be obtained pretty easily.  The community here can help you find things as well as offer advice on a whole range of things you'll run into.

Triage it.  You've got this RV that seems to need everything.  Easy to see how it can get overwhelming.  I offer the same advice as always.  Top down.  Address the the outer shell and make it water tight first and foremost.  Second, deal with the berth area because having a place to sleep is the most important thing in camping.  With a running RV with a comfy bed all you need is a cooler, camp stove and some provisions and you're able to go camping.  It's not glorious but you're not in a tent.  From there, add things in order of your preference.  Hey, I'd prefer the fridge to the cooler, or perhaps a working toilet.  This makes it manageable in a one thing at a time fashion, you'll get there eventually and you'll get to have some of those adventures the emotional side is looking for.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Back East Don

[jjrbus]

Time and money are the biggies, a rule of thumb is it will take 2 times as long and cost three times as much as you think or is it vice versa?  Every trip to a big box store costs minimum of $10 and takes 2 hours.  Then there is the 10 minutes to all night looking up the info you need on the internet, time after time after time, being misguided by a well meaning but wrong you tube video. Then the worst time spent, redoing something you have already done wrong or replacing a brand new but bad part!

I started with the mechanical and moved on to the coach. I have been after this thing for over a year and am close to being usable. However I have experience at this, many tools and Home Depot, Lowes, Tractor Supply, Northern tool and Harbor freight all close to me. Also if need be I can hire things done.

My first adventure into this in a bus, I started with an air mattress (after taking seats out)  set on 2 drawer filing cabinets,  a coleman cooler, with a BBQ grill to coook on and no porta potty (YUCK) refereed to as camping in a tin can! Complete with garage sale curtains taped over the windows.   Ended up renting a room in FL for a while as I had to escape NY winter to work on it.

Was it a sound financial decision, NO ,  was it fun and did I learn lots of things and meet some interesting people, yes.   You will learn innumerable skills, which you will carry through life, get to deal with many people,Many of whom will be really great and then there are the others.  Spend countless hours on the net and spend far too much money. Many make at least one trip to the emergency room.

Also take into consideration I am retired and have the gift of time.              Good luck        Jim         

 

[Back East Don]

22 minutes ago, jjrbus said:

Every trip to a big box store costs minimum of $10 and takes 2 hours.

I thought the HD stood for hundred dollars.

[Back East Don]

25 minutes ago, jjrbus said:

and then there are the others.

I thought we talked about this and agreed...

[zero]

That is a lot of work for someone who lacks the tools and experience to do.   I guess it depends if you want a long-term and expensive learning project that will hopefully also become a useful camper?  Or, sell it and buy something better. I suspect what you have is very sellable if priced right.  I have no idea what you paid for it. In my area around northern MI, I'd expect it to sell in the area of $2000, as described.  Here is one similar that sold here recently for $3600 that was in better shape.  Newer, not gutted, and close to be ready to use.

[86rader]

Why can't I find a sort of gutted shorty sunrader 4 speed?  If I was a little closer to you, I would do my best to convince you it was crazy to restore it. I would then offer to take it off your hands for cheap.

Unfortunately, you are on the wrong coast, so I say go for it. There are plenty here that have been there, done that and have the T-shirt.

Question about the moisture?  Is it after a rain? I was under the impression that it doesn't rain in california this time of year.  If it is, it is likely due to the Cali. built ever so sexy looking, but leaky wraparound windows. There is a not so easy solution. Yank them and fiberglass the holes over. It has been done. I know this because I did it in my yard to tika's shorty. It was my first fiberglass job and I think it came out rather well. You can likely sell the windows if they are in good shape. Might even pay for the materials.

Tika, I assume you are out there somewhere. Do you still have it? Has my fiberglass work stood the test of time?  Hope so.

If done well, I think it improves the look. I was particularly proud of the interior finish of the area. If you look around at new rigs, you will find that pretty much everyone has given up on forward facing cabover windows. They really are kind of pointless.

[Back East Don]

2 minutes ago, 86rader said:

If I was a little closer to you, I would do my best to convince you it was crazy to restore it. I would then offer to take it off your hands for cheap.

After I posted, I thought for a few minutes and figured I might have to retract that statement about not flying out to CA.  I have some experience with this as I did just that to pick up a 79 Toyota Landcruiser in Barstow CA.  The drive across country wasn't too bad with a vehicle that didn't even have a radio.  I was younger then though.  I just have to keep telling myself that I am not buying another one this year.

[sweetleon]

10 hours ago, Back East Don said:

What does your head and heart tell you?  How far apart are they?  Which one are you likely going to listen too?

I like your philosophical reduction of the question.

My heart says "DO IT!" And, in truth, my mind isn't really arguing against it. Mostly, tho, I just want to double-check with folks here who definitely have a clearer picture of what I'm getting myself into than I do.

Perhaps I should explain why I got the RV in the first place. Because I live in San Francisco, there's a bunch of great places that are available for a weekend getaway (wine country, Santa Cruz, Monterrey/Carmel, Lake Tahoe, Yosemite, the list goes on). But I almost never go to any of those places because I have a toddler and a dog, and it's hard to find a suitable place to stay with them. Hence the desire for an RV that can be parked in the city during the work week. This 18' shorty fits perfectly in my driveway.

10 hours ago, Back East Don said:

A project like this is going to take resources.  Money, time, knowledge and skill.

Again, you've boiled it down to the essentials. Thank you. I'll answer in reverse order:

Knowledge & skill: very little, as I'm a city boy with a desk job. However, I have a penchant for finding clever solutions and what I've come up with is getting a volunteer from Workaway to live in the RV and work on it. The berth is OK, so there's a place to stay. And San Francisco is such a desirable location that I got a volunteer within hours of posting my ad, and had to quickly take it down as I was overwhelmed with other volunteers wanting the "position." Unfortunately, my volunteer doesn't have more knowledge or skill than I do, tho we do sometimes fill the gaps in each other's ignorance.

Money: I'd budgeted $3k more than I spent on the gutted rig (expecting to buy a more turnkey RV), so I've got that money available.

Time: I'm in no particular hurry, tho the sooner I have it ready the sooner I can start enjoying it the way I envisioned. Ideally I'd love to take it to Burning Man at the end of August (without the dog or toddler) but I realize it won't be ready by then. My own time is quite constrained because I have a full-time job, a half-time toddler (with whose mother I thankfully have an amicable relationship), I volunteer and try to maintain some semblance of a social life. However, my Workaway volunteer has plenty of time. ⏳

10 hours ago, Back East Don said:

Add these two [time and money] and you have the time worn adage, Fast, good or cheap, pick two. 

If I really had to pick just two of the "fast, good, cheap" trio, I'd choose good & cheap because I have no particular time constraints. But I'm hoping for a decent compromise among the three where it's pretty good but not perfect, pretty soon but not immediately and pretty cheap but not free. Please let me know if I'm kidding myself. Or, if there are specific issues on which I really do have to prioritize fast/good/cheap, such as flooring or walls or electrical or ...

10 hours ago, Back East Don said:

Besides the basic everyday tools the thing I would suggest for you is to look into both maker spaces and a woodworkers club.

That is an excellent idea! We have a TechShop here in San Francisco right across the street from where I used to work. It's a bit of a hassle getting a "large" vehicle down there, but it can be done. I'll look into getting a membership.

10 hours ago, Back East Don said:

Address the the outer shell and make it water tight first and foremost. Second, deal with the berth area because having a place to sleep is the most important thing in camping.

I believe that sealing all leaks was already done by the previous owner, tho there does seem to be some condensation in the berth in the morning. More on that shortly.

10 hours ago, Back East Don said:

With a running RV with a comfy bed all you need is a cooler, camp stove and some provisions and you're able to go camping.  It's not glorious but you're not in a tent.

That's actually what went thru my mind when I bought this RV. It already matches that description. Come to think of it, maybe I will take it to Burning Man in a month. Bc the toilet flushes and the stove works, all it needs is a swamp cooler that my RVolunteer and I could make in a few hours (ok, a weekend).

9 hours ago, jjrbus said:

Every trip to a big box store costs minimum of $10 and takes 2 hours.

Thus far, my RVolunteer's trips to the Lowe's a half-mile away have matched that description, tho mostly bc he doesn't drive a car much less an RV, so he actually walks down my hill. Some things can't be brought uphill by hand or wagon, but we haven't encountered those yet.

9 hours ago, jjrbus said:

Then there is the 10 minutes to all night looking up the info you need on the internet

Yes, that's how I found this wonderful group of people! ? Thank you all so much for all the help and guidance I've already gotten in the archives, and for all the help I'll be asking you for in the coming weeks, months and years!

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by sweetleon

[sweetleon]

By the way, if anyone wants to follow along with our progress, you can see it at www.pivotaltracker.com/n/projects/1623111

[sweetleon]

Turns out the Sunrader I bought was listed in the Classifieds here. I bought it for a little less than half the listed price, tho. ?

 

[Kale]

11 minutes ago, sweetleon said:

By the way, if anyone wants to follow along with our progress, you can see it at www.pivotaltracker.com/n/projects/1623111

Agile RV restoration? 

[Back East Don]

One or two of us have made it through this before.  There is a good collective knowledge base here and people are genuinely helpful.

With the toddler, I'd focus on kid friendly, even if only short term stuff like cheap thin luan plywood to cover some stuff up like the rear dinette framing.  Key is whatever you do, take it one thing at a time.

You can thank my friend Burke for the maker space suggestion.  I was picking up some surplus stuff this week from where he works and we got to talking about dream tools (he's a combo hardware/software engineer).  He mentioned a place he found.  Apparently they even have an electron scanning microscope.  I looked into woodworking clubs before I upgraded my shop tools.  I'd love to find a place with a 4'x8' capacity CNC router table and access to a waterjet cutter.  We live in great times.  Have some fun with it and enjoy.

[Maineah]

It's a clean slate have at it when it's done it's 100% yours.

[naganthunter]

I am in the middle of an interior remodel on mine, which is about 1/4 of the work you're considering.  It will take T-I-M-E to do it right.  If you're ok with that, I say engines ahead full!  If you want something that's done by a certain date, buy one that doesn't need work.  It won't be done when you want it.  I can almost guarantee that.  

It's a lot of fun to do - especially when you finish a project and stand back and think: "Dang, that looks really nice" about your work.  I've experienced more moments of that than I would have thought.  I'm really looking forward to how good it will look when I'm done.  In my mind, it will be the best Toyota Motorhome on the road.  But I can guarantee you that just about every owner on this forum who has redone his or hers will argue against that!  THAT is the fun thing about doing it - it's YOURS.  Just the way YOU want it.  As a fellow "computer geek" I can tell you that re-doing the coach is cool because I can customize it ahead of all the modern gadgets I'm going to put in.  

I'll admit that I do get frustrated that it's still not done - I bought it in December and wanted it ready for the summer season.  That's not going to happen.  I've also spent way, way more money than I thought I would too.  I wouldn't trade the time or money back.

Best of luck!  

 

 

[Back East Don]

15 hours ago, sweetleon said:

I believe that sealing all leaks was already done by the previous owner, tho there does seem to be some condensation in the berth in the morning. More on that shortly.

After spending a lot of time chasing down small leaks that ruined a lot of effort I put into the inside, I've become the roof evangelist.  You posted a picture of your roof and even though I could not clearly see all the details, one glaring issue stood out.  One vent was removed/replaced.  The thing is, there is no lap sealant around the perimeter and over the fasteners.  To truly inspect the roof and make sure everything is tight up there, the first step is to wash the roof getting all the seams as clean as possible.  Then look for cracking around all the things that protrude from the roof like the pipe vents.  Not a bad idea to re-do anything that looks suspect or has silicone.  You'll hear this from just about everyone on here.  Silicone is the worst sealing choice for a motorhome.  Dicor seems to be the standard.  Self leveling for stuff on flats.  Non-leveling for verticals.  Here is a video from Dicor on how to install and seal a RV roof vent.    Amazon has multi-packs that work out to about $10 a tube starting with 2 packs.  Speaking of Amazon, under automotive parts and accessories you will find a RV tab.  Except for the stainless bathroom sink and the case of butyl tape and bumper tube and cover, everything I got online came from Amazon.  Every little latch, hatch cover, roof vent, sealant, waste hose, stainless screws, pex fittings and valves and on and on.  Home Depot is fine for some stuff but RV's have some specific hardware that they just won't have.

There was also some good advice regarding the condensation above.  Those windows can be problematic and would be worth the time to clean around the seals and get those done up tight.  Others would have better advice about that but I know this topic come up a lot.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Back East Don

[linda s]

His roof and shell are all one fiberglass piece. No seams except down on the sides and they are fiberglassed together there too. I do see that his plumbing vent for the sink has been removed and there's a weird elbow inside that goes nowhere. Your rig isn't gutted but there is a ton of work to do. Wood ceiling has to be removed and reinforced cause they screwed up. Knowing where your located my first question would be do you have space to work and do you own tools to do this. I'm in San Jose right now for work but will be going back to Eureka in a week. I could meet you somewhere along 880 if you want to see what these things are supposed to look like. Mine is an all original Sunrader shorty, 1986 so the interior is very similar to yours. Love it that you still have the original drawers in the closet. Those things are usually the first to go

Linda S

[sweetleon]

21 hours ago, Kale said:

Agile RV restoration? 

Yep, I'm an enginerd ?

 

21 hours ago, Back East Don said:

Key is whatever you do, take it one thing at a time.

That's actually one of the rules of Agile as I've seen it practiced. But we'll probably have a lot of things that get started and pause while we wait for parts to arrive. (Since my RVolunteer can't drive, we order anything to heavy to be carried from Lowe's from Amazon.)

Edited July 18, 2016 by sweetleon
completed sentence

[sweetleon]

2 hours ago, linda s said:

I'm in San Jose right now for work but will be going back to Eureka in a week. I could meet you somewhere along 880 if you want to see what these things are supposed to look like.

Wow, thanks Linda! That'd be awesome!

I've sent you a PM to find a good time to meet up.

[Derek up North]

2 hours ago, linda s said:

His roof and shell are all one fiberglass piece. No seams except down on the sides and they are fiberglassed together there too.

Then they go and ruin it by making holes in it for windows, door, vents, lights and roof rack! 

 

[Totem]

well sweetleon, your rig has a very nice brand new SS exhaust and bilstein shocks.

as far as having skills, just call it out and we can tell you what to do.

I myself am in IT and also have a sunrader and have replaced damn near everything in it.

I even have a motor being built for it even though the one in it is just fine.

I usually leave the heavy jobs such as axle/engine/trans replacement to others.

Interior: thats DIY all day long.  You could always just paint the fiberglass walls if you are in warm climate. If you want some ER value, you could always go to home depot and get some of that mylar bubble wrap and then go over that with wall paneling of your choice.

I did tongue n groove cedar all the way around in my rig, gives it a cabin feel. I'm a nerd by day and DIY warior poop house everything else by night.

 

[Back East Don]

6 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

Then they go and ruin it by making holes in it for windows, door, vents, lights and roof rack! 

 

And Derek makes my point for me.  Don't presume it's sealed, verify.  I contend that vent install is at minimum, incomplete

 

2 minutes ago, Totem said:

I did tongue n groove cedar all the way around in my rig, gives it a cabin feel

2nd on the cedar if you like the look and the smell.  Extremely light too and easy to work with.  Lets just say this was a design dispute with the Mrs that I lost.  I did install it in the closet.  Compromises.

[Totem]

was so easy to do too... in my case, the old 80's paneling was still up , i just shot right over it with 1/2 inch brad nails.

[linda s]

Yes Sunraders leak at the windows and roof vents. If not the previous owner wouldn't have had to remove paneling. paneling is still much easier to replace than wall structure. This one can be fixed. I've seen worse. It's just a matter of skill and will.

Linda S

[86rader]

Here is an example of the cedar paneling in the cabover of a sunrader with the 2 front windows spackled over

http://s913.photobucket.com/user/petecnavy/media/Our Toyota Sunrader/cabover paneling.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

Cheap, easy, light, more or less impervious to water or bugs. and a 1000% improvement aesthetically, IMHO.

Edited July 19, 2016 by 86rader
added text

[Back East Don]

All I got was this closet.

[sweetleon]

So that's another issue I have: I don't really have a VISION of what I want my RV to be. I think I'd be pretty happy with a stock setup, tho I don't love the 70s paneling and upholstery. Tho I've gotta say: cedar is looking pretty tempting!

[Totem]

13 hours ago, linda s said:

Yes Sunraders leak at the windows and roof vents. If not the previous owner wouldn't have had to remove paneling. paneling is still much easier to replace than wall structure. This one can be fixed. I've seen worse. It's just a matter of skill and will.

Linda S

While this may be true, I have personally found what I had thought to be leaks to actually be condensation that collects on the cold windows and drips down into the the wall window surround; Generally speaking if the windows have been properly Butyl puttied well they are leak proof for a long time. you will see psuedo leaking often after cold nights/mornings camping with a few folks; your breath condenses on the front windows from the moisture of those sleep up in it and it has no where else to go.

[86rader]

12 hours ago, sweetleon said:

So that's another issue I have: I don't really have a VISION of what I want my RV to be. I think I'd be pretty happy with a stock setup, tho I don't love the 70s paneling and upholstery. Tho I've gotta say: cedar is looking pretty tempting!

No worries, as you can see, some of us have vision to spare. The vertical paneling is the way to go. What I did, was fiberglass some 1x strips onto the fiberglass shell, horizontally. This gives you something to mount the tongue and groove paneling. I will see if I can dig up pics. Fiberglass is a bit tricky to work with, but, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer and I managed OK. 

[Totem]

if you go the toungue groove cedar i would get a nice 1/2" brad nailer and a miter aka chop saw handy. you can shoot right into the old paneling if its still there if its just fiber glass only not so. also i would advise using wood glue on the tongues a lite swipin of it to keep it from buckling in winter if it gets cold there.

[Totem]

18 hours ago, Back East Don said:

All I got was this closet.

the closet was the one place i did not put any. so we are the yin and the yang of homes.

[sweetleon]

11 minutes ago, Totem said:

you can shoot right into the old paneling if its still there if its just fiber glass only not so.

Alas, I've got no wall panels left, just fiberglass. Kind of a clean slate, I suppose.

[Totem]

could always go the glue route and use liquid nails on backside.