zero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 This was being discussed on another thread and I figured I post some ads here, along with one multi-page story in a new thread. Ultra made all-aluminum RVs with Corvair air-cooled engines, Chevy 307 V8s, and also a big Class A front-wheel drive with I guess, the Toronado Olds 455 V8. All of these scans are from various issues of Trailer Life magazine in 1969. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 The early ones weighed only a little more than a Prius. Wonder what kind of mileage they would get with a Prius engine. Horsepower of the Prius is a little higher than the Corvair too. Lots of roof space to add some lightweight solar panels too. 100 watt flexible ones only weigh about 4 lbs each. Wouldn't that be a fun project Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 The Prius engine is more efficient then any automotive diesel engines I know of by 5%. But - can it reach the same efficiency when made in bigger size and/or worked hard? Probably not. If it did - I suspect we'd have full size HD pickup trucks with Prius-type gas engine instead of diesels. But who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Working hard would mean heavier vehicle. The Ultravan weighs the same as a Prius and might be more aerodynamic. Hybrid engines are already in lots of bigger vehicles from the Lexus RX to UPS trucks. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Working hard would mean heavier vehicle. The Ultravan weighs the same as a Prius and might be more aerodynamic. Hybrid engines are already in lots of bigger vehicles from the Lexus RX to UPS trucks. Linda S There is no such thing as a "hybrid" car engine. Just a hybrid car and the engines can be anything. Most today use the Atkinson Cycle instead of a conventional Otto Cycle. That usually means less power per cubic inch but a higher efficiency rating. I.e. not great for a hard working vehicle. I don't see how you can compare an Ultravan used for camping to a Prius car. A loaded Ultravan can weigh 6000 lbs. and is 8 feet tall. Night and day difference. Some heavy hybrid trucks use diesel engines and others use fuel cells. As far as I know - UPS only uses hybrid trucks for local deliveries and none are used in heavy highway transport trucks (at least last I checked). For local delivery it makes sense since they do so much stop and go. Recapturing brake energy doesn't have much to do with actual engine efficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 The new Tacoma uses an Atkinson cycle it has more HP than the older 4 liter and is a 1/2 liter smaller with better fuel economy. The European Toyota's use small Atkinson (1.3L) pushing 78 MPG . Ford uses Atkinson cycle making better HP with smaller displacement engines at increased efficiency. Atkinson cycle engines have all ways been more efficient and now with modern technology will soon be the norm. Most UPS trucks up here are diesels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 The new so-called "Atkinson Cycle" 3.5 V6 coming out in the 2016 Tacomas has less max horsepower and torque then the 3.5s Toyota sold in 2006 (that weren't marketed as Atkinsons). Toyota can call the new engine anything it wants but it is NOT a true Atkinson Cycle engine. Seems to be very efficient though due to variable valve timing and part-time direct fuel injection. Is it going to be any more efficient when working hard like pulling a trailer? That remains to be proven. UPS trucks in my area are all diesel. The older ones had 300 cube Ford sixes. The hybrids use stored hydraulic pressure for brake-energy recapture instead of a electric storage like smaller hybrids. Works great for UPS type stop-and-go driving. This sort of hybrid tech has yet to show any gains for vehicles that do mostly highway driving and are worked hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 There used to be one of these being used as a camp about 30 miles from me.. I left MANY notes on the door with my contact info, but it never happened...... I love those Ultra vans...there is a club, but their membership consists of dedicated owners, who are not interested in selling Unless you are willing to mortgage the farm.... big laugh... donnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 The 3.5 Tacoma has more HP than the 4 liter they used from 05 -15 The truck engine is not used in any thing else all though some engine had the same displacement. The 05-15 V6 all had variable valve timing. I have no problem pulling my trailers with the 4 liter. Back in the days of the 300 UPS Ford's they were replacing them with Chrysler slat 6's My neighbor at the time was a shop Forman for UPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 I was a UPS mechanic early 80s in central NY. No such thing as a "shop foreman" there at the time. UPS mechanics were non-UPS employees and hired each year as independent contractors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Back to the can a Ultravan work with a hybrid motor. They start out at 3400 lbs curb weight and JD thinks loaded it's going to weigh 6000 lbs? What are you loading it with, bricks? A Lexus RX runs quite nicely with the Hybrid motor and they weigh in at around 4500 lbs. Add to that fuel efficiency in a hybrid all relate to electric power. Bet you could put 1000 watts of solar on that roof. Flexible panels would come to about 40 lbs and be flush with the roof Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 Back to the can a Ultravan work with a hybrid motor. They start out at 3400 lbs curb weight and JD thinks loaded it's going to weigh 6000 lbs? What are you loading it with, bricks? A Lexus RX runs quite nicely with the Hybrid motor and they weigh in at around 4500 lbs. Add to that fuel efficiency in a hybrid all relate to electric power. Bet you could put 1000 watts of solar on that roof. Flexible panels would come to about 40 lbs and be flush with the roof Linda S I've read specs posted by owners who scaled at weights of 5800 lbs. 5500 lbs. pounds is considered "normal." I didn't ask them if they carry bricks, nor have I asked anyone here who has a Toyota RV that weighs that much or more. The Ultravans are also 8 feet high (wind resistance). Fuel efficiency in a "hybrid" does not always relate to electric power either. Some hybrid systems - like used in UPS trucks use no electric at all. They use hydraulic-energy storage and hydraulic motors instead of battery banks and electric motors. All to recapture otherwise watsed brake energy If on a highway and not braking much - the systems are pretty useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 By the way - the road test of the Ultravan done by Trailer Life in the August 1969 issue shows it as having a "dry weight" of 4150 lbs. when equipped with the optional generator. The 30 gallon gasoline tank when filled adds 190 more lbs. That comes to 4340 lbs. Fill the propane tank with 35 lbs. of propane and it's up to 4375 lbs. Fill the 50 gallon fresh water tank and that is another 415 lbs. That is now up to 4790 lbs. Stick in three probably less-then average weight adults at 175 lbs. each and that adds another 525 lbs. Now it's up to 5315 lbs. and NO cargo has been loaded in yet. No bricks either. If the waste tank if full to capacity - it is also 50 gallons and can add another 415 lbs. (hopefully someone dumps it). The road-test gives it a "touring weight" of 5850 lbs. Does not sound far off to me. Trailer Life reported fuel mileage at 14-15 MPG. I owned a 1960 Corvair two-door many years with the same engine and got 19-21 MPG on the highway. It weighed a little over 3000 lbs. with a couple of people in it. Seems to me the Ultravan with the same engine certainly drops in MPGs a bit due to the weight and wind resistance. A really neat rig but as far as loaded weight and fuel mileage - pretty close to the same as many Toyota RVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 In the 1966 brochure the GVWR was 5000 lbs. The whole idea of the darn thing was that it was lighter than most passenger vehicles. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 In the 1966 brochure the GVWR was 5000 lbs. The whole idea of the darn thing was that it was lighter than most passenger vehicles. Linda S The idea of something sold as a 22 foot long, 8 foot high motorhome made to hold several people, with a bathroom, kitchen, beds, cargo, 50 gallon water tank, 50 gallon waste tank, 30 gallon gasoline tank, etc. is kind of absurd. Nothing new there and for someone who knows a lot about Toyota (and other RVs) - it should come as no surprise. GM got in trouble with selling Chevy Blazers with Chinook-built Chalets that were overloaded before any passengers got in. Toyota tried selling their first Chinook motorhomes (Round Trippers) that also were overloaded as soon as someone got in. And what about the many Toyota RVs talked about in this forum? There are many MUCH heavier than the OEM paperwork would suggest. No surprises as I see it. Do you thing the people doing the road test in the 1969 Trailer Life article were lying? Seems to me they really like it and in 1969 - a 5800 lb. loaded motorhome was considered pretty light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 By 1969 the Ultravan was powered by the V8 corvette engine which added 1500 lbs to the design. Economy and weight weren't much a concern back then remember. May have still looked cute but it was a different vehicle. The issue here is the inventor was able to make an amazing light fuel efficient vehicle. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 By 1969 the Ultravan was powered by the V8 corvette engine which added 1500 lbs to the design. Corvette engine??? No, they installed a low performance 307 V8. 307 with 2 barrel Rochester carb. No such thing ever used in any Corvette. In model year 1969 both versions were available. E.g. with a Corvair V6 or a Chevy V8. The Ultravan started out with the smaller, 80 horse Corvair engine at 140 cubic inches. Then moved up to the 164 cubic inch Corvair engine rated at 110 max. horse. Then the 307 V8 which is a 327 V8 block with a piston bore of a 283. That configuration was never used in any Corvettes. 265, 283, and 327 engines -yes. My point is that many small motorhomes are light when sold empty and option-less. When used in real life they usually get much heavier. I find the 50 gallon water and 50 gallon waste tank kind of huge for small rig like that. In 1969, the Corvair version with no options cost $8995 and could be bought at the factory in Hutchinson, Kansas. The Corvair engine in 1969 weighed around 340 lbs. The 307 V8 around 570 lbs. Both used the 2 speed Powerglide auto transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 I forgot to mention that the brand new 1969 Ultravan tested by Trailer Life Magazine in 1969 had the Corvair V6 engine; not the Chevy V8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 This ad appeared in September, 1969 showing the Ultravan now being available with the 307 V8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I was only quoting direct from Ultravan sites and from ads for it. The original design and what it ended up being after Detroit got it's hands on it seem to be 2 different things. Linda S Direct quote from Ultravan site Corvair-powered Ultra Vans have a power-to-weight ratio from 35 to 45 pounds per horsepower, comparing favorably to current motorhome ratios of up to 50 pounds or more. When the V-8 Corvette Ultra was introduced, even though the new design added 1,500 pounds, the increased horsepower of the V-8 dropped the power-to-weight ratio to 30 pounds per horsepower, providing sparkling (almost sport-car) performance. It can cruise easily at 70 mph, climb hills in 'Drive' and give a respectable 12 to 15 miles per gallon at 60 mph. The downside, was the price had climbed to over $11,000 without options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 I have no idea what they may of had on the drawing board. Just going by what they actually sold. Even with the low performance 307, seems the 25 mpg projection to be a little silly. I drove a brand new 1970 nova with a 307 with a powerglide. It got around 14 mpg best. My 1966 belair with a 283 got around 12 mpg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 I meant 15, not 25 mpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 I was only quoting direct from Ultravan sites and from ads for it. The original design and what it ended up being after Detroit got it's hands on it seem to be 2 different things. Linda S Direct quote from Ultravan site Corvair-powered Ultra Vans have a power-to-weight ratio from 35 to 45 pounds per horsepower, comparing favorably to current motorhome ratios of up to 50 pounds or more. When the V-8 Corvette Ultra was introduced, even though the new design added 1,500 pounds, the increased horsepower of the V-8 dropped the power-to-weight ratio to 30 pounds per horsepower, providing sparkling (almost sport-car) performance. It can cruise easily at 70 mph, climb hills in 'Drive' and give a respectable 12 to 15 miles per gallon at 60 mph. The downside, was the price had climbed to over $11,000 without options. That citation from the Ultravan Website is not claiming any Corvette V8 was used in that van. It is being called - unofficially -the "Corvette Ultravan" because it uses a Corvette independent-suspension type rear-axle - like the Datsun 240Z sports car did. NOT because of the engine which had nothing to do with any Corvette heritage. And hey - I'm not bad-mouthing the Ultravan. Early on - I think it was extremely innovative. No getting away from the fact though that it was a motorhome and gained a lot of weight when loaded with gear, people, and liquids. I know where I can buy one in bad shape for $500 (maybe). Just not sure if I want another huge project OR a motorhome with virtually NO cabin heat or defroster. I used to be a Corvair fanatic and loved them. Ralph Nader's book partially about the dangers of them was idiotic (Unsafe At Any Speed). Great rigs for summer driving. Awful in the winter unless you want to drive with a gasoline heater on all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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