WME Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Put it all back together and see how the stove works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 And...I'm back. I unscrewed the attachment to the fridge, and heard a bunch of gurgling. So I unscrewed an attachment at an elbow where the hard lines screw into the regulator. Probably about an ounce or so of nasty blackish liquid drained out. I'm assuming that was my problem. So, I wouldn't mind your thoughts on that. But along with that...I damaged part of that elbow, so I'll be stopping into an RV or propane place. So my question, if you have an idea, is do you think that junk ruined the regulator? None flowed out of the regulator side, only the side that attaches to the regulator and heads to my appliances. But in case whatever place I bring it to insists on replacing the regulator, I'd just like your opinion on whether they're trying to get more money out of me, or just being realistic... So for now I'm without a stove or fridge. What I am seeing on the internet discussions regarding your description of what you found is you have to start with draining and cleaning out the propane tank as the sludge may be residing in the bottom of the tank. But if you have iron gas line pipes that could also be the source. If no iron pipes for sure its the bottom of the tank that has the accumulation. Then work your way through the whole system cleaning the oil contamination out of every inch of all of it. But this is the point at which I can't take you much further other than with finding articles about it on the internet and if you need help with that let me know as I am on a high speed connection. We know of course that people can replace components on their own RV gas lines using care and carefully testing for leaks. It won't be all that difficult to flush out a length of copper tube. There are instructions in manuals for how to clean the various fittings on the propane appliances. So this problem is a PITA but not unsolvable. One thing you must be careful to do is back up the turning of the fittings properly so you don't kink the lines when you take things apart and/or put them back together as copper is very soft. If you got to an RV place for parts ask them for an estimate of the work involved. Its always nice to know the monetary value of the time you might end up having to put into the job. At least it will make you feel better if you DIY the project to know how much money you are saving. I don't know what your knowelge base is so please don't be offended by my posting a couple of basic videos. They are here just in case you need them or newbies want to learn more about the propane system stuff. How to flair a gas line for a replacement section. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRGn9MjQnGY Bending copper tubing...springs do work but this gadget is more reliable for a smooth bend with no kinks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43P6fMWx0yI They are likely to have the tools you need at Harbor Freight or other hardware and plumbing stores as well as at RV stores. But remember typically every plumbing job takes a bunch of trips to the store so don't try to fix it out in the boon docks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Propane has oil in it it's is not unusual to find some in the system. The feed for the propane lines are at the top of the tank so anything in the bottom of the tank will stay there. Propane boils at pretty much anything above -40*. It is the propane vapor you’re burning not the liquid. Low spots in flex lines or copper loops can collect oil and generally it’s not a big problem but excess can be. If you think the pressure is low have a propane gas outfit check it for you it is registered in inch of water and should be about 11". If the pressure is low it would be a good ideal to replace the regulator because if it's an old one it will only be a single stage regulator. That being said they are not real expensive and will be adjusted at the factory so replacing it may be an option. There is one other thing to take into consideration if the fridge works fine on electric power is draft. The electric element is fixed to the boiler assembly the gas relays on a flame and it needs a draft to transfer the heat to the boiler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 Ok. Can't put it back together since I damaged a section of pipe. So first things first: replace that. Karin I did find some stuff online yesterday about people having to drain the black oil out of their lines every now and then, and that fixing their appliance issues. I don't know if it will fix mine. No worries, my knowledge base, as with most stuff, is more or less 0. It would be nice to be able to bend and flare pipe myself...Cheaper than paying a shop obviously. I may not have to take it to a shop. When I bent the piece yesterday, I told myself "ok stop, before you break anything else, and take it to a shop. Stop messing with it". But then I took a little time out and went back and was able to get that full damaged link off with no further damage. So in theory I can just have a place make me a new piece and install myself. Then it's a matter of seeing if things are improved. My regulator is new as of a couple years ago, so it's modern. I'll see about getting the system pressure tested, though, as that's a good idea. My plan was to hang out in southern Utah, spending as little as possible, while I wait to hear on jobs. So I'm hesitant to be throwing money at this, especially labor costs. But...I don't want to be dealing with ice and coolers and cooking outside on the coleman stove if I don't have to, so we'll see. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I believe that code now says that copper needs to be double flared that is missing in the utube site. Years back a single flare was OK personally I won't use a single flare it is not strong enough and they often crack if over tightened. Regardless any fitting needs to be carefully tested after it's made up water drips on the floor propane goes boom. If you make up copper it is a good ideal to fasten it some how so it does not vibrate it is a soft metal and flexing will break it over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 Well I found an RV shop so I'll stop in tomorrow morning to see what they have for parts. Literally thousands of RVs in Moab and nothing for propane or RV parts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Propane has oil in it it's is not unusual to find some in the system. The feed for the propane lines are at the top of the tank so anything in the bottom of the tank will stay there. Propane boils at pretty much anything above -40*. It is the propane vapor you’re burning not the liquid. Low spots in flex lines or copper loops can collect oil and generally it’s not a big problem but excess can be. If you think the pressure is low have a propane gas outfit check it for you it is registered in inch of water and should be about 11". If the pressure is low it would be a good ideal to replace the regulator because if it's an old one it will only be a single stage regulator. That being said they are not real expensive and will be adjusted at the factory so replacing it may be an option. There is one other thing to take into consideration if the fridge works fine on electric power is draft. The electric element is fixed to the boiler assembly the gas relays on a flame and it needs a draft to transfer the heat to the boiler. Yes indeed things do tend to remain sitting in the bottom of tanks....when they are not going through pot holes and over speed bumps and sudden braking. So I will still stand by the concept that if you see a lot of black oil residue near the propane tank then the tank might need cleaning as it could be a possible source. Montana Chinook has indicated that he intends to have the fridge running on propane while he is driving. But your advice on propane system is certainly more extensive than mine as I don't have years of experience with propane in motorhomes as I decided not to have built in propane appliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'll add to things, then, to say that I definitely read about the crap coming from the propane tank, too, but that it more likely came from the rubber lines, if you have them, and especially if you have loops in your rubber line (like I do) because it's too long for the stretch between the tank and regulator. When I pulled the hose out of the tank connection, it looked squeaky clean. It was from the connection at the other end of the regulator, up a ways into the copper piping that I heard gurgling, and had the black stuff come out. I always used to drive with the propane, but I've been planning to go 12V from now on. I only mentioned trying out propane while driving because I was going to do it as a test. I'm going to talk to the place tomorrow and see if a) they're even helpful or just want to charge me hundreds of dollars or b ) they have the parts for me to do it myself, after they flare the fittings for me c) if they think a new regulator is in order. It's Jeep Safari down here so things are crazy. Hopefully they aren't swamped. It's literally (not in the way people seem to use the term today...actually literally) like an RV park for a ten mile radius all around Moab on the BLM land. Whole cities of RVs set up, flagpoles and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 One step at a time is always a sensible approach If it fixes the issue great, if not or if it recurs quickly take the next step. Have fun in Moab. I have friends who like to go there. They used to go in a Westfalia but just changed over to a Road Trek Van. Job hunting... good luck and hope you find a great employer and co-workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Yes indeed things do tend to remain sitting in the bottom of tanks....when they are not going through pot holes and over speed bumps and sudden braking. So I will still stand by the concept that if you see a lot of black oil residue near the propane tank then the tank might need cleaning as it could be a possible source. Montana Chinook has indicated that he intends to have the fridge running on propane while he is driving. But your advice on propane system is certainly more extensive than mine as I don't have years of experience with propane in motorhomes as I decided not to have built in propane appliances. The pressure in a propane tank is in the 100-200# range it is the pressure of the boiling propane. Liquid in a propane line is a no-no, as the propane is burned off the liquid level goes down it's all ways is lower than the outlet of the tank that is the reason they need to remain up right. The new tanks have a float inside of the tank that shuts off the flow of liquid propane as they are filled this ensures that there is little chance of liquid propane entering the supply lines. It is possible for the vapor to carry small contaminates and oil and they can end up in the camper lines they come mainly from the production of propane and are light enough to float on the liquid. This generally is not a problem because of the very small amount and the fact they usually stay put in the lines at the lower points. From what we have seen oil is the bigger problem. I had a Mr Buddy heater that was plagued with oil issues because the passages were so tiny the MR Buddy people sold inline filters to try and remove the oil. In natural gas system they install a short vertical iron pipe at the entrance to the heater as the gas enters the heaver oil and junk falls to the bottom of the pipe and is emptied during normal services. I don't claim to be an expert but this is some of the stuff you learn when you have to deal with propane as I do all summer long at a large campground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 That's what I first found online, was the Mr Buddy stuff. Since I was putting the word "filter" into my search, because of that paper filter in my fridge. My tank is a horizontal mount tank, if that makes any difference. Jobs are just seasonal, so even if they aren't great, they're pretty temporary. Not ready to commit to something permanent yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 That's what I first found online, was the Mr Buddy stuff. Since I was putting the word "filter" into my search, because of that paper filter in my fridge. My tank is a horizontal mount tank, if that makes any difference. Jobs are just seasonal, so even if they aren't great, they're pretty temporary. Not ready to commit to something permanent yet. Nope it still has the outlet on the top of the tank some may fool you the valve maybe on the side but the outlet is on the top of the tank inside above the liquid. Here is the reasoning If the propane is released as a liquid it instantly boils as the pressure is released and expands to many times it's size and becomes a huge ball of explosive gas not a pleasant thought. Yeah I'm retired just work part time to keep my self from going nuts, in the winter I do wiring for an electrical contractor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding what you mean, but my tank is horizontal. The only outlet/valve etc is on what, yes, you could call the "top", but that top is on its side. Anyway, I found new hose and a new regulator, but the regulator is actually laid out different enough from mine that it won't work, and the shorter rubber hose won't work either. It did just barely reach, but leaked at the tank and seemed to freeze solid inside..(!). Not sure what was up with that. So I got it all back together with the old pigtail and regulator. We'll see how the fridge does but I don't have high hopes. Maybe I just don't remember right, but the stove still seems to be sub-par. There just isn't any difference at all between medium and high. At least for the time being I can cook inside, and I have heat. Supposed to be in the 20s the next couple nights. But long term, it's just frustrating to not have the fridge. I spent a lot of money on it, and having to haul a cooler around and deal with getting new ice all the time and stuff getting wet in the cooler and in a tiny Chinook that cooler takes up ALL of my floor space! RANT Honestly I'm a bit scared that a pro is going to take one look at my setup and refuse to work on it, unless he can completely re-do it. Not that it isn't safe...it's just awkward, hard to work on, old, etc. But, we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 There are probably a few folks in the Expedition Portal who might be able to give you a referral to someone in the MOAB area who can help you sort out your problems. As in a sensible repair shop that does good work but is not a rip-off shop. Just make sure they have good business insurance coverage . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Your fridge makes an excellent cooler. I used mine for months before I got my fridge fixed by putting a dish pan in the bottom with block ice in it. Could you post a pic of your existing regulator and tell us the length of the hose you need. Maybe one of us could find you ones that work. Think the post office still does the care of postmaster thing so you could pick it up at a nearby post office. Not sure about that but could check on it Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Gas (propane etc.) workers have to be certified (repair, new installs and so on) so if you find a shop that doesn't mind working on RV's you should be fine. As far as your tank it's just a horizontal tank my Nova Star had one it's a 30# tank they are designed a bit differently than a vertical one but the outlet is way above the liquid. If you have a leak it will freeze at that point, propane is dangerous some things are best left to the experts a water leak is inconvenient a gas leak could be fatal. I know it must be real frustrating to deal with some thing that is new and should work hopefully you can find a service dept that will take an interest in your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Gas (propane etc.) workers have to be certified (repair, new installs and so on) so if you find a shop that doesn't mind working on RV's you should be fine. As far as your tank it's just a horizontal tank my Nova Star had one it's a 30# tank they are designed a bit differently than a vertical one but the outlet is way above the liquid. If you have a leak it will freeze at that point, propane is dangerous some things are best left to the experts a water leak is inconvenient a gas leak could be fatal. I know it must be real frustrating to deal with some thing that is new and should work hopefully you can find a service dept that will take an interest in your problem. Please explain to me how the gas outlet is above the liquid. This one looks like mine. Regulator attaches to the round knob on the bottom right, far below the fill level http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/lp-gas/mh-lp-tank.jpg Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 A picture is worth a thousand words....http://www.mantank.com/products/rvproducts.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yeah I don't get it, unless the tank is designed to only be filled half way. I figure I'll go to St George or something to find an RV shop. I'm only around Moab because I'm having some mail delivered here, general delivery (to answer your other question). I figured it's a good outpost to come every other week or so, get mail and re-supply and take a shower and do laundry and all that. But there's nothing tying me to Moab otherwise, and the fact that there's so little there in the way of RV stuff is more reason to just go somewhere else. My fridge was 32 this morning, on gas. I think it was in the 40s outside, so still not great, but...for now I'm using my cooler, and the fridge will keep things like butter and chocolate and other stuff that doesn't really need to be refrigerated cold enough not to melt. I did the block ice thing last summer when it first stopped working. It works, but takes up 1/3 of the space. I bought a tupperware bin a block of ice would fit in, and would also fit in my fridge. Works, but I have to remember to empty the melt water at pretty much every stop, or I've got water all over my fridge and running down the floor of the camper. Works...but annoying. So yeah, there are all sorts of work arounds and I'm using them. I just get annoyed that I'm having to use inconvenient work arounds at all. So for now I'm using the old regulator and hose. Everything works. Which is good cause it's supposed to get down into the 20s the next couple nights! But I plan to get to a bigger town and see about replacing the hose with a shorter one that works, and getting the correct regulator. If I can find someone (hopefully someone other than Camping World which I know is in St George) to test how much pressure my fridge is getting, and maybe look at my set up and tell me what they think for fairly cheap, I'll definitely do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I've used these folks when we had a major coach A/C problem when it was 118 in the shade. http://www.utahrvzz.com/map-and-directions-dealership--hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Cool, thanks. Looks like just outside St George, which is a plus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yeah I don't get it, unless the tank is designed to only be filled half way. I figure I'll go to St George or something to find an RV shop. I'm only around Moab because I'm having some mail delivered here, general delivery (to answer your other question). I figured it's a good outpost to come every other week or so, get mail and re-supply and take a shower and do laundry and all that. But there's nothing tying me to Moab otherwise, and the fact that there's so little there in the way of RV stuff is more reason to just go somewhere else. My fridge was 32 this morning, on gas. I think it was in the 40s outside, so still not great, but...for now I'm using my cooler, and the fridge will keep things like butter and chocolate and other stuff that doesn't really need to be refrigerated cold enough not to melt. I did the block ice thing last summer when it first stopped working. It works, but takes up 1/3 of the space. I bought a tupperware bin a block of ice would fit in, and would also fit in my fridge. Works, but I have to remember to empty the melt water at pretty much every stop, or I've got water all over my fridge and running down the floor of the camper. Works...but annoying. So yeah, there are all sorts of work arounds and I'm using them. I just get annoyed that I'm having to use inconvenient work arounds at all. So for now I'm using the old regulator and hose. Everything works. Which is good cause it's supposed to get down into the 20s the next couple nights! But I plan to get to a bigger town and see about replacing the hose with a shorter one that works, and getting the correct regulator. If I can find someone (hopefully someone other than Camping World which I know is in St George) to test how much pressure my fridge is getting, and maybe look at my set up and tell me what they think for fairly cheap, I'll definitely do that. Liquid propane weights 4.2# per gallon so there is only around 7 gallons in a full 30# tank and yes it probably is true that it's only about 1/2 full. The way the horizontal tanks are set up the bleed valve has to be opened to fill the tank and as soon as the liquid starts to come out of the valve you know right away it's time to close it and it's a given your going to do that pretty much right away while your on your knees, it's fairly dramatic and damn cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'll try to explain his a little further. The big fill tanks dispense liquid propane from the bottom of their tanks the pumps that move the fluid only go to a fixed pressure so when the person filling the tank does not open the bleed valve nothing happens so he opens the valve and either air or a small amount of propane gas comes out of the bleeder until the liquid reaches the bleeder then great clouds of escaping liquid propane vaporizes letting you know right away it's time to close the bleeder. The pump is still running but can not force any propane in because the boiling liquid now has caused the pressure to exceed the pressure the pump is capable of producing and every thing stops flowing then you close the big valve on the tank and disconnect the hose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 That does make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I still have the propane regulator that was on the horizontal tank in my Sunrader. It works. I will post a photo of it tomorrow and see if it is of any use to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Thanks! I mean they aren't that expensive, but any bit of money I don't spend is more money left in the bank What I need is a vertical regulator, with the "in" side facing up, "out" side facing down, when the vent is facing down. The one the store had looked just right, until I looked closer, and even though the "in" and "out" were in the same place, the vent was on the side, so it needed to be mounted horizontally instead of vertically. There don't seem to be regulators specific to horizontal or vertical tanks, just different configurations based on how your set ups pipes come at it. My lines have been bent/built around the in facing up, out facing down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Thanks! I mean they aren't that expensive, but any bit of money I don't spend is more money left in the bank What I need is a vertical regulator, with the "in" side facing up, "out" side facing down, when the vent is facing down. The one the store had looked just right, until I looked closer, and even though the "in" and "out" were in the same place, the vent was on the side, so it needed to be mounted horizontally instead of vertically. There don't seem to be regulators specific to horizontal or vertical tanks, just different configurations based on how your set ups pipes come at it. My lines have been bent/built around the in facing up, out facing down. Sounds like this one might be right. http://www.amazon.com/Camco-59313-Vertical-Propane-Regulator/dp/B0024ECBMA Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I have a Marshall 2 90-01J I don't remember how it was mounted as its been 3 years since I took it out. But if you can get a new vertical one for $20.00 that makes a lot more sense than paying to ship a used one across country. Here is a photo of mine. The gas flow direction arrow on the underneath side points towards the right in this photo. I can take more photos if you need them as I brought it back to the office with me. The length of the regulator is 5.75" It is a two stage regulator. It is a discontinued model. If you read the model off your old regulator you might be able to find the newer replacement model number for it listed on a website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 The one Linda posted is the right one, and yeah, for that money, I agree. I really don't think my tank has a "replacement model" of any specific type. Technically I don't even think it came with a 2-stage regulator originally. It's just a matter of getting a two stage regulator that will fit in my space and line up right. No correct model number or anything. Maybe I'll try getting the amazon one sent to Moab and see what that does, before driving all the way to St George and paying someone to look at it. We'll see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Most likely it did not come with a two stage regulator but a replacement should be they are a safer set up.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Oh yeah, I'm definitely going two-stage, and what it has now is a two-stage. My point was just that there likely isn't some model number which is a direct replacement for what the Chinook came with, "stock". It probably came with a one stage, and I know I don't want to put one of those in. So I just need to find any old two stage regulator which is oriented the way I need it to be. Beyond that, there's nothing more specific I need to look for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The one Linda posted is the right one, and yeah, for that money, I agree. I really don't think my tank has a "replacement model" of any specific type. Technically I don't even think it came with a 2-stage regulator originally. It's just a matter of getting a two stage regulator that will fit in my space and line up right. No correct model number or anything. Maybe I'll try getting the amazon one sent to Moab and see what that does, before driving all the way to St George and paying someone to look at it. We'll see... Go for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 Stopped into Price for lunch and went to an RV store I saw on the way in, and they directed me to a propane store in town. Guy just let me show him which regulator was laid out like mine from what he had in the back, and exactly what length pigtail would work best. He just cut it to that length and put the threaded ends on, and I was back on my way. Hooked it up this afternoon. We'll see if it helps the fridge at all, but at least as of right now, I've got no oil in my lines, and a new regulator and much shorter pigtail which doesn't do two loops before it screws in. Moab kinda worked out the same way for getting the pipe flared, except harder. Everywhere I went, they sent me somewhere else. The 5th stop was an appliance store, and they had no idea what I was talking about. The only thing that saved me was that an install guy from the shop happened to be up front BS-ing with the front desk women, and he said he'd take a look if I had the piece on hand. He just took me in the back, cut the old pipe to get the fittings off, and flared a new piece and sent me on my way with no charge. If he hadn't been standing there, I would have left Moab figuring there was no one there who could do it... One thing I also know now, is that if it only gets up into the 50s during the day, and 20-30s at night, my fridge will still freeze everything in it when it's on High. This was before the new pigtail and regulator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail powered Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Good progress hope all works out now. If not next up on the trouble shooting list: Remember to do a pressure test at the end by the fridge to eliminate the possibility of a partial blockage in the gas line as a possible cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 Yep. That's the last thing I'll do, since it'll require paying for labor. But if I have to do it, I have to do it! Might wait till I hear that I have a job before I spend that kind of money, though. Would just be nice to know that there'll be some income before I do much more. The cooler works. It's just annoying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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