Timing Read-Out Very Odd

[mrgizmow]

I have enjoyed playing with our Dolphin but realize now, the Wife and I will never use it. Have had it 4 years. Have installed solar panels, LED lights, shocks, muffler, belts, hoses ect. Runs great and was getting it check for Calif. smog. Has always passed without a glitch. I think in four years we have driven it a total of 300 miles. Prior to offering it for sale a week ago the mechanic that test drove it, says it runs fine.

Seems today, the smog guys were perplexed. They indicated the engine sounds fine and emissions are in spec. They indicated as well, the timing appears to be almost 30 degrees out of spec. They admitted that that could not be the case since the engine runs so well. I took it back to the Toyota mechanic that test drove it a week ago and he agreed, the engine runs fine. He suggested that it is possible that the pulley with the timing marks has twisted a bit on the vibration damper and now the timing mark is way out of position.

I have done a number of searches on timing, crank pulley timing mark etc to no avail. Can any of you 'old timers' provide insight as to why my engine starts, runs and pulls the camper uphill nicely, but when someone puts a timing light on the pulley, the mark is no-where in sight. Thanks guys. Gerry

[fred heath]

Years ago when you desmogged an engine, you would then "power tune" it using acceleration drag and engine ping. This would throw the timing marks way off from factory.

Won't go into details here because it sounds like you live in a "smog" state.

As long as the engine is running well with good mpg, I wouldn't worry too much.

Your mechanic would have taken action if concern was evident.

[Maineah]

You did not say what year your Toy is but if it late enough you have to jumper two pins in the diagnostic connector to check/adjust timing other wise it will be way off if you check it.The timing must be correct otherwise it would have not passed emissions. I don't remember ever seeing a balancer slip on a Toyota but it can be easily checked.

[zero]

Seems today, the smog guys were perplexed. They indicated the engine sounds fine and emissions are in spec. They indicated as well, the timing appears to be almost 30 degrees out of spec.

I'm not familiar with the inspection routine where you live. Do they actually put a timing light on it for inspection? If so - did they verify the "30 degree off" reading with a 2nd timing light to verifiy the 1st one isn't out of wack? Many timing lights have an advance-dial and can be easily made to read 30 degrees retarded or advanced.

Geez. I though New York was bad. Even with the emissions checks - it only applies to vehicles with OBDII systems.

You can pull out #1 spark plug and rotate the engine until #1 piston is at TDC of the compression-stroke. Easy to see with a borescope. You might even be able to see with just a flashlight but cannot say I've tried on a little Toyota. If the piston is at TDC and your crank-pulley shows the pointer line-up with TDC - the marks are obviously correct. Any local gunsmith, gun dealer, or mechanic ought to have a small fiberoptic bore-scope to use. I'm wondering why your mechanic did not use one to verify.

When they checked the timing - was it with the engine running fast. or at idle?

By the way I've had several rigs with custom camshafts that ran 12 degrees off spec at idle and 15 degrees off at full RPM. Not 30 degrees though. I assume if you had a custom cam you would not be passing emissions tests at engine idle.

[mrgizmow]

Thanks fellas. The particular smog shop that I go to has passed my Toy three times before. In Calif. we have to certify every two years. All equipment (engine) has to be factory stock, this applies to settings as well.

I noted that the smog mechanics did have something (jumper?) installed in a tiny flip-top box on the left side, just behind the battery. The smog mechanics did use a timing light that had a dial on it. I suspect they started out having the dial set for the factory 5 degrees. When the mark was not present, likely they kept turning the dial to capture the mark, but I am not a mechanic and am just guessing on the function of the dial. The smog guys readily admitted that the engine would not be running as well, and cleanly, or likely at all if the timing was really that far out. However, they (smog guys) had no good answer at the ready, but did confirm the engine idle setting.

As I had many commitments for the day, one being picking up the would be buyer of the Toy at a nearby bus stop. This fellow has been living in a ratty Toy for a number of years and traveling about. I told him I would sell him ours but wanted/needed to get it checked out.

The other mechanic that I mentioned has a shop nearby and specializes in Toyota's and Nissan's. The shop has been in place for years, and is right next to a VW shop I have used many time. Seems both these mechanics enjoy working on the old cars and trucks. When I brought the Dolphin in last week, the Toyota mechanic looked under the hood revved the engine a few times, said it sounded good. He then drove drove it 'down-the-hill'. Our part of town is at 1700 feet and there is a long straight stretch to the next community at 400 feet. This offers a good 14 mile test that will likely include braking, front-end alignment and condition, as well as cooling function, engine condition and transmission shifting. When he arrived back at the shop he said, this rig runs great and promptly pulled the plugs and I guess in motorcycle circles, did a plug-chop or evaluation. As his shop was right at the top of the long climb, the fact that the plugs were a nice color suggested things were in pretty good shape. He did nothing else and charged me a few bucks.

I revisited the Toyota mechanic briefly right after the failed smog test, as I was passing the shop on my way to the bus-stop to pickup the potential buyer. The Toyota guy was as well baffled with the odd timing and suggested a quick answer being the twisting of the timing pulley on the vibration damper. He indicated that he had only seen this a couple of times, but had no other explanation. Like the Smog Guys, he said there is no way the engine would perform so well if the timing was anywhere close to thirty degrees. He also suggested that it would be easy to double check the pulley, likely by doing what you folks are suggesting, but at that moment I had no extra time and he was all booked up. Thanks again, I will certainly welcome any other ideas, and as well committed to posting a detailed resolution to this odd problem when it is confirmed. Gerry

[zero]

I had that problem once on an International Harvester 304 V8. Problem was me. I forgot those IH engines do not use #1 cylinder for timing purposes like most others. Uses #8 as I recall. That can give a person a scare at first glance of the timing light.

[linda s]

It's always passed smog and you have barely driven it. No way something like that happened just sitting. Did your other mechanic check the timing too? You don't mention it. My guess is the smog shop has an equipment problem

Linda S

[mrgizmow]

As the engine runs smooth and strong, no one would have a reason to doubt it was not properly timed. The smog guys checked because they are required to "check and verify". Made an appointment with the Toyota mechanic for tomorrow morning. I am sure he will double check and note where the pulley mark is when the timing light flashes. He will pull the belts and see if he can rotate it. He indicated that he has come across one or two that he could get the outer pulley to rotate a bit independent of the crank. I will let you know. Thanks again. Gerry.

[zero]

30 degrees.off would be about two inches of slop on that crank-pulley. That's a lot.

[linda s]

When I first got mine the timing was way off. It was a dirty throttle body and poorly adjusted positioning sensor.

Linda S

[mrgizmow]

My understanding is the inner part of the pulley that is bolted to the crankshaft is 'isolated' from the V-groove pulley portion by a very dense rubber vibration damper. The Toyota guy indicated that the only way he could think of to the timing mark being off, yet the engine purring like a 'kitten' was to have the rubber to metal portion of the timing pulley compromised. Though rare, he indicated that he has had to deal with that issue.

This morning before breakfast, I drove to the shop and dropped off the Dolphin. The Toyota repair guy (that I have been consulting) indicated that he would high-lite the timing mark and double check what the Smog Guys seemed to be perplexed with. I walked to a diner and had breakfast then returned to see what the Toyota guy found out. Mark, the Toyota guy was a bit agitated, "what were those guys smoking" was what I was asked. From Mark's perspective, the timing was right on the mark (as engine performance suggested). In fairness, the smog guy is a fellow in his early 60's (younger than me) and likely had worked as a mechanic for much of his adult life. As he had the where-with-all to bring one of his younger associates over to double check what he was observing (very out-of-spec timing read-out), I suspect there was some glitch with the connection, or the timing light that was being used.

I have went to this 'Smog Shop' for years, and they have checked all of the different cars that I have owned without issue. Though many that you see in such shops (smog inspection) are just out of some comprehensive training program, I suspect my evaluator had been a qualified mechanic at some point in his life. Made an appointment with another "Smog Inspection" station for tomorrow, and I will update with their findings.

Right now, I seems like a case of 'shit happens'. It has certainly left me frustrated. I have spent extra time and money to get 'this project' completed. In fairness, it seems in 'this-day-an-age' things move so fast, and generally we are under, at least some pressure. When something pops-up that is way out of the ordinary, we are at a loss and unable to provide a viable explanation.

I made an appointment with a different shop for a new inspection a 10 a.m. tomorrow morning. I will let you folks know what happened. Thanks again. Gerry

[Vanman]

Been there done THAT!
When I bought the ford Aerostar from my company, was my company truck, it was originally registered in Sacramento calif. They have different smog as here in the bay area so I had to take it to the only guy in town who had the rollers to run it on. After killing a whole morning watching this dufus in action he informed me it would not pass as he could not see the timing marks. NOTE this truck has a sticker on the inside of the hood that states the timing is fixed and cannot be changed, as does the factory shop manual I own. Pointed this out to no avail. Took it to my regular smog guy and he laughed hard at that, marked the harmonic balancer with white paint, took it back to the dufus and by the end of the day had my smog!

Last time I had it smoged there is a new kid who demanded to check the timing with a light knowing full well that it is fixed. Says the government idiots who made up the specs made a mistake and so require it to be checked.
Couldn't figure out how to remove the inside engine cover, so I showed him that, couldn't find the proper plug wire, I couldn't help with that. I think he just gave up and gave me the smog, but next time going somewhere else. Killed an half a day for something that should be done in 45 min.
Remember where you are, this country is full of stupid people, most of 'em employed by some company or another somehow.
John

[mrgizmow]

Well, wish I had more to offer you folks in the way of 'Toy-Home' stuff. Went to the other Smog shop and then rig passed with-out a glitch. Given my concern, before they 'officially' hooked the engine up to the computer, they double checked the timing. Like my Toyota mechanic, the new Smog shop said the timing was fine at 6 degrees, though a bit over, no problem. Perhaps the original Smog shop had the jumpers in the wrong holes, his timing light was malfunctioning, or the mechanic was wearing his old glasses. Don't know. Thanks again as this forum has been very helpful. Likely with the sale of my Dolphin, I will not be back. To the few that realize forums would have little value without energy and contribution, I say thanks folks........ For those that think they don't have anything to contribute, might I say, that is likely not the case. Should you have researched a problem, but your solution was a bit different than what had been posted previously, post your insight/experience as it might be beneficial to someone else.

Our Toy-home has been a nice project for me. Though the Wife and I traveled across the great U.S of A in a 1964 VW bus in 1975, it was pretty clear that for what ever reason, I had become even more 'anal' with pre-trip planning. I seemed like I was preparing the Mars Rover, and all she needed was a soft bed, toilet and someone to keep track of where we were going. Live and learn...... Gerry