Tranny slipping at kickdown?

[zulujim]

total noob. first post here.

thank you all very much in advance.

(sorry this is so long, just wanted to be clear)

i recently bought a 93 Itasca spirit. Toyota v6. 50k original miles. 21'7" long.

i live on the central coast in ca but bought it in the valley. 2 hrs away.

when i test drove it everything seemed fine with the eng and trans. but... no hills in the valley. and on the test drive i dont think i gave her the gas hard enough to engage the transmission kickdown.

so when it was time to get her over Pacheco pass,... this is the problem that reared its ugly head.

as long as i keep a steady gas pedal all is good. but if im going around 40-50 (or faster) flat road or up a grade and give it the gas pedal ..and she kicks down.. its almost like i put it into neutral? major slippage or something? the rpm's go up but not much if any additional power to the wheels? in fact i will start loosing speed if im going up hill.

the next day after i did get it home i decided to drive around the area a little to see if i could understand the problem a little better. this is what i found out..

the truck runs great! it does not seem to have any transmission problems at all. i dont feel any slipping in any gear? it has lots of power from the start and as long as im on a flat grade and dont use the kick down it seems perfectly fine. on a flat road i can get her up to 65-75 no problem. the other thing i found out is this.. the kickdown on the lower gears is ok.

if im going slower and kick it down it works like it should. but if im going faster and its in the higher gear range.. it does kickdown,. but into a nothing of a gear? almost like i put it into neutral. (but it seems like it does try to catch very slightly to some degree). then if i let off the gas and let the tranny come out of the kickdown mode i can get power back and i can carry on as if all was normal. in short seems to work fine as long as it doesn't have to kick down. but when you have hills to climb .. gotta have it.

this is what ive done so far.. checked the tranny fluid. seems to be good. slightly above the high mark but not much. does not smell burnt. looks a little darker than new but i think its ok.

i really love my new Toyota home on wheels and ive been wanting one for a long time but im not sure what i should do next?

i can just imagine starting my new relationship with her by getting raped by a transmission shop.

if i knew for sure they were honest i would just take it in, they would fix or adjust the part that needs to be fixed and i pay the bill. but if its going to be the ole automatically getting charged the highest price possible.. just cant afford it.

any ideas on the problem?

does anyone know an honest tranny place in the Monterey/Salinas area?

thanks again.

Edited January 21, 2013 by zulujim

[waiter]

The tranny you have is different than mine. I believe yours has a torque converter lockout, where mine has a true 4th gear (overdrive) I would prefer the lockout as the 4th gear is just about useless in the Toyhouse.

Anyway, if all is well, you might consider replacing fluid and filter in the tranny.

either a purge (the tranny shop hooks a machine up and pumps all the tranny fluid out while replacing it with new fluid.

OR

a "drain and fill" (you can do this), drain the tranny, you'll get maybe 3 quarts, then refill with three quarts. drive it around for a few minutes, then repeat. On the last drain and fill, drop the pan and replace the filter (if it has one). This process will replace most of the fluid, probably 60 - 70%

You might also consider putting a can of Seafoam or some other transmission additive that would loosten up valves.

I like to try the $10 dollar fix before going to the $1,000 fix.

Good luck and keep us posted on what happens.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[linda s]

I use Lucas transmission fix in my tranny and it seems to be working great. Have heard the same from quite a few other toyhome owners too

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=29&catid=2

Linda S

[zulujim]

thanks.

my next step was going to get the fluid replaced and maybe some additive.

but i was reading anything and everything about trannys on here and some folks had some different ideas about it? some say flushing a tranny could cause additional problems with particles coming loose and plugging things up?

i really dont want to do anything more to screw it up worse if i can help it.

at 50k on the motorhome (with these problems at hand) should i...

A:

just take it in to a Jiffy Lube type place for the tranny service that they do? i dont think they drop the pan, i think somehow they just suck it out and add more? and tell them to leave some room for the Lucas type additive. with this methode im not sure if that could actually clean the screen off very well if its gunked up?

B:

find a tranny place (i dont have a good place to wrench right now) and ask them to drop the pan, clean or replace the screen, make any adjustments that need to be made and put it back together with fresh fluid and some treatment?

C:

do the drain a little and add a little. a few times with a Lucas type treatment?

D:

?????? maybe some other thing?

[zero]

thanks.

my next step was going to get the fluid replaced and maybe some additive.

but i was reading anything and everything about trannys on here and some folks had some different ideas about it? some say flushing a tranny could cause additional problems with particles coming loose and plugging things up?

It is near impossible to do a 100% flush and get all the old fluid out. There isn't any magic additive that's going to fix a transmission that has worn parts, leaking internal seals, burnt clutches, worn trans pump, etc. But if the problem is minor and your problem is related to a sticking shift or pressure valve, screwey modulator, or something else minor - some additives can make a difference. If it was mine or in my shop - the first priority would to pull the pan and inspect the filter. If you find metal debris and perhaps small metal parts laying in the bottom - it would be time to do some serious testing. If it's fairly clean - just a few dead bugs and no metal - I change the filter, change what fluid I could and try it. A reputable shop (if you can find one) can put gauges into the trans and check operating pressures in all the gears. How you determine what shop is reputable is beyond me. I do my own auto trans rebuilding. I hate doing it and every trans requires a set of special tools. But in my area - all the shops I'm aware of are legal-crooks. My E40D trans went in my Ford F250 diesel not long ago and a local name-brand shop wanted $3500. I did it with better parts for $800. That savings took the sting out of buying a bunch of esoteric tools I'll rarely use.

[linda s]

Yes do it yourself. When I first got mine I had a complete flush at a tranny shop. They put the gasket in wrong and completely stripped the threads for 2 of the bolts that hold the pan in place. I had to rethread and install larger bolts and put in a new gasket myself. Tranny still wasn't shifting better and thats when I tried the Lucas stuff. I don't know how it works but that was almost nine years ago and it's still running fine. I have changed the fluid maybe 2 or 3 more times since then always adding about a pint of Lucas tranny fix. In California so most trips are to the mountains so tranny is given a real workout too

Linda S

[Derek up North]

I've an Astro which won't shift into 3rd or 4th. My local tranny shop isn't interested in just changing the solenoid that controls this. Only interested in selling me a completely rebuilt tranny that'll cost twice what it's worth. The Astro is currently one of my growing number of 'garden sheds'.

Option D(?):-

I'm no tranny wizard. Some say that changing transmission fluid after it's been in there 'too long' will dislodge cr@p that's built up because the new fluid is very detergent. Some of the same people have advocated dropping the pan, cleaning or replacing the screen/filter and then putting in the old fluid after filtering it. Not sure where your 50k miles fit in the spectrum. The Toyota Service Schedule calls for the fluid to be replaced every 15k miles/24 months.

[90toydolphin]

i agree with starting with the less pricey solutions. couple of questions come to mind, was the OD turned on and the slippage came when shifting down to third? or OD off and shifting down from third to second? i've driven mine with V6 over pacheco pass a few times, i've always had OD off and manually shifted down to second and ran about 40-45 to the top. i didn't wait for it to try to shift down, once it got down to 45 i just manually shifted it. i've had it kick down out of OD a few times just going down 5 with slight climbs and i've noticed a slight moment between OD and third that there seems to be no gear and some reving, but only maybe a second or two, but i always just shut off the OD at that point. i've never really thought of it as a problem. i have a 2002 dakota with V6 and if i let it kick down out of OD on it's own it does the same thing. maybe at 65-70 the toy wouldn't shift down on HWY 5, but i don't push it that fast.

like you mentioned about having it totally flushed by a shop and serviced and worrying about breaking stuff loose causing more problems, i had a 94 GMC that hadn't had the transmission serviced like that for about 150,000 miles, a shop i had had good experience with advised me not to have them do it unless it was really acting up for that very reason. having the pan dropped and changing filter/screen and topping off would probably be a good idea, not overly drastic or costly and if there is a lot of metal and parts in the bottom then you know you need to start planning to spend a few $. hopefully someone here can point you to a good transmission shop in your area, has to be one there.

[Derek up North]

hopefully someone here can point you to a good transmission shop in your area, has to be one there.

I've no personal experience, but from what I've read AAMCO is unlikely to be on that list!

[linda s]

Worse case scenario I don't think you are too far from me and I now have a really good tranny shop here in San Jose that I trust. They did my Explorer transmission 3 years ago for a very cheap price and no problems. Less than half the price of any others. I asked about possibly working on the Toy home if I ever needed it and they said no problem

Linda S

[zero]

I've an Astro which won't shift into 3rd or 4th. My local tranny shop isn't interested in just changing the solenoid that controls this. Only interested in selling me a completely rebuilt tranny that'll cost twice what it's worth. The Astro is currently one of my growing number of 'garden sheds'.

Astrovan with the 4L60E has all the solenoids at the bottom where they are real easy to get at. 3-4 has always been the problem area in the 700R4/4L60E series.

To the guy that has the Toyota trans trouble. I don't which trans you have. A A43D and the A340E both have four distinct gears. The A340E also has a lockup clutch in the converter that sort of acts like a 5th gear.

Try to do a little self-diagnosis by writing stuff down. Note that if you DO have a A340E with lockup and the lockup itself went bad -you would not get total slippage like you seem to be getting.

When your Toyota shfiter is in high gear - these are the things being used in each gear. The letter-numbers are abbreviations for major components inside the trans. The main thing here is - if you have just one gear that is slipping -you look through the letter-numbers and see if you can find one item that is ONLY used in that gear.

Note that when in 3rd (not sure if that's the gear you've got trouble with) in an A43D, 3rd is the only gear to use F_0 which is a one-way clutch. If the gear that slips is not using anything unique only to itself the problem is likely in the controls somewhere.

A43D:

1st - C_0, C_1, F_0, and F_2

2nd- C_0, C_1, B_2, F_0, and F_1

3rd - C_0, C_2, O_p, B_2, F_0

4th (OD) C_1, O_p, B_0, B_2

A340E (with lock-up)

1st - C_0, C_1, F_0, and F_2

2nd- C_0, C_1, B_2, F_0, and F_1

3rd - C_0, C_1, C_2, B_2, and F_0

4th (OD) - C_1, C_2, B_0, B_2

[fred heath]

Not sure with the later automatic transmissions but as a stopgap fix try manually downshifting on the big hills. Just remember to put it back in drive.

[zero]

I've no personal experience, but from what I've read AAMCO is unlikely to be on that list!

I actually had a torque converter stolen by a transmission shop in Albany, NY. I wish I could of gotten them arrested. Hard to prove though.

Long story short. My trans got broke-down in Canada due to a huge leak. I worked with the trans guy for a full day to fix it. We pulled it all part and only fixed as needed. While we had it apart we found out my diesel truck had a custom made HD torque converter in installed by a previous owner. The trans guy in the shop remarked that the specific converter would cost him near $1000 in Canada.

Six months later while home in NY the truck started shifting funny one morning. It had a 1 year international warranty on it - good in USA and Canada. So, just so I didn't screw up the warranty I called a trans shop in Albany NY. If it was minor and covered, I was going to let them fix it. I left the truck overnight. Next day I get a phone call. The guy on the phone tells me the trans is completely worn out. Everything was bad according to him. I knew right away that was pure BS. I told him I would take the truck back and he then told me it was already all apart. I almost had a stroke. I hopped in my car and drove up there. When I arrived, he had the trans all laid out in pieces and show me the damage. Problem was - it was NOT my trans. I knew right way because I had heli-arced the bell-housing and this one had no weld repair on it. It also had a stock torque converter (not my custom converter). I told the guy I knew he was lying and I called the NYS hot-line for consumer fraud. THAT was even a worse mistake. I took a full year for the investigation to be concluded. At the end I got a "free" rebuilt tran (even though I know my old one was fine) along with a standard torque converter (never got back my custom converter). Also got an extra $500 in cash. NEVER, EVER again will I go to a trans shop. I do all myself now. I suspect the original problem was a simple adjustment . The rebuilt trans developed the same shifting problem a few days after I got it home. It was a simple adjustment on the "FIPL" switch. Basically a variable resistor throttle-position-sensor on the fuel injection pump. Loosen two bolts, moved it a bit, and all trouble was gone.

[Maineah]

What it sounds like to me is one of two things throttle cable miss adjustment or your dropping into second gear on a hard down shift. If it kicks down too soon the cable can be adjusted, if you are mating it the revs will go high because it went into 2nd and it will seem like there is no power because it is in a gear too low for the speed. In the fact it works fine otherwise I do not believe there is a trans issue. What you can try is manually shift it into 3rd (turn off O/D) and see how it behaves or duplicate it by shifting to 2nd at something no greater then say 50 .There is nothing wrong with a fluid change a good shop with a flush machine can change all the fluid converter and all not a bad ideal if the fluid is does not have a burnt smell to it.The filter is nothing more then a screen door if you pull the pan you will find some metal that is normal don't panic you'll find brass and aluminum in any trans with 50K even one that is working perfectly that used to be a good selling point for shady shops to sell a transmission job they would hold up the pan to show you the metal. That trans is an all clutch trans it has no bands to brake or mall adjust they are a pretty good unit considering what they are asked to do and still lasting 150K+ .

[zero]

Yes, many good working tranmissions will have small bits of metal that will shine in the bottom of the pan (like panning for gold). There won't be any substantial metal parts though in a good working trans unless they are left-overs from the last rebuild. Somebody that knows what he/she is doing can easily tell the difference.

As to complete flushing? The flushing machines come close but I doubt there is anything on this planet that can totally flush a system. Some stuff will always be trapped in the torque converter, cooler, etc. It's the main reason why a transmission shop giving a warranty is not going to reuse a torque converter - even if it was working perfectly before the rebuild. The hi-end shops cut the converters in half, inspect and clean, and then weld back together and balance when done. That is except on some heavy trucks that have torque converters that are bolted together.

[zulujim]

man! you guys (and gals) are really impressive with your knowledge base.

thank you for all your unique points of view.

ive been driving this thing around town just to get the hang of it. and its really fun.. no matter where you go, there you are.. but with your house. lol..

i think im going to start with having someone drop the pan, replace the screen and fill it back up with fluid. adjustments.. if any.

and save a little room for the Amsoil. drive it around .. see how it goes. maybe i will get lucky.

if this does not work ,, i am interested in following up with the person that said they may know someone in san jose that is honest. i would consider taking it there. i have a buddy that lives over by ebay. if you could pm me that info that would be much appreciated

also thanks to the person saying that it could be just an adjustment problem. and it could be kicking down to 2nd instead of third. that makes sense.

but ... im hoping someone who owns a tranny repair business could just be honest and do a real diagnostic. try the adjustment instead of just telling me "you need a new transmission".

on the other hand i dont really know the true history behind this yotahome. she could have been abused. i just dont know.

if the real outcome is.. she needs a new tranny.. i will do it. just hate getting the ole bs run around.

seems like some service writers get paid only on commission?

[Maineah]

In your case I would seek out an independent transmission shop if you can find one that is a member of ATRA that would be even better. The flushing machines are not cleaning machines they use no solvent the ideal is to replace old fluid nothing more and they do a good job of it. Generally changing the fluid in a malfunctioning transmission will not help a thing. Fluid changes are part of maintenance just as changing engine oil and with something that works as hard as the Toy trans does it is something that should be done every 30K and I would recommend syntactic trans fluid because it stands up to heat a lot better.

[zero]

I would recommend syntactic trans fluid because it stands up to heat a lot better.

Not universally true. When buying ATF regardless if the label says "synthetic" or not - you have to read the MS datasheet to know the high-heat rating.

"Flash Point" is the high temp when oil can no longer lube.

One example of where conventional ATF beats synthetic and there are many .

Chevron-Texaco Dexron IV (conventional) - safe to 396 F (202 C)

Valvoline Full Synthetic +4 - safe to 392 F (200 C)

Another:

Shell Synthetic Spirax ATF (Mercon, Ford) - safe to 396 F (202 C)

Shell conventional ATF134 (cert for Mercedes) - safe to 396 F (202 C)

Mobil Delvac Syn has one of the highest Flash Point ratings for an ATF at 456 F (236 C)

Redline D4 (Dexron) is also pretty high at 437 F (225 C), meets Toyota specs for some new stuff

[Derek up North]

... seems like some service writers get paid only on commission?

'All' would probably be a safer bet than 'some'! But there's probably a base salary too.

[zero]

i think im going to start with having someone drop the pan, replace the screen

The trans filter is a bit more then a "screen" and a good thing to change. An automatic trans flows a lot of oil and when the filter is starting to get plugged it will show symptoms on cold mornings at first start. Squawking, buzzing, slow shifting, etc. Trans filters in transmissions made in the past 20-30 years tend to be 80-100 microns. That is fine enough to catch a human hair. If the filters were any finer clean cold oil would not flow well enough for the trans to work properly.

[shim 'n bucket]

The trans filter is a bit more then a "screen"....

Not in a Toyota A340E tranny, which is what the OP is referring to in his '93 Itasca. The filter is actually an "oil strainer" (Toyota's term) and is a screen, (similar to screen door mesh) It is easily removable for cleaning.

http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-buchanan/93fsm/autotrans/24onvehicl.pdf

See step 4.

You must be thinking of another brand of transmission.

[zero]

Not in a Toyota A340E tranny, which is what the OP is referring to in his '93 Itasca. The filter is actually an "oil strainer" (Toyota's term) and is a screen, (similar to screen door mesh) It is easily removable for cleaning.

http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-buchanan/93fsm/autotrans/24onvehicl.pdf

See step 4.

You must be thinking of another brand of transmission.

I'm not thinking of another trans. The Aisin A43D and A341E that Toyotas use have a stainless steel screen filter that is at the 75 micron level. I.e. it stops particles larger then .003". I stated previously the 80-100 was the average micronic level of filter used in modern transmissions. That 75 microns traps slightly smaller particles, not larger then what I stated. A 100 micron filter traps .004" particles. The Aisin 75 micron filter traps .003" particles.

[shim 'n bucket]

I'm not thinking of another trans. The Aisin A43D and A341E that Toyotas use have a stainless steel screen filter that is at the 75 micron level. I.e. it stops particles larger then .003". I stated previously the 80-100 was the average micronic level of filter used in modern transmissions. That 75 microns traps slightly smaller particles, not larger then what I stated. A 100 micron filter traps .004" particles. The Aisin 75 micron filter traps .003" particles.

I had no idea the stainless mesh was capable of filtering to 75 microns. Quite amazing.

[zulujim]

happy

guess it was just some kinda kickdown adjustment.

i told them to change the fluid and screen and make any adjustments unnecessary.

running like a champ!

thanks all