Bearing repack - rear axle?

[bboulan]

I called Les Schwab to schedule to have my bearings repacked..they said the rear bearings should be lubricated by the rear diff and only the front axle bearings should need repacked..is this correct?

[linda s]

If you have a Toy home with the full float axle they are not lubricated by Diff fluid. They need to be repacked just like the front. big job though. Axles need to be pulled to get to them

Linda S

[bboulan]

I have an 85 6-lug dual. I've been wondering if its the "full floating" how can I verify this?

[bboulan]

I have an 85 6-lug dual. I've been wondering if its the "full floating" how can I verify this?

I think I just answered my own question through a google search...I do have the protruding hub that has bolts around it...so therefore Full floating?

[Derek up North]

Certainly sounds like a FF.

Apparently Toyota is pretty unique in fitting a seal to their FF design to keep diff oil away from the bearings. Understandable that Les Schwab wouldn't know this, I guess!

If you read the Service Schedule A in the FSM*, it actually only says to repack the front bearings @ 30k miles. However they also say to repack @ 48 months, so I'd recommend that you at least repack the rears if you have any other reason to go 'in there'.

* The Owners Manual simple says 'Replace, change or lubricate 'wheel bearing grease'' @ 30k miles.

BTW, an '85 would have shipped with a 5-lug axle, so yours must have been retrofitted. Do your rear wheels have 3 or 6 'hand holes'?

[bboulan]

BTW, an '85 would have shipped with a 5-lug axle, so yours must have been retrofitted. Do your rear wheels have 3 or 6 'hand holes'?

Not sure, ill have to check when I get home.. Just trying to touch all bases for preventative maintanence for some long road trips this upcoming summer.

[Derek up North]

Not sure, ill have to check when I get home.. Just trying to touch all bases for preventative maintenance for some long road trips this upcoming summer.

I'm sure that would (should) include inspecting the rear brakes. Might as well inspect and repack the rear bearings!

[zero]

I called Les Schwab to schedule to have my bearings repacked..they said the rear bearings should be lubricated by the rear diff and only the front axle bearings should need repacked..is this correct?

As others have already stated - as originally designed they are sealed and need to be packed. That being said, I've come across two Toyota full-floaters now where those tiny little seals were omitted so the bearings did indeed get lubricated from the gear oil in the center-section. The Toyota design is almost identical to the US designed Dana and Rockwell full-floaters that self-lube. I can't think of any reason why those little internal seals need to be there. Maybe Toyota copied a USA design and tweaked it a bit to be different.

It's not a 10 minute task to pull off those rear hubs and drums. I'd be prepared to put in new brakes, wheel cylinders, main hub seals etc. unless you think it's been done recently. The parts prices are cheap if you pre-plan. You can get new brake shoes, new wheel cylinders, new hub seals, and a hold-down kit for a total of $40. Relined Bendix shoes (4 of them) cost $16 (BENDIX Part # RS523). Brand new wheel cylinders are $6.50 each, a shoe hold-down kit with new springs is $3.50 (DORMAN Part # HW24049), new hub seals are $1.20 each ( BECK/ARNLEY Part # 0522375),and the teeny little axle seals that prevent your bearings from self-lube are $1.65 each (BECK/ARNLEY Part # 0522680).

[Riverman77]

Hey there "Derek up North", I hope that you are still checking this topic line.

You had asked "bboulan" if his 1985 wheels had 3 hand holds or 6. I don't think that he ever got back to us with an answer or not.

My question is: What is the signifigance between the two different styles of wheels (3holds vs. 6holds)? I've seen both versions.

Riverman77

[Riverman77]

Hey, "Derek Up North" an update to my previous question (right above).

There are two types of wheels that I have seen on late 1980's Dolphins. Some have 3 hand holds (or, through holes), while some have 4 holds.

Do you or anyone else reading this know why Toyota made these two types of wheels?

Riverman77

[zero]

Hey, "Derek Up North" an update to my previous question (right above).

There are two types of wheels that I have seen on late 1980's Dolphins. Some have 3 hand holds (or, through holes), while some have 4 holds.

Do you or anyone else reading this know why Toyota made these two types of wheels?

Riverman77

Toyota probably didn't make any of them. They had them made and probably had to change suppliers as some point in time. The factory wheels on my 1987 Toyota dually box-truck have three holes and were made by the TOPY wheel company of Japan and are dated 1986.. Note also that Japan rarely made new designs. They searched the world for existing designs that worked and copied them. My Datsun 240Z was made from 8 different cars including Porsche and Chevy Corvette.

The 6 lug wheels on these FF Toyotas use an old Dodge/Studebaker wheel pattern from the 1940s-1950s.

http://www.topy.co.jp/english/dept/wheel/

http://www.topy.co.jp/english/dept/wheel/

[WME]

The wheels were 6 or 3 hand holes. From what I have been able to understand the 6 hole rims were part of the recall/retrofit program. They are also the ones that have the left handed thread studs on the drivers side.

[linda s]

If it's older than 87 and it has 3 hand holes it's a retro fit. All 87 and newer had 3 hand holes. The 6 hand holes are 86 only and they came from the factory that way. Yes they have left hand thread on the drivers side and if you ever need to have tires put on you NEED to tell them. Otherwise you could easily have broken studs. I have never seen 4 hand holes on any toyota motorhome.

Linda S

Oh and one other thing. I have a full float Nissan Rv with the same design as the Toyota. Rear wheel bearings are not lubricated by differential fluid because of seals. The seals on mine were bad and the diff fluid drained almost all the way out and ended up all over the brakes. Might not be a good idea to try to make changes to that system.

[Derek up North]

Here's what I think I know:

- 6-lug, 6 hole rims (and matching axles, obviously) were used for the 1986 'transition year only (5-lug front, 6-lug rear);

- For some reason, the driver's (LH) side was Left Hand Thread, the RH side Right Hand Thread;

- I've read it on the 'net (not my favorite source) that the tightening torque for the lug nuts is 126ft-lbf;

- The 6-lug, 6 hole rims need different nuts vs 3 hole rims. I'm guessing they're a different seat type;

- If the nuts are different, I'll assume the lugs are different (beyond the LH thread of course).

6-lug, 3 hole rims were used from 1987 on. I can't think of a single instance where I've noticed 3 hole rims with a 5-lug front end. I'll refer to this as the true 1-Ton chassis.

The tightening torque is listed as 170ft-lbf by Toyota in the '93 FSM and '92 Owner's Manuals;

All lug nuts are 'conventional' RH thread. Studs are installed from the 'outside', nutted on the inside. So broken studs cannot be 'pounded out' like many others. There's a chamfer at the base of the stud, so the wheels are 'lug centric'. (Perhaps the earlier rims are 'hub centric??) I'm not sure if 3 hole rims can be safely used on an '86 axle without replacing the lugs and nuts. Yes, the BCD's the same, but the nut seats might be different which could damage the rims.

Any axle swaps made under the recall would have logically been with the 3 hole rim design which was current production at the time of the recall ('91).

Some of the above is speculation since I've never been 'up close and personal' with a 1986 axle.

Any reference to years are from the VIN of the C&C and NOT the year the coach was built or sold.

Again, that's what I think I know but I'm always willing to learn!

Edit: I did read 1 online discussion that implied the the 6 hole rims had more offset, providing more clearance between rear tires. I've no idea if this is true and can't verify since I don't have a 6 hole rim to measure. Anyone got one handy?

[zero]

Edit: I did read 1 online discussion that implied the the 6 hole rims had more offset, providing more clearance between rear tires. I've no idea if this is true and can't verify since I don't have a 6 hole rim to measure. Anyone got one handy?

The 6 lug wheels for the 1 tons have a huge off-set. They have to for duals. Since they face each other the rims have to touch each other before the tire do.

6 lug wheel - 1 ton - distance from face of tire sidewall to rim mounting flange is 7 1/2"

5 lug wheel - 1/2 ton - distance from face of tire sidewall to rim mounting flange is 5 3/4"

In regard to what Linda stated (seals and oil on the brakes). It does not work that way. You can leave those small seals out and still no oil can get to the brakes. The second inboard larger seal stops the oil. The way Toyota has done with with dual seals in no better and no worse than a one-seal setup like millions of HD trucks have throughout the world. Two seals gives extra leak insurance insurance, whereas one seal lets the bearings get gear lube from the oil reservoir.

As to the left-hand threads? Once upon a time in Europe it was believed that LH threads were better on the left side of heavy trucks. GM, Dodge, et. al. adopted it for awhile for USA vehicles. My 69 Dodge Power Wagon still has them.. NOTE also that General Motors manufactured wheel studs for Toyota. By the 1970s it was generally decided amont auto engineers that LH threads did more harm then good. Finer threads and proper wheel torque showed that right hand threads were fine for both sides.

Considering that Toyota used a 1940s Dodge/GM/Ford/Studebaker 7.25" x 6 wheel pattern, I suspect they also copied the US or British idea of the LH studs for awhile.

If I had a Toyota with LH studs - I'd probably change them out to good-old M14 X 1.5 RH studs and elimiate the risk of some jerk not seeing the "L" and breaking them off. It's happened twice to my Dodge truck. I am a prof mechanic - but -I have to bring my truck to get a MV inspection once a year and that requires somebody else pulling a wheel off for inspection. Twice they've broken off my LH studs with an air gun - going the wrong way.

[zero]

I have a full float Nissan Rv with the same design as the Toyota. Rear wheel bearings are not lubricated by differential fluid because of seals. The seals on mine were bad and the diff fluid drained almost all the way out and ended up all over the brakes.

It does NOT work that way. If those small outboard axle seals were bad . . or left out entirely . . no oil could get on your brakes. The 2nd larger inboard seal stops the oil. If you had that problem you had both seals leaking. There are millions of US designed axles e.g. Dana 60s, 70s, etc. that only have the single inboard seal and they are not prone to leakage into the brakes. The Toyota FF axles are almost carbon copies, just smaller with the extra little axle seals added. The way Toyota and maybe Nissan/Datsun does it is just a matter of preference and not necessity. I'm no expert on Nissan HD axles though. I think the only ones that exist anymore are the rear axles from the old Patrol trucks that are now used in some cab-over trucks and RVs. The old H260 Patrol axle. Just like Toyota used the Cruiser FF idea to make their 1 ton duallies (I assume).

[Derek up North]

The 6 lug wheels for the 1 tons have a huge off-set. They have to for duals. Since they face each other the rims have to touch each other before the tire do.

The message I saw stated there was more clearance between dual rear tires. If this was so, all else being equal (which it seldom is!), then the offset would have to be even more extreme so that when 'face-to-face' the rims would be further apart.

[zero]

The message I saw stated there was more clearance between dual rear tires. If this was so, all else being equal (which it seldom is!), then the offset would have to be even more extreme so that when 'face-to-face' the rims would be further apart.

Yes, the tire sidewalls are not supposed to touch each other so there is clearance designed into it. It's also one reason why (I guess) that one flat tire on a dually setup can catch fire if you drive it too long. Happened to me driving a big rig.

The offset is exactly as I gave it. I've got a stack of a dozen Toyota dually wheels laying here. Easy to measure.

[zero]

The message I saw stated there was more clearance between dual rear tires. If this was so, all else being equal (which it seldom is!), then the offset would have to be even more extreme so that when 'face-to-face' the rims would be further apart.

I just took some photos. Tires on the duallies have 1 1/2" of air space between the sidewalls. Also a photo of a 5 lug 1/2 ton wheel next to a 6 lug 1 ton

[Derek up North]

Certainly lots of space. Can you confirm that the tires are 185R14 LR D?

[zero]

Certainly lots of space. Can you confirm that the tires are 185R14 LR D?

Tires in the photo on the dually rims are passenger car tires - 185-75-R14". Same basic size as commercial 185R-14C 8-ply tires.

185-75-R14" car tires are 25.1"diameter X 7.2" section thickness X 5.5" wide tread

185R-14C" 8-ply truck tires are 25.7"diameter X 7.4" section thickness X 5.3" wide tread

[Riverman77]

I wish to thank ya'll for all of the input to my question. Good photos jdemaris. I can clearly see the difference of the early "6-holed" style vs. the "3-holed" that i have on my 1988 Dolphin. It seemed as if my question opened the door to have some healthy back and forth chatter about Linda's leaky seals, also.

Linda, the "3-holed wheel" does seem to be the norm, since the Toyota recall/upgrade took place. I will someday (or someyear) run across that one fella who has "4-holed" factory wheels on his late 80's Dolphin. When I do, I'll snap a photo, post and bring it to your attention. So, unless anyone else posts in on this thread about "3-holed wheels" vs. "4-holed wheels" on late model Dolphins, it may be safe to assume that the "4-holed wheels" are a rarity, for some unknown reason.

Thanks again all you folks!

Riverman77

[Tundrawolf]

As others have already stated - as originally designed they are sealed and need to be packed. That being said, I've come across two Toyota full-floaters now where those tiny little seals were omitted so the bearings did indeed get lubricated from the gear oil in the center-section. The Toyota design is almost identical to the US designed Dana and Rockwell full-floaters that self-lube. I can't think of any reason why those little internal seals need to be there. Maybe Toyota copied a USA design and tweaked it a bit to be different.

It's not a 10 minute task to pull off those rear hubs and drums. I'd be prepared to put in new brakes, wheel cylinders, main hub seals etc. unless you think it's been done recently. The parts prices are cheap if you pre-plan. You can get new brake shoes, new wheel cylinders, new hub seals, and a hold-down kit for a total of $40. Relined Bendix shoes (4 of them) cost $16 (BENDIX Part # RS523). Brand new wheel cylinders are $6.50 each, a shoe hold-down kit with new springs is $3.50 (DORMAN Part # HW24049), new hub seals are $1.20 each ( BECK/ARNLEY Part # 0522375),and the teeny little axle seals that prevent your bearings from self-lube are $1.65 each (BECK/ARNLEY Part # 0522680).

Do you have a part number for the wheel cylinders? How would I find something like that?

[Derek up North]

You could try looking here with your VIN if it originally had the FF axle.

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/

[Tundrawolf]

You could try looking here with your VIN if it originally had the FF axle.

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/

No, unfortunately it's an 82, and I had to install the axle myself. I know nothing of the donor vehicle's specifications...

[Derek up North]

In that case, a trick that might work would be to 'borrow' a VIN from a later Toyota MH for sale on EBay and use that.

[zero]

Do you have a part number for the wheel cylinders? How would I find something like that?

These are the new wheel cylinders I just installed. They are correct for the FF dually. $5.60 each brand new at Rock Auto. Many places are selling off these sort of parts because the older Toyotas are considered "obsolete" in the world of parts selling. Don't let the "American Remanufacturers" name throw you. These are new 7/.8" bore cylinders, not rebuilt.

AMERICAN REMANUFACTURERS INC. Part # 78422707

Rear Wheel Cylinder 1 TON and w/FT DISC/RR DRUM Except 4 WHEEL/ALL WHEEL DRIVE,CAB & CHASSIS (INCL CHINOOK CAMPER); DRW; 7/8"; RN63 Model

Rear Wheel Cylinder 1 TON and w/FT DISC/RR DRUM Except 4 WHEEL/ALL WHEEL DRIVE,CAB & CHASSIS (INCL CHINOOK CAMPER); SRW; 7/8"; RN63 Model

Rear Wheel Cylinder 1 TON and w/FT DISC/RR DRUM Except 4 WHEEL/ALL WHEEL DRIVE,EXC CAB & CHASSIS, CHINOOK & T100; 7/8"; RN63 Model

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1277502,parttype,1952

Same as Wagner WC110923, EIS 155038, etc.

$18 each from NAPA under # UP37654

[zero]

No, unfortunately it's an 82, and I had to install the axle myself. I know nothing of the donor vehicle's specifications...

The full floater duallies with 10" brakes use the same wheel cylinders regardless of year of with four cylinder or V6 engine.

[Maineah]

I'm not suggesting you do this but when I inspected the rear brakes on mine I removed the small axle seal to allow gear oil into the bearings that had to my line of thinking one of dumb ideals on record for a heavy duty axle.Gear oil on a tapered bearing is a far better lube then bearing grease. To my knowledge Toyota was the only Co. that did that. The MH has been 15K with out the seal and is still going fine with no leaks.

[zero]

I'm not suggesting you do this but when I inspected the rear brakes on mine I removed the small axle seal to allow gear oil into the bearings that had to my line of thinking one of dumb ideals on record for a heavy duty axle.Gear oil on a tapered bearing is a far better lube then bearing grease. To my knowledge Toyota was the only Co. that did that. The MH has been 15K with out the seal and is still going fine with no leaks.

I came across a Toyota FF that had those small axle seals omitted. It was fine. No leaks. It's a toss-up I guess. The setup is almost an exact clone of a Dana full floater except Dana never used those extra seals.

The Toyota FF when done OEM has two seals -in series - preventing gear oil from getting to the brakes. An American Dana has only one.

In regard to quality of lube? Wheel bearing grease is 30 W motor oil held in suspension by some sort of medium (clay, lithium soap, etc).

90W gear oil is near the same viscosity as 30W-40W motor oil. I suspect there is little difference in lube quality with either when all is correct. But the Dana style "self-lubes" and the Toyota style does not and requires more maintenance.

There was some past mention on this forum that omitting those little axle seals would result in oil into the brakes. That is not true. The 2nd larger hub seal prevents that just as it does in a Dana.

[Derek up North]

Sounds reasonable/logical to me.

A recent (Unfortunate? Inaccurate?) comment on the Yahoo Group:-

"The two outer wheel bearings are lubed separate from the diff oil and require packing in heavy bearing grease by hand just like the front wheel bearings do.

This is typical of heavy duty axles. Only auto and light duty axles use diff oil to lubricate the bearings."

These words will now become 'Gospel' there.

[zero]

Yes. When it comes to newer cars with front wheel drive, I cannot think of any off-hand with "oil lubed" rear bearings. Older rear-wheel-drive, yeah.

With trucks? Even the light 1/2 ton RWD trucks, vans and SUVs often had gear-lubed roller bearings that ride directly on the axle surface (GM 10, 12, and 14 bolt). And others have sealed ball bearings like the older F-150s. Many of the newer Ford semi-floaters are now GM style with oil-lubed roller bearings.

When I pulled the little 1/2 ton rear from my 1978 Toyota, both "sealed" ball-bearings were saturated with gear lube but that wasn't the intention of Toyota. Nor were the oil-soaked brake shoes.

[Tundrawolf]

I came across a Toyota FF that had those small axle seals omitted. It was fine. No leaks. It's a toss-up I guess. The setup is almost an exact clone of a Dana full floater except Dana never used those extra seals.

The Toyota FF when done OEM has two seals -in series - preventing gear oil from getting to the brakes. An American Dana has only one.

In regard to quality of lube? Wheel bearing grease is 30 W motor oil held in suspension by some sort of medium (clay, lithium soap, etc).

90W gear oil is near the same viscosity as 30W-40W motor oil. I suspect there is little difference in lube quality with either when all is correct. But the Dana style "self-lubes" and the Toyota style does not and requires more maintenance.

There was some past mention on this forum that omitting those little axle seals would result in oil into the brakes. That is not true. The 2nd larger hub seal prevents that just as it does in a Dana.

Almost makes me want to clean the grease out and add extra gear oil in the back.

I went to Rock auto and put all those things in my cart, and found out shipping is almost exactly the same as those parts, $50/$50 just about. I am trying to put those numbers into parts geek, but they're not finding them, except for the seals.

So... If one were to remove the seals that prevent the axle oil from entering the bearing area, would said oil leak out? I mean... would it be wise to add a little more oil to ensure the level is proper to reach the bearings?

One more thing, I have the PDF for the one ton axle, but it only shows one seal. Where's the other, smaller seal?

[zero]

Almost makes me want to clean the grease out and add extra gear oil in the back.

I went to Rock auto and put all those things in my cart, and found out shipping is almost exactly the same as those parts, $50/$50 just about. I am trying to put those numbers into parts geek, but they're not finding them, except for the seals.

So... If one were to remove the seals that prevent the axle oil from entering the bearing area, would said oil leak out? I mean... would it be wise to add a little more oil to ensure the level is proper to reach the bearings?

One more thing, I have the PDF for the one ton axle, but it only shows one seal. Where's the other, smaller seal?

Small seal goes into the end of the threaded stub sticking out as in the photos. The small seal is stationary, whereas the bigger seal that presses into the hub rotates. Oil cannot get into the brakes unless both seals are missing.

[Derek up North]

If I was planning to omit the seal, I'd still pack the bearings with grease. If the grease stays in the bearings, no harm, no foul. If diff oil gets to the bearings, as you're hope, still no harm, no foul but the bearings will be lubed until the oil gets there. There's no problem mixing the oil and grease that I know of.