canadasunrader Posted December 27, 2019 Share Posted December 27, 2019 Hello again. I have read through the many related threads here and elsewhere with regards to rot. We just got our new to us 1986 21' Sunrader home and I am digging in. I knew I would have to pretty much empty him out and build back up as he suffered neglect over the past few years and then had a large tree branch fall across the house. The guy I bought him from did a quick and not so loving fiberglass job using 2x2s across the inside to prop it up. And he covered the cracks outside. My goal is to empty the inside and address the rot. It's worse than I thought. I had not anticipated most of the floor being wet and rotten. And in some areas it's very deep. After reading through a few threads I see that I am not alone in this and many have suffered similarly. I guess what I am hoping is that someone can give me a clear idea on how to deal with the floor. Do I cut it all out and start frest with a plywood insulation sandwich? Or do I go down only so far and build back on top of what is here? Thanks. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted December 27, 2019 Share Posted December 27, 2019 The fiberglass shell and the floor are essentially one piece. You cut out the entire floor and the shell drops to the ground. Just cut out the rot and rebuild the floor in place. Weakened areas can be reinforced with an epoxy pour so you have something solid to screw new plywood layers to. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted December 27, 2019 Author Share Posted December 27, 2019 Thank you, Linda. I will do some more research on just how to do that. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted December 27, 2019 Share Posted December 27, 2019 These are photos of a 1983 Sunrader with the floor completely removed. I have no further details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted December 28, 2019 Author Share Posted December 28, 2019 Ok, spent the afternoon digging into the back left corner. Photos attached here. As you can see it is pretty soft. I looked underneath and the aluminium sheet is in good shape. Although is sagging slightly on that back side. It does not seem to be 'attached' to anything on the side. I am contemplating using epoxy glue and putting an aluminium piece on the fibeerglass under there as a brace. Good idea or no? As well, Linda is suggesting drying it out and taking some rot out but leaving what I can. Ok with me. And much preferred compared to completely taking the floor out. However, in this corner the plywood top has completely disintegrated in places exposing the styrofoam core. I see that there is an 1/8 sheet of plywood underneath this foam that sits on top of the aluminium. The foam is what it is but what if that 1/8 sheet of plywood is soaking wet and rotten underneath up against the aluminium? What do I know? But this sounds like it would lead to problems.... no? And what does one secure plywood to on that outside edge? There is nothing there but fiberglass. Do I build a shallow frame all along the outside edges expoxy glued on in order to have a frame to work with? Thanks again. I do appreciate all your experience and expertise. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 For attaching a plywood floor, I suggest you follow boating practices. https://www.google.com/search?q=tabbing+plywood+bulkhead+to+fiberglass&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNQ4Uj62P84BPvLBl-tfwagEx2GJqw:1577563295302&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjGxs6ekdnmAhWmTN8KHZuvBtIQ_AUoA3oECAwQBQ&biw=1366&bih=635 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 Thanks Derek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 I spoke with the Rot Doctor this morning and was advised that the styrofoam could disintegrate with certain epoxy pours. I have cleaned the area thoroughly throughout the day and continue to dry it out. Now to prop up the sag and build back up..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 Then use a Styrofoam safe one. https://theepoxyexperts.com/shop/adhesives/structural-strength/max-gpe/clear-max-gpe/max-gpe-clear-24-oz-epoxy-resin-low-cost-styrofoam-safe-glue-coating-casting-fiberglassing/ I didn't like the Rot Doctor stuff. Didn't seem to change the wood like I wanted. Bought some kind of epoxy ( I have no idea what kind) drilled a bunch of little holes so it would sink in and poured it on. Was nice and solid screwing new plywood on top of it. I did make mistakes. I should have glued and screwed the top layer on and I should have used thicker better quality plywood. In your case you have more damage probably but after your styro safe pour you can use whatever you require for the strength needed Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 (edited) Thanks L. Appreciate it. Dug out what was remaining of the top layer of plywood in the most affected area, and then took off the styrofoam to reveal the bottom layer of plywood. It's thin and fragile but after drying seems good. Will build back up with a new layer of insulation, then an epoxy pour finished with a new top layer of plywood. One question: There is quite a bow in the floor from the centre down to each side. Is this how they were built? Rick Edited December 29, 2019 by canadasunrader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 Well that floor was the main support for the shell. Now weight of shell is bending the floor. The hope in rebuilding is to make the floor strong enough to pull the side back up some. Maybe you could jack the shell up a bit at the corner, stronger there, but be careful you don't overdo it and crack shell. Maybe you could get the floor structure straighter then. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 Thanks Linda. How is the shell attached to the wood floor? Is the shell also somehow tied into the steel frame below? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 Floor is fiberglassed to shell before installation under high compression. Don't know where the steel comes in on the construction. I thought it was just supporting the floor but in the pics Derek posted it does appear to attach to the shell. I do know of one person who lifted the whole shell to get steel to the edges of the shell because he said his didn't have any. It's pouring here and I am not going to be crawling under my Sunrader anytime soon. Maybe someone else here has some pics. Surprised no one else has commented yet Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 Thanks Linda. The area is drying out nicely. I don't have the means or desire to jack anything up. And I've had a good look all around the shell and it may not be perfect after nearly 40 years, but it's the least of my worries. My plan is to do an epoxy pour over the corner area. Then replace the styrofoam and a top piece of plywood. I will glue and screw a piece of aluminium onto the shell between the wheel well and the back corner that will prop up the sagging floor back up to its original level. Looks pretty straight forward. Then I will glue and screw a new plywood top over the entire floor to solidify. Next will begin building the ceiling. I have mostly gutted the whole inside. Every window needs addressing. And two new vents are a must up top. Was not planning this to be a complete rebuild, but that's life. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 Look at the underside of your Rader. Most of then have no full width support. The floor rest on the frame and the edges support the full weight of the shell. As things age the flor weakens and the shell settle and causes a low spot all around the edge.Weld some triangle braces from the frame and the shell edge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted December 31, 2019 Author Share Posted December 31, 2019 Yes, you are correct. There is no support out there on the sides. Well, at least not on this 21 foot 86 Sunrader. It looks like that would be a good fix, or preventitive measure - welding some braces out to the sides to support the ever sagging shell. However, for now I just went with a driveway fix. Cleaned up the entire area. Dried it all out. Removed quite a bit of the rotten wood and in some places right down to the first layer of plywood. Replaced the styrofoam in that area and topped it with fresh 3/8 ply. Underneath, cleaned the area and propped up the sag to its original level. Bolted and glued an aluminium angle iron onto the shell from the tires back running tight against the aluminium floor. Will now screw and glue plywood down to make a good floor top... onward and upward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) As well, if I may ask. In anticipation of rebuilding this ceiling, I have read many threads here. I am not an engineer, or a pro fabricator. Generally I see two schools of thought on the ceiling rebuild. 2x?s cut to match the curve, or 1x2s bent that hold the curve on their own. Any thoughts on which way to go? I plan to get them in next week and then add stiff insulation inbetween. And eventually finish with plywood. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Rick Edited January 2, 2020 by canadasunrader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaySam Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 On 12/30/2019 at 6:45 PM, canadasunrader said: Underneath, cleaned the area and propped up the sag to its original level. Bolted and glued an aluminium angle iron onto the shell from the tires back running tight against the aluminium floor. Do you have any pictures of this you can share Rick? I just purchased a Sunrader and am tearing into it only to find some rotten floor as well and am looking for potential fixes. How did you prop up the sagging floor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 I don't have any photos from underneath but as said the way I adddressed this was to cut out most of the rot. I got right down to the first piece of ply. Then dried it out. There is no support at the wall for the floor on either side. The easiest solution is to weld some braces to the frame underneath extending out to the shell propping up the floor. I did not afford this and went for a cheaper but hopefully effective method. I glued and screwed a piece of angle iron aluminium to the shell under the floor propping it up to its original level. Now I need to fill the voids and plan to glue and screw a new plywood floor over the entire floor. Here are the before and after pics. Right now I am rebuilding the ceiling. I am a complete newbie and am learning as I go. Its all very interesting and frustrating at the same time. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaySam Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Nice work! I've got quite a bit more floor damage than you, wish mine was only that corner! So far I've removed all the rot and am planning to weld braces underneath to the frame for support and rebuild back up. I'll attach some pics when I get done, hopefully tomorrow. How are you tackling the ceiling? Any pics you could share? This looks to be my next step as well and am a bit up in the air on which approach I want to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) Here's a pic of the ceiling so far. I have read everything I can find here and elsewhere. Seems to be no consensus on how best to do it. Would love to hear from some of the folks here with a lot of experience with all of this. I guess folks are busy with holidays. After a lot of work stripping out what was left of the ceiling and cleaning with acetone I glued in seven 1x3s, cutting them about 1/4" longer than the space making them bow to almost the original shape of the shell. I have no idea if this will work or not but so far so good. This Sunrader took a bad blow to the roof from a tree branch and the shell will never be perfect. I used the best glues I can afford - Sikaflex and PL Premium in various ways. And I plan to glue long 1x4s to the sides for added support where these pieces attach to the shell. I placed the 1x3s on 16" more or less keeping the two vents in mind and plan to add 1x2 cross pieces to connect it all. Then insulation in between. You can go crazy and buy epoxy glues in tubes that cost $40 ea, but I did not go that way. As you can see I have a lot more work ahead with various holes in need of fiberglass and all the windows need to be taken out, cleaned, painted etc and put back in. I haven't even looked at the cab over yet. The windows there look like they leak a bit and of course will have to be taken out and put back in but I am interested to see what kind of rot there is up there.... Rick Edited January 4, 2020 by canadasunrader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Fiberglassing those beams in will lock your curve in place and strengthen the whole roof. It will also give you support for fiberglass repair on the top of the roof. looks like a really good job you have done. Time to drop the novice stuff. You look pretty darn accomplished to me Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 Linda you are too kind. After using enough Sikaflex to choke a small rhino do I really need to go back and fiberglass the beams? Maybe I can just fiberglass the ends against the shell? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 I don't have any experience with Sikaflex but I looked it up and it says it stays flexible. The question is how flexible. Later years Sunraders had an added steel beam on the inside which kind of makes it seem like the manufacturer didn't want it flexing. From the support posts in your pic it looks like your first crossbeam is almost the same place as that one steel beam. Maybe you could just fiberglass that one in for some extra stiffness and then do just the ends of the others. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) Thanks Linda. The boat builders I spoke with said that Sikaflex is one of the best glues available outside of epoxy. Their big worry wasn't that it isn't strong enough or that it can't handle the movement, rather they were concerned that you can't get this stuff off of anything once it's on. When you say "first crossbeam" do you mean the one at the very back? Or the beam closest in the picture [that would be almost the middle of the house]. I think that's a good plan to get one in very solid and then do all the other ends. I will also fiberglass the long pieces I plan to run the length of the wall underneath all of the beams. This will allow me to better tie it all together. Thanks again for your great advice. Rick Edited January 4, 2020 by canadasunrader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 21 minutes ago, canadasunrader said: Thanks Linda. The boat builders I spoke with said that Sikaflex is one of the best glues available outside of epoxy. Their big worry wasn't that it isn't strong enough or that it can't handle the movement, rather they were concerned that you can't get this stuff off of anything once it's on. From what I've read, the award for 'won't come off' usually goes to 3M 5200. If you think you might want to remove something in the future, 3M 4200. https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Marine-Adhesive-Sealant-5200/?N=5002385+3293241623&rt=rud https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Marine-Adhesive-Sealant-Fast-Cure-4200FC/?N=5002385+3291170224&rt=rud Sika makes more than one 'Sikaflex'. https://industry.sika.com/en/home.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 Derek. Yes, but for me it all comes down to what I can afford. The 5200, like some of the excellent epoxy glues, is outside of my range. Sikaflex is about $12 Canadian and by all accounts is excellent. I also used some PL PRemium, both the 3X and the 8X versions, and I like them because they are strong, flexible, and around $8 CDN. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 I meant the beam closest to the door. It appears that 21 footers though had 2 beams. see here, they are covered with carpet. This is a rear side door model but you are looking to the front overhead, then the top right corner of the pic would be the one towards the back Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaySam Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) That's looking really good Rick! Does anyone have a picture or know what the original profile of the roof is supposed to be? It'd be nice to have an idea before I start jacking up the roof, I don't wanna push anything too hard. Rick can you maybe add a photo of your new roof line? Also did you use a jack to prop the roof up originally or did you just wedge the beams into place to achieve the lift? Jay Edited January 4, 2020 by JaySam additional quesiton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 Jay. It is pissing rain here so everything is under tarps. Once you get the old ceiling off you will see the curve of the roof line at the very back. I began there and just worked my way forward. There is no need to jack anything. Just place the beam and prop it up with wood. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaySam Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Oh gotcha that makes sense and seems easy enough, thanks for the help Rick! I hadn't thought of pulling the curve from the very back where its still solid. Here's the subframe I put in under the floor today, it was impossible to jack the floor up to it's original level though! I think the fiberglass had just take on a new form from years and years of sagging. But I got it as close as I could and called it good, raised the floor over one and half inches in some spots! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 Now that's the way to do it. I'm sure someone could make a living welding wings on sunraders..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaySam Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 No doubt! Now to finish rebuilding the floor so I can start working on fixing the ceiling lol. Much like you Rick I wasn't planning on a full rebuild, but I must've been good this year and got a little bonus for christmas! I'd love to see updates on the ceiling as you go, are you still planning to glass in a beam or two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 Jay. Began my first attempt at fiberglass yesterday. It's hovering around 50 degrees here +- and the resin is not curing. Not the easiest material to work with. And adding fiberglass to the beams now that theyre in is a challenge. Having another run at it today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadasunrader Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 Upward and onward. Last few days I have been shoring up the ceiling. Overall I'm happy with it, but if I could do again I would build or have built custom curved beams. Perhaps in my next Sunrader life? I am about 6'1" and I was hoping for a curved ceiling with some head room down the middle. And this one ended up a little flatter than I had hoped. Today I pulled out the aluminium gas cabinet. And plan to fill the hole in the floor and eventually fiberglass the outside. A little bit of wood rood here but not too much fortunately. There are two steel 1x2 wings coming out from the frame that help stabilize the floor there. I will screw into those to find some strength for the new bit of flooring. Hoping to move on soon to finish the floor and get onto filling some fiberglass holes on the exterior. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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