AbleThought Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Hey guys im removing the coach battery and isolator from the hood and just running my starting battery. whats the best way to do this? id imagine take the alternator lead off the center plug of the isolator and put it on the hot terminal of the starting battery but thought id check. If so should i fuse the wire? I have an 83 Sunrader thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 No more house battery? Here's part of the '83 Toyota Truck/Hilux FSM wiring diagram showing the stock 'Charging System'. Wiring_Diagram_1.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 26 minutes ago, Derek up North said: No more house battery? Here's part of the '83 Toyota Truck/Hilux FSM wiring diagram showing the stock 'Charging System'. Wiring_Diagram_1.pdf thanks! I will but it will be in the coach running off of solar panels for now then lithium set up with solenoid down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 I'm no solar wizz, but don't you need a battery to accumulate some of the solar juice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 36 minutes ago, Derek up North said: I'm no solar wizz, but don't you need a battery to accumulate some of the solar juice? yes yes i have a gel cell in the coach at the moment that cannot be hooked up to alternator as it cant handle the amperage from the alternator. eventually this will be replaced with a lithium setup. im stuck between a rock and a hard place to be honest. i am remodeling the camper and plan to install the lithium pack in the coming months (quite pricey saving my pennies almost there) i had a gel cell running off solar in the coach plus and seperatly had the coach battery in the engine bay running the lights, pump and such. with the remodel i plan to ditch the coach battery in the engine bay and old load panel for new panel and was going to run off just my gel cell until i can pull the trigger on the lithium. annoying part is i cant run the gel off the alternator but i can run the lithium off the alternator so im trying to figure out a temporary solution for now with gel then convert to the lithium. does that make cents? i suppose the easiest solution would be to just keep the coach battery hooked to the solenoid until lithium but not sure if thats ok. can i just keep the coach in and charging without running the power off the isolator to the coach.. in other words have nothing connected to the coach isolator post? sorry for the long winded reply lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 If I understand correctly, that would work. You'd just hace a constantly charge, unused battery under the hood. Or remove the spare battery and disable the isolator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 30 minutes ago, Derek up North said: If I understand correctly, that would work. You'd just hace a constantly charge, unused battery under the hood. Or remove the spare battery and disable the isolator. yeah basically if thats safe to get me by a month thats probably the easiest .. as long as its safe to keep the battery charging (im going to ditch the battery with the new setup) its safe to have the battery under constant charge and not being used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 I'm no electrical wizzard, but it would be like using your motorhome as a daily driver without ever using any of the 'home stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 My Sunrader has the isolator in the engine compartment and the battery back near the power converter. I see no reason to take advantage of charging your coach battery both ways. Ya know the sun doesn't always shine. If I should get stuck without enough battery power at night I have the quietest smoothest running generator available. Completely legal at all state parks no matter what the time. My engine Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 How big is your GEL cell ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Why would you do that to a perfectly good system? You do realize Lithium batteries are very finicky and improperly charged and regulated have a nasty tendency to catch fire? There is no reason you can't charge a gel cell with the alternator provided it's not some dinky thing. There is a big difference between voltage and current. I agree with Linda it's not real efficient to use a 130 HP engine to charge a battery but by gum it will do a good job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 1 hour ago, linda s said: My Sunrader has the isolator in the engine compartment and the battery back near the power converter. I see no reason to take advantage of charging your coach battery both ways. Ya know the sun doesn't always shine. If I should get stuck without enough battery power at night I have the quietest smoothest running generator available. Completely legal at all state parks no matter what the time. My engine Linda S hey Linda i will take advantage of both with my lithium setup but the gel cell i currently have cannot be charged with the alternator according to the manufacturer. renogy. so im stuck in the middle of ditching the opd setup and getting the new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 (edited) 47 minutes ago, WME said: How big is your GEL cell ? 90 AH i believe. heavy bugger. renogy battery. Correction 100AH https://www.renogy.com/renogy-deep-cycle-pure-gel-battery-12-volt-100ah/ Edited April 27, 2018 by AbleThought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 36 minutes ago, Maineah said: Why would you do that to a perfectly good system? You do realize Lithium batteries are very finicky and improperly charged and regulated have a nasty tendency to catch fire? There is no reason you can't charge a gel cell with the alternator provided it's not some dinky thing. There is a big difference between voltage and current. I agree with Linda it's not real efficient to use a 130 HP engine to charge a battery but by gum it will do a good job! According to the manufacturer it cannot be charged with the alternator https://www.renogy.com/renogy-deep-cycle-pure-gel-battery-12-volt-100ah/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Still not being a wizard, I understand lithium ion batteries are kind of picky about how they're charge too. I assume you've checked that a Toyota alternator is going to keep it happy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 I must be missing something. I can't find out where they say it can't be charged from the alternator. I did find some RV sites where they were using them the same as a regular deep cycle. Said that when engine is running the charge controller from solar automatically goes into float cycle. If you think the alternator is going to surge and damage the battery put a lower amp self setting fuse next to the isolator instead of the 30 amp it probably has. Distance to the rear where you place the battery will reduce the amps too Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 7 hours ago, Derek up North said: Still not being a wizard, I understand lithium ion batteries are kind of picky about how they're charge too. I assume you've checked that a Toyota alternator is going to keep it happy? I have yes and was told it would by lifeblue manufaturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 5 hours ago, linda s said: I must be missing something. I can't find out where they say it can't be charged from the alternator. I did find some RV sites where they were using them the same as a regular deep cycle. Said that when engine is running the charge controller from solar automatically goes into float cycle. If you think the alternator is going to surge and damage the battery put a lower amp self setting fuse next to the isolator instead of the 30 amp it probably has. Distance to the rear where you place the battery will reduce the amps too Linda S I called Renogy and talked to one of their technicians and thats what they told me. i will however try again as it boggles my mind too. maybe i chatted with a rookie or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 (edited) Lithium ion batteries should only be charged by their chargers - which can be powered by a plethora of sources. This is because of the BMS or battery managment system - and that is because they have multiple cells inside that each must be independently charged of the other and have differing rates of charge sometimes. applying charge without a BMS (which BMS is often built into battery pack or in their charger.charge controller but not always) is seriously dangerous if there is no BMS. fire - a fire that's hard to put out- can result. unless you have 1 cell of a lithium it will need its BMS board and they are always a battery "pack" containing multiple cells. cracking open a standard laptop battery often will reveal 18650 lithium cells that can be separately charged and even then the wall plug charges for those have a BMS just for the one cell. The BMS will be a circuit board. the old lead acid batteries of old dont need this and just have current apply to them from the alternator. I have seen lithium ion motorcycle and marine batteries that have their own BMS and are setup to recieve charge straight off the the alternator. They are NOT cheap. Edited April 27, 2018 by Totem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Totem said: They are NOT cheap. For a small taste of this, go and check the price of a new Lithium ion batteries for your drill. And take apart an old one. No longer just a few cells soldered together. Now you'll find a circuit board inside! Life used to be so simple, but OTOH, it sure doesn't take long to get used to the convenience of cordless tools! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 3 hours ago, Derek up North said: For a small taste of this, go and check the price of a new Lithium ion batteries for your drill. And take apart an old one. No longer just a few cells soldered together. Now you'll find a circuit board inside! Life used to be so simple, but OTOH, it sure doesn't take long to get used to the convenience of cordless tools! yes but the new drill battery will have a meter and auto shut off to protect the cells; unlike the old nickel metal hydride that would run dead and be dead from ghost. then you would have to freeze them in freezer and then shock them with high c rate to get em back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 A gel is very sensitive to VOLTAGE. 14.4-147v is correct for fast charge, 13.5-13.8v for float/trickle. A battery will only except the amps it needs at the right charge voltage. The only way to overamp a gel battery is to overvoltage the charge. So check your charge voltage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 do you mean a gel cell lead acid? WME? For SLA there are 3 types, maintenance free or maintenance flooded acid. gel acid or advance glass mat. Its best to use lead battery chargers that support those and what size of battery they are, of course, also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 5 hours ago, Totem said: Lithium ion batteries should only be charged by their chargers - which can be powered by a plethora of sources. This is because of the BMS or battery managment system - and that is because they have multiple cells inside that each must be independently charged of the other and have differing rates of charge sometimes. applying charge without a BMS (which BMS is often built into battery pack or in their charger.charge controller but not always) is seriously dangerous if there is no BMS. fire - a fire that's hard to put out- can result. unless you have 1 cell of a lithium it will need its BMS board and they are always a battery "pack" containing multiple cells. cracking open a standard laptop battery often will reveal 18650 lithium cells that can be separately charged and even then the wall plug charges for those have a BMS just for the one cell. The BMS will be a circuit board. the old lead acid batteries of old dont need this and just have current apply to them from the alternator. I have seen lithium ion motorcycle and marine batteries that have their own BMS and are setup to recieve charge straight off the the alternator. They are NOT cheap. The one in my plans does have a built in BMS http://www.lifebluebattery.com/order-lifeblue-lithium-rv-battery/300ah-lifeblue-lithium-rv-battery.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 excellent, they should serve you well. what was the quoted price for your setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 1 hour ago, WME said: A gel is very sensitive to VOLTAGE. 14.4-147v is correct for fast charge, 13.5-13.8v for float/trickle. A battery will only except the amps it needs at the right charge voltage. The only way to overamp a gel battery is to overvoltage the charge. So check your charge voltage. Ill look into what my charge voltage is but was told again today by renogy that the alternator will fry the gel Renogy Numb-a if anybody feels so inclined 909-287-7100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 14 minutes ago, Totem said: do you mean a gel cell lead acid? WME? For SLA there are 3 types, maintenance free or maintenance flooded acid. gel acid or advance glass mat. Its best to use lead battery chargers that support those and what size of battery they are, of course, also this is it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 I was quoting my old multi charger instructions. Your battery has the charge voltages on the side. 14.2-14.4v charge and 13.6-13.8v float. A simple $20 inline amp meter will show charge rate. As the charge level increases the charge amps will self regulate and decrease Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleThought Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 10 hours ago, WME said: I was quoting my old multi charger instructions. Your battery has the charge voltages on the side. 14.2-14.4v charge and 13.6-13.8v float. A simple $20 inline amp meter will show charge rate. As the charge level increases the charge amps will self regulate and decrease how would i regulate that though? what if my alternator is running at say 14.7?? wouldnt that have to be regulated to hit the 14.2 -14.4 on the gel battery? also how can i get a charge from the alternator to float charge voltage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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