Stalling/fuel pump

[jjrbus]

93 Toyota V6 auto 100,000 mile.     Driving along about 60 MPH  and starting up a hill the Toy stalls and will not restart. No prior symptoms  This is Hells canyon WY, no internet, no cell phone.  A good Samaritan stops, declares it is the fuel pump and suggests banging on tank, it works, it starts!

I have check engine light,  code 25

Get a few miles down the road and stalls again, bang on tank, it starts,  a few more miles it stalls, bang on tank, it starts.  Make it to Newcastle WY and late Sat afternoon find a mechanic. He appears to be competent, goes over system and can't find anything wrong 40 psi fuel pressure, 12v everyplace it should be, relays working, fuses good.  He suggests replacing fuel pump, I agree.

This is Newcastle WY, can't order pump until mon and will not be delivered till tue. So here I sit in a garage. parking lot, holding tanks filling, LP tank heading towards empty.

Any thoughts, input, ideas or suggestions greatly appreciated.   Jim

[WME]

How long after your last fuel stop did this happen? Like maybe bad gas. The stock tank has a drain plug, see if you can drain out a qt or so and let it set for awhile and see what it looks like.

[zero]

1 hour ago, jjrbus said:

93 Toyota V6 auto 100,000 mile.     Driving along about 60 MPH  and starting up a hill the Toy stalls and will not restart. No prior symptoms  This is Hells canyon WY, no internet, no cell phone.  A good Samaritan stops, declares it is the fuel pump and suggests banging on tank, it works, it starts!

I have check engine light,  code 25

.   Jim

Sounds like a bad fuel-pump to me except it is odd that it quit while you were driving.  Usually weak pumps get problems getting started after they've been off for awhile.  Kind of unusual to quit while running down the road.  Regardless, banging on anything electrical and getting it to work means bad contacts somewhere. In the wire-harness or inside the fuel-pump motor. If it was mine, I wouldn't be driving anywhere without a spare new pump anyway. One of those items I don't trust and can leave me dead-on-the-road somewhere. Ocam's Razor dictates it's a mechanical problem and not electric. I.e. bad contact somewhere.  Most likely worn brushes inside the pump-motor. If it was in a winter-salt area - I'd be thinking harness connections too.

[jjrbus]

 Thanks for the responses.  With poor internet connection I have surfed the web and the vast majority of fuel pump failures are when engine is shut off.  On the other hand my good Samaritan said the exact same thing had happened to him with a Ford.

I had used up about 1/2 a tank of fuel so unlikely a fuel issue, but will check when they pull the tank.

This is a FL vehicle and the bulk of connectors I have had apart were clean.

I spent some time with the Toy running wiggling wires and connectors  to see if anything would happen, nothing did. In the meantime I will start and run the Toy to see if the glitch will repete itself. So looks like I will sit here until Tue

.On the bright side I mentioned to a local that I was low on LP and they said they would call someone,  a while later the local propane dealer showed up took my tank and charged me $3 to fill it, gives me a little hope for humanity.   Jim

[Back East Don]

Probably not a lot of diagnostic help but the code 25 is a lean fuel error.  Hey, I looked it up for your year.  Good luck and try to make an adventure out of it.  What else can you do?

[jjrbus]

21 minutes ago, Back East Don said:

Probably not a lot of diagnostic help but the code 25 is a lean fuel error.  Hey, I looked it up for your year.  Good luck and try to make an adventure out of it.  What else can you do?

Thanks for looking it up.  This is a  small town run by Mormons, unlikely there is much to do besides church.

[zero]

Note that code 25 for "lean fuel" also includes "no fuel."      My 1995 Chevy Astrovan had a fuel-pump get so I had to kick the gas tank to get the engine started. Once running though, it seemed ok.  I didn't not run it long that way and put a new fuel-pump in a few days later.  Since nearly every vehicle I own has an electric pump - (not my Ford or Isuzu diesels), I always put a new one in when I buy a vehicle.  I put one in my 1988 Toyota Minicruiser and also in my 1978 Toyota Chinook.  Just not something I want to take a chance on since a new pump is pretty cheap when not replaced in an emergency.  I also carry a spare new pump in both although I've never had one fail yet. Brand new fuel pump is only $14.  I call it very cheap insurance.

By the way - a new fuel pump for my 2008 Suzuki SUV is $1100.  I was going to buy a spare before they are no longer available - but NOT for that kind of money!  Suzuki no longer exists in the USA and parts have gone nuts.  They are also now considered "obsolete" by many sellers and disappearing fast.  I called a junkyard and got a used one for $50 and that still seems like a rip-off.  But it makes me feel better to have it.  Thank the great powers that be that a new fuel pump for a 20-30 year old Toyota can be had for $14.  Yet, for my 8 year old Suzuki XL7, it is $1100 and there are very few around to be had.

[jjrbus]

25 minutes ago, jdemaris said:

Note that code 25 for "lean fuel" also includes "no fuel."      My 1995 Chevy Astrovan had a fuel-pump get so I had to kick the gas tank to get the engine started. Once running though, it seemed ok.  I didn't not run it long that way and put a new fuel-pump in a few days later.  Since nearly every vehicle I own has an electric pump - (not my Ford or Isuzu diesels), I always put a new one in when I buy a vehicle.  I put one in my 1988 Toyota Minicruiser and also in my 1978 Toyota Chinook.  Just not something I want to take a chance on since a new pump is pretty cheap when not replaced in an emergency.  I also carry a spare new pump in both although I've never had one fail yet. Brand new fuel pump is only $14.  I call it very cheap insurance.

By the way - a new fuel pump for my 2008 Suzuki SUV is $1100.  I was going to buy a spare before they are no longer available - but NOT for that kind of money!  Suzuki no longer exists in the USA and parts have gone nuts.  They are also now considered "obsolete" by many sellers and disappearing fast.  I called a junkyard and got a used one for $50 and that still seems like a rip-off.  But it makes me feel better to have it.  Thank the great powers that be that a new fuel pump for a 20-30 year old Toyota can be had for $14.  Yet, for my 8 year old Suzuki XL7, it is $1100 and there are very few around to be had.

I looked code 25 up also and did not see "no fuel", That is interesting.

Where are you getting new fuel pump for $14.   I am not able to do long web search but all the ones I see are close to $200.

[Back East Don]

2 hours ago, jdemaris said:

"no fuel."

Sounds pretty lean to me.

[Back East Don]

2 hours ago, jjrbus said:

Thanks for looking it up.  This is a  small town run by Mormons, unlikely there is much to do besides church.

It was only on the second read that I got Mormons out of that sentence.

[jjrbus]

11 minutes ago, Back East Don said:

It was only on the second read that I got Mormons out of that sentence.

Dat's funny!

 

11 minutes ago, Back East Don said:

It was only on the second read that I got Mormons out of that sentence.

 

[zero]

Rock Auto has the one for $14.   I would think some of those Mormons have lots to do.  Especially those with a bunch of extra wives.

My code book says . . .

25: AIR/FUEL RATIO LEAN INDICATOR--LEAN SIGNAL SENT TO ECU FROM O2 SENSOR 
--INJECTOR FAULT(S)
--FUEL PRESSURE
--OXYGEN SENSOR
--AIRFLOW METER OR MAP SENSOR
--IGNITION
--ECU

[jjrbus]

Thanks JD, I am on a weak wifi signal from Pizza Hut and not able to do much searching and of course the mifi does not have a signal here.    Jim

[WME]

Your lucky Newcastle is a big town here in WY. Unless you have lots of time, your going have to go with NAPA and not Rockauto. Figure on $150.00 for a pump and all the bits needed to install it.

https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/ATM15122405/ATM15122405_0249090194

[zero]

$150 for a $30 Airtex pump is a rip-off.  Thus why I try to pre-buy parts when possible.

[WME]

Realty in Newcastle WY. There maybe a CARQUEST, but the pricing will be similar

[jjrbus]

Not only is it a rip off, I'm not even 80% sure it will fix the problem and I detest throwing parts at an issue.  I would order one but I am not sure UPS comes here more than once a month.

I am reading on hunting down this problem and one of the checks is to jumper FP to B+ in the diagnostic port to see if the pump comes on.  So if the pump does not fix the issue could I drive with FP and B+ jumped?

[WME]

Drive it until it quits, then jumper and see if the pump comes on. You may or may not be able to see the connectors for the pump, but if you can, drive till it quits and then wiggle the connector with out thumping the gas tank.

[jjrbus]

25 minutes ago, WME said:

Drive it until it quits, then jumper and see if the pump comes on. You may or may not be able to see the connectors for the pump, but if you can, drive till it quits and then wiggle the connector with out thumping the gas tank.

Good idea, if the pump does come on with the jumper could I drive like that?

[zero]

8 hours ago, jjrbus said:

Good idea, if the pump does come on with the jumper could I drive like that?

Maybe someone will correct me here.  As I recall, that setup uses a constant-run fuel-pump that just dumps excess fuel out the pressure-regulator.  My memory might be off but I think that is how it works. I.e., no cycling.  If I am correct, then driving with a jumper ought to be fine.  By the way - it might be worth your while to call Rock Auto and find out where their nearest fuel pump is in stock.  They have warehouses all over the country. I sometimes get parts from them in one day.    The mark-up at some of these franchise auto-parts stores is amazing and kind of depressing.  

[Maineah]

Yes the pump runs all the time the engine is running it is capable over 80 PSI most of the fuel it pumps is returned to the tank via the pressure regulator it's working pressure is around 35 PSI. If banging on the tank gets it going again it most likely is the pump. GM had huge issues with pumps early on, I stopped one morning for coffee and switch off the cop car I was driving dumb plan because I was driving it to the shop for a no start problem. Didn't I get some looks as I was laying on the ground beating on the cop car gas tank to get it running again. It is unusual for them to stop on the road generally it's a no start problem and beating on the tank would often get them going again so if directly wiring it fixes it then you'll need to look at the system that keeps it running. I can not remember if the 93 had an air flow meter with a vain or it was a hot wire type but if it has a vain (pretty big air box) the air flow past the vain (trap door what ever) is what kept the pump running. I have seen incidents of air leaks in the intake rubber joints allowing enough air in to not open the vain and that would shut the pump off maybe the joints are opening up climbing hills I don't know but you may check their integrity.

[WME]

If you need to jumper things long term (like to go home) I think running the wires into the cab and using a switch to turn things on/off. Save you from having to get out and open the hood to buy gas or lunch.

P.S. Start paying attention to the weather reports and road conditions for the next week or so.  http://map.wyoroad.info/hi.html

 

[jjrbus]

2 hours ago, jdemaris said:

Maybe someone will correct me here.  As I recall, that setup uses a constant-run fuel-pump that just dumps excess fuel out the pressure-regulator.  My memory might be off but I think that is how it works. I.e., no cycling.  If I am correct, then driving with a jumper ought to be fine.  By the way - it might be worth your while to call Rock Auto and find out where their nearest fuel pump is in stock.  They have warehouses all over the country. I sometimes get parts from them in one day.    The mark-up at some of these franchise auto-parts stores is amazing and kind of depressing.  

Thanks for the input.  I am out in the wilderness here and will have to pay the piper on this one as I have a schedule to meet.

[jjrbus]

1 hour ago, Maineah said:

Yes the pump runs all the time the engine is running it is capable over 80 PSI most of the fuel it pumps is returned to the tank via the pressure regulator it's working pressure is around 35 PSI. If banging on the tank gets it going again it most likely is the pump. GM had huge issues with pumps early on, I stopped one morning for coffee and switch off the cop car I was driving dumb plan because I was driving it to the shop for a no start problem. Didn't I get some looks as I was laying on the ground beating on the cop car gas tank to get it running again. It is unusual for them to stop on the road generally it's a no start problem and beating on the tank would often get them going again so if directly wiring it fixes it then you'll need to look at the system that keeps it running. I can not remember if the 93 had an air flow meter with a vain or it was a hot wire type but if it has a vain (pretty big air box) the air flow past the vain (trap door what ever) is what kept the pump running. I have seen incidents of air leaks in the intake rubber joints allowing enough air in to not open the vain and that would shut the pump off maybe the joints are opening up climbing hills I don't know but you may check their integrity.

Would like to have video of that, officer goes berserk and destroys police car!

[jjrbus]

29 minutes ago, WME said:

If you need to jumper things long term (like to go home) I think running the wires into the cab and using a switch to turn things on/off. Save you from having to get out and open the hood to buy gas or lunch.

P.S. Start paying attention to the weather reports and road conditions for the next week or so.  http://map.wyoroad.info/hi.html

 

Good thinking, I should be able to get wire and switch when I get to Gillette.  Will watch weather.      Jim

[Derek up North]

Just now, jjrbus said:

I should be able to get wire and switch ...

Might as well cover all the bases and add an inline fuse to your circuit!  

[WME]

You on the road yet?

[Maineah]

Been awhile but I believe you can jump IGN to FP then the pump will come on with the key.

[jjrbus]

Not on the road yet, mechanic told me fuel pump will be in this morning and they will start job at 8 am.    I find myself  hoping the fuel pump sock is filled with crud and I do not have some intermittent electrical Gremlin

[jjrbus]

This gets so tiring the tank is very rusty inside.  They ordered a new pump it is a Bosch 69487 does not come with a filter, NAPA has no filters, so wait a day or try to get something to match. I would not use old filter it is in bad condition, looks OE. Mechanic  finds a Carquest FS199 which is larger but seems to be a good fit on the pump.  

[WME]

Drain the fuel tank, pour in a cup of diesel and a triple handful of nuts n bolts and shake. Gravel will also work, lots of sharp edges to knock off the rust.

P.S. Always park your RV with the fuel tank full to prevent condensation which causes rust.

[jjrbus]

Don't pay the ransom, I escaped!   Fuel pump and labor came to $466 and not even a kiss!   I have gotten to Gillette with no issues so am hoping the pump was the problem.  I will try to make Cody tomorrow.

I would not bet money on this, it feels like I have more power and the Toy seems to be climbing hills better, I know it is subjective but sure seems that way.     Jim

[WME]

Gillette to Cody will take you over some hills you will soon know if your fuel system is up to par. Weather looks OK for the next 2 weeks, i.e. snow is above 8,000ft.

Edited September 15, 2016 by WME

[jjrbus]

55 minutes ago, WME said:

Gillette to Cody will take you over some hills you will soon know if your fuel system is up to par. Weather looks OK for the next 2 weeks, i.e. snow is above 8,000ft.

We are going to try the 16 to 310 to Cody.

[WME]

Buffalo, to Worland to Graybull to Cody. If you like old planes then the rest stop in Graybull is way cool. Graybull used to be the home of Hawkins and Powers Fire Bombers.