Timing Belt

[davidtan]

Hi Guys,

I'm Planning my first long trip to Oregon from Sacramento next month and prepping the Toyohome, I have 62 k right now on the engine and was wondering when the timing belt needs to be changed. I was not sure if it was 60K or 90K. I dont want to start taking to many things apart  before getting ready for a long trip. I still need to balance the front tires, check the alignment,  and figure out why my park lights wont go off (my suspicion is the alarm on this one). Your 2c's appreciated. Best

[linda s]

I wouldn't worry about the timing belt on the 4 cylinder engine but get the valves adjusted for best performance. Why weren't your tires balanced when they were installed. Does it shake when you drive it? 

Linda S

[Derek up North]

The V6 has a timing belt that is on the Service Schedule to be changed at 60k mile intervals along with 'check & adjust' the valves. The 22R & 22R-E have a timing chain which have no scheduled change interval but 'check & adjust' valves at 30k miles.

[payaso del mar]

Interesting how manufacturers set the timing belt change intervals.....

our 2004 Sienna, which uses the 3.3 version of that same V6, specifies 90K miles. 

Honda uniformly says 65K and I personally know 2 people who hadn't done it and who lost belt, with accompanying Expen$ive Noises, before 70K. 

Subaru says 110K. 

and yet they all use more or less identical belts...Mitsuboshi is the OEM for most all of em.  and while differences in valve spring pressure, how hot the t-belt area of engine is, and maybe radius of bend the belt has to make could make some difference, 50% difference in life expectancy.....????!!

[Derek up North]

Equally baffling (to me at least) is that I've never come across any North American mention of change intervals in terms of YEARS. Not so in Europe.

http://aam-europe.contitech.de/pages/downloads/docs/Poster-Wechselintervalle_de_en_es.pdf

Something to consider for those with a 25 year old belt installed. "But it's only done 30,000 miles!".

[zero]

2 hours ago, Derek up North said:

Equally baffling (to me at least) is that I've never come across any North American mention of change intervals in terms of YEARS. Not so in Europe.

http://aam-europe.contitech.de/pages/downloads/docs/Poster-Wechselintervalle_de_en_es.pdf

Something to consider for those with a 25 year old belt installed. "But it's only done 30,000 miles!".

I have in many OEM service manuals for USA branded cars and trucks.  The wording is often something like "inspect the timing belt every 60K miles or 4 years".  Even without the extra "four years" included, the "inspection" infers- at least to me - replacement if age-cracks are found.  And if we were talking about a Chevy Vega or Chevette - often every cogged pulley had to be checked too.

[Derek up North]

I would never 'inspect' a timing belt. There's so much labour involved in getting it to the point of being able to inspect, you might as well just install a new one. They're cheap compared to the labour involved.

[jjrbus]

I'll second that one.   I Have seen maybe 10 timing belts in my life, Would you trust someones judgement that has seen a total of 10 belts over a lifetime?   Jim

[Allan]

I had an 81 civic with the 1500 cc engine. I got the car with 90,000 miles an decided at 250,000 it would be a good idea to change the belt. the one that came off looked like the original and was in very good shape.

 

[zero]

25 minutes ago, Allan said:

I had an 81 civic with the 1500 cc engine. I got the car with 90,000 miles an decided at 250,000 it would be a good idea to change the belt. the one that came off looked like the original and was in very good shape.

 

I had a Honda Accord I got almost new from a Honda dealer (had 50K on it).  I kept bugging the dealer about timing belt and he claimed Honda had no official change interval and they are expected to last the life of the car. I found that hard to believe.  Oddly, at 80K, engine got a lot of upper end noise.  Ended up one lobe of the camshaft was worn off.  Timing belt still looked like new.  But yes - the Honda dealer gave me a new camshaft for free and I DID put in a new belt to go with it.

[zero]

12 hours ago, Derek up North said:

I would never 'inspect' a timing belt. There's so much labour involved in getting it to the point of being able to inspect, you might as well just install a new one. They're cheap compared to the labour involved.

???  On some engines there are inspection ports and there is nearly no labor to inspect.  You just pop the inspection plug out  - look at the belt to look for wear, cracks and check tension.

[zero]

Warning to purists.  The following is NOT about a Toyota.

On subject on when to change timing parts - what would you do in this situation?  Not a Toyota., but also no  a rhetorical question.  I have this beast apart right now.  2008 Suzuki XL-7 SUV.  I got it cheap.  Seller drove it here from down south and it has NO rust.  145K miles.  Check engine light came on and says "loose timing chain or chains."  I bought it in a hurry because I love Suzukis.  Later found out it is 100% GM.  Just a Chevy with a Suzuki name stuck on it. Has the same 3.6  LY7 engine used in some Cadillacs. Seller was in sort of a panic because there are no more Suzuki dealers in the USA.  He was also told the engine had to be removed to access the timing chains.

So here is my situation so far. After doing some research - I found out GM had early failure problems with timing chains until 2009 (just my luck).  I asked a local shop owner who said he had some experience with these engines and gave me a price of $1500-$2000 to do the job.  At first I did NOT want to tackle it because of several new special tools I'd have to buy.  But finally decided to do it myself.

So - got a new, aftermarket timing component set for $275. Also had to buy $200 in new tools. I was able to access the chains without removing the engine.  Now have the engine all apart and guess what?  No wear, anywhere that I can detect.  I mean - the chains, guides, and tensioners are like new.  Pretty impressive for 145,000 miles. So I am sitting here with a new timing chain kit with new sprockets, guides, chains, tensioners and not really sure the new parts are as good as the used ones I just removed.

Also - seems the reason that "check engine light" came on is because two camshafts in one head have too much play sideways.  Another GM problem for this year. Each cam has an electronic sensor at the end and it throws a code if the cam walks around too much.  I went down to my local Chevy dealer and after some pleading - got them to look up the same engine for an Equinox and found a GM repair kit for $21.  Consists of four nylon thrust washers from AISIN (same company that makes the transmissions in our Toyotas).  Ends up my camshaft actuators are also made by AISIN.  So here I am with four washers for repair (although GM recommends I get $1500 in new heads).

What would YOU do? Put the old parts back in or install the new stuff?  The reason why I even question this is this.  I've read many posts of people claiming to have the OEM parts fail at 60K miles, and then new aftermarket fail at 30K.  But - who knows the rest of the story? I was also told, over and over, the engine had to come out and it did not.  I have no way of verifying the quality of the timing parts in the aftermarket kit from DNJ.

I know one thing. I miss the days of "simple timing belts" after seeing this thing.  The timing cover had 8 electronic sensors and there are wires and things to go wrong all over the place. It is a wonder that these vehicles seem to be as reliable as that are.

[Derek up North]

27 minutes ago, jdemaris said:

???  On some engines there are inspection ports and there is nearly no labor to inspect.  You just pop the inspection plug out  - look at the belt to look for wear, cracks and check tension.

Well, we are trying to concentrate on the Toyota V6 aren't we? Unlike (apparently/maybe) Honda, Toyota does have the belt listed to be CHANGED at 60k miles.

Can't help with your Suzuki.

[Up north mi]

I like hearing about other problems that people have good and interesting things.JD does a great job with his posts and good pics.

[payaso del mar]

Derek, I appreciate where you're coming from, but 1) I like getting an overview of any engineering or mechanical issue, gives me a better feel for the parameters, plus some of the stuff falls in the "damn that makes me glad I bought a Toyota instead" realm (like Suzuki V6 cam drive arrangements....), and 2) JD spends maybe more time than most of the rest of us combined answering other folks' Qs, often with pix......I've learned quite a bit from his posts....I figure he's earned the right to ask input on something even if a little tangential

 

JD, IF it were a Japanese engine, i'd have an easy answer:  put it back together with the original stuff, no Q.  If an experienced eye such as yours "detects no wear, anywhere", it's probably OK to continue using.  Not like you haven't seen a cam drive chain before....    it might be that all that complexity due to the intermediate shafts and 3 chains means that the assembly wears slower due to not having a single long run of chain?  sorry you had to drop that kind of $ to get that far when it was a "GM issue".  (I sang for joy when Toyota bought GM's share of Subaru...!!)   Unless the replacement parts are Japanese, I can always detect visible quality differences from the old stuff, and that's not even going into little stuff like metallurgy or measuring with the micrometers.  I get the impression from your post that you have same impression of the stuff you got.

1.  how many hours' labor is it to get to that point?  2.  could you return the parts?  how much restocking fee would you eat?  unless answer to one of those Qs trumped it, I would still be inclined to put it back together with the original components. 

[zero]

I can't return the new parts. I bought them late last summer from Rock Auto. Note I love Rock Auto and their customer service is great. But I let 6 months go by and also opened the box and it says clearly - "cannot return if box is opened."  The new parts look like good quality but I have no wear to determine metal quality from one gear or chain tto another. I could rub a file on it and guess at hardness and that is about it.  The new gears all have heat marks on the teeth so it looks as if proper heat treating was done. And the guides?  The OEM GM parts are plastic and so are the new ones. I have no way of knowing if one plastic is as good as another. I do know this. If I go to NAPA and buy their highest quality kit for near $500 - it is the same kit I got for less then $300 from Rock Auto.  DNJ brand (stands for "Domestic and Japanese."

I WILL say this. I have never had an engine apart with 150,000 miles with no signs of wear.  Not just the timing parts. The idlers, water-pump, etc. all feel like new.  I've had a lot of 80s overhead-cam Chevys apart with timing belts and cog-gears worn out at 60,000 miles.  In fact, Chevy Chevette and Ford Pintos were known for it.

I spent near two days getting it all apart - but I was being very slow and careful.  There are countless wire-harness connectors I was afraid of breaking and almost everyone has a different method of unlocking. If I had to do this a 2nd time - I'd have it all apart in 4-5 hours. The worst part is the $200 in new tools I had to get that are of no use on anything  but the GM LY-7 V6 engine.

I have had Geo or Chevy Trackers for years.  They are 100% Suzuki and built by "CAMI" in Canada. GREAT vehicles. My 2001 has 250,000 miles and runs like new with NO major repairs ever. If is because of them I bought this 2008 Suzuki XL-7 not knowing it is really 100% a GM. Oh well.

On the subject of Toyota - the idea that they built the 3 liter V6 with a 60K mile timing-belt replacement interval is ridiculous in my opinion. Toyota is supposed to make products better then Ford Pintos or Chevy Vegas and Chevettes.

[payaso del mar]

I may be a Jap-part snob on my other vehicles, but on the ole Bandito, it was impossible to resist the allure of absurdly cheap (close-out priced) parts at Rock.....and they seem to consistently deliver here in 2-3 days even without paying for expedited shipping.

hmmmm.... in light of 8-10 hrs to do job and fact that parts will take up space in your [no doubt overcrowded] garage til then.......I dunno.  are you going to keep it, or flip it to get a "real" zooki?

I know all about them fiber-composite timing gears on Pintos, especially the part about how a 17 yr old can make same fly apart from centrifugal force if he holds the engine in first too long, thereafter leading to Long Discussions with parents about Driving Styles and Defective Fords.  some days I wonder that my parents didn't just drown me while they had a chance,.....

on change intervals, my point was kinda that I suspect the intervals are pretty arbitrary and based more on mfgr's perceptions of its customers than on precise engineering determinations.  it's not that the non-interference engines are the ones with the longer intervals, as subis are very definitely interference engines.  the age point is a good one:  why would we assume that the t-belt, which lives in a hotter environment than much of the rubber on the engine, is immune from the turning-to-rock-due-to-age-and-heat syndrome?

 

[zero]

I drove the "old school" Subarus for years.  Loyale 4WD wagons with 1.8 liter engines as I recall. The ones with manual trans were real 4WD, and not-so-much if with an automatic trans (I found that out the hard way). Automatics only had 4WD if you hit the gas and lost it when the engine was at low throttle (a design that makes NO sense to me).  With those 1.8s, I know of many that got trashed engines at around 100K miles if the belts were not changed. It was always the first thing I put in new whenever I picked up a used Subaru.  

[Derek up North]

4 hours ago, jdemaris said:

With those 1.8s, I know of many that got trashed engines at around 100K miles if the belts were not changed. It was always the first thing I put in new whenever I picked up a used Subaru.  

Sounds like a good plan, given that Subaru recommends that they be changed at 60k mile intervals. But I don't understand why I get the impression that you don't think the same would apply to the Toyota V6.

[Back East Don]

43 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

 I don't understand why I get the impression that you don't think the same would apply to the Toyota V6.

Ok I understand he gets a bit of a rap for going off topic but I read the tread and nowhere does he say or even imply that.  Here is what you said.  " I would never 'inspect' a timing belt".  Any?  Which timing belt specifically?  This conversation went astray so one would be forgiven for taking the position that this is only a toyota site.  While cannon for some it is not really seen much in the way of practice or is for that matter, practical.  Are you just baiting this conversation?  Are you taking some sort of stance on this as moderator?

I read the thread the whole way through.  I see no issues with any of his statements from a practical or applicable point of view.

[Derek up North]

I don't think the Toyota V6 has a peep hole to catch a glimpse of the timing belt, so you've got to disassemble the engine to the point where it's little extra work to replace the belt. Why would you do all the disassembly work, inspect the belt and then put it all back together again? I've also heard that a visual inspection is not a good way of telling if a belt is about to fail. Tires blow out sometimes even though they look fine.

No, this isn't a stance as a moderator. I've been known to wander off topic at times. As a moderater, if the topic starts off as Toyota MH related, it belongs. If it starts out as not Toyota MH related, it should be posted in the 'Miscellaneous and Non-related (Share anything non-toyotahome related ...)'.

[Back East Don]

I'm reluctant to dive too deep into this but here goes.  It is a matter of perspective often and there is always differences in approach.  Fundamentally are service intervals dogma?

I know a little about automotive and the internet makes it a lot easier to research the subject.  I have a large family and married into a larger extended one.  For some reason, I am the one that get chosen to help find cars that are affordable and hopefully reliable. Too often I get involved in the service also.   I mostly buy new cars for my wife and I and let the dealer do all the work. For my kids, a couple of unmarried sisters and some nieces, nephews and in-laws that are not as fortunate in life and careers yet, I am the fleet manager. 

The timing belt issue is one I've dealt a lot with the last few years.  Example: I bought a small car for a brother-in-law that just arrived in this country.  Paid $1200 private sale.  Owner had no idea on much of the service history.  Engine was a bit past the service interval for the timing belt.  Car needed tires, struts, brakes and more.  I flushed the fluids and replaced the hoses and belts.  Took care of all the basic service stuff that can go wrong with an old car.  I looked into how much work the timing belt was going to be.  While I was working on the rest of it, I partially removed one of the covers and had a look.  I would have liked to have replaced it for peace of mind but in the end I made what for me was a practical decision, take the chance.  It looked good, leave it in there.  That was 3 years ago and that car is still on the road.  His daughters drive it daily now and we got him a toyota minivan.  It too was right past the service interval for the timing belt.  I negotiated with the dealer to include its replacement along with a couple other things I wanted done.  Different vehicle, different choice.   

Some have a tolerance for risk, others want peace of mind.  I'm not saying either is incorrect.  So where would you have fallen with a $1200 fixer upper on the timing belt?  It would have cost big at the garage. Way more than I paid for the car. 

I've spent more on fixing my Itasca than I paid for it not even factoring in the interior rehab.  Last year was pretty costly.  I might get one more season out of it and pass it along and move up to something larger and newer.  We'll just have to see how this year goes.  Even at only 65k miles it is still plenty old. The biggest factor in most of this is just the math.  A ratio of risk, costs and investment.

[zero]

10 hours ago, Derek up North said:

 But I don't understand why I get the impression that you don't think the same would apply to the Toyota V6.

That is not my point at all. I didn't say I don't believe the 60K change interval that Toyota has in the service manual. What I believe is it is poor engineering for a truck engine. Some el-cheapo car for that time period - I could better understand.

[Derek up North]

I'd have to ASSUME that based on the state of the art timing belt technology when Toyota was writing the Service Schedules that 60k miles was assumed conservative/safe enough that they wouldn't end up with many stranded customers. Would they make the same 60k recommendation with a modern material/design belt? Are OEM belts now sold by Toyota (safely) capable of more? Are Aftermarket?

Another 'baffler' for me is why Toyota recommends the V6 valve clearances at 60k miles and 72 months! As well as the 22R-E at 30k miles and 36 months! A 'Best Before' date on rubber parts, but valve clearances??

[Maineah]

On 4/7/2016 at 7:44 AM, jdemaris said:

I had a Honda Accord I got almost new from a Honda dealer (had 50K on it).  I kept bugging the dealer about timing belt and he claimed Honda had no official change interval and they are expected to last the life of the car. I found that hard to believe.  Oddly, at 80K, engine got a lot of upper end noise.  Ended up one lobe of the camshaft was worn off.  Timing belt still looked like new.  But yes - the Honda dealer gave me a new camshaft for free and I DID put in a new belt to go with it.

During that era we kept Honda cams in stock and bought Honda's at auction with bad cams (usually listed as misfire) 20 minutes later back together and off to different auction. As big and wide as the belt is on a Toyota 3 liter it should last 200K.

[payaso del mar]

Derek, I think that's due to difference between screw adjusted clearances and shim-over-bucket.......latter maintains stable clearances over longer period.  not sure on the time (as opposed to mileage) interval on that one.....suspect that's a function of "corporate habit".....they're not used to following the words "30K miles or" with the words "72 months".

not sure if it's different on the truck 3.0, but on the 3.3 version in the Sienna, you don't have to pull things too far apart to get a look at the belt....not a peep hole, but a removable upper t-belt cover.  it's not that hard to get a general idea of how bad the belt is....you use the same signs that you look at on other drive belts and rubber bits.....dried?  cracked?  glazed appearance?   ya just err on the side of caution......

the problem on any of these gambles is that if it's an interference engine, the interference gets pretty expensive pretty fast if you lose the bet.  the cheap version is you just bend a few valves.  stopping the engine suddenly from high rpm by slamming the pistons into a solid object isn't really friendly to the rod or main bearings either, I suspect.  if the valve head snaps off instead of the stem bending, it gets really ugly....snapped and bent con rods, head usually destroyed absent some expert TIG and machine work, and block cracks around the head bolt holes.  if it were a non-interference engine, i'd be tempted to run it til it broke cept for stranding issues.

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by payaso del mar

[Back East Don]

23 minutes ago, payaso del mar said:

 if it were a non-interference engine, i'd be tempted to run it til it broke cept for stranding issues.

That is always one of the first question I ask when looking at used vehicles just after, does it have a timing chain or belt.

3 years ago I hit a record mark of buying 12 vehicles in a year.  Last year 5.  This year I've already bought 2 and am looking at maybe another 4 or 5.  I started my own company this year and so I am officially a fleet manager with 3 corporate vehicles.  Add to that the new drivers in the extended family looking to get cars, this is turning into a real pain in the butt.  Neighbors must be wondering what the hell is going on as the driveway looks like a used car lot at times.

Formula is, new driver + cheap car = do all the work that will keep it running cheaply like belts, fluids and hoses along with the safety issues like brakes, tires and such then drive them into the ground for as little money as possible.  The 2 winners so far are a 2000 Jeep Cherokee and a 2001 Mazda Protege bought 3 years ago and have been driven like crazy.  Still running strong though the Jeep is going to need an alternator soon.

There have been a number of posts such as this and I get no one wants to be stranded on a trip far from home.  I would still have a hard time justifying spending some of the money I see some are going to spend to avoid it.  Perhaps if mine were nicer and worth more money but here in the northeast, these are not as expensive as the west coast seem to be.  Others certainly disagree and would rather follow the service intervals absent any questioning or research.