LC Engineering cylinder head anyone?

[Totem]

well I pulled the trigger on a complete motor with the affore mentioned hi torque head... comes with 7 year 70,000 mile parts and labor warranty; and that's great.

it goes in on the 18th of this month and I will be minus $3000 out the door including install, So I was talked into $1000 more than I wanted to spend but for the 7 year 70,000 mile warranty its worth it.

originally I had planned to just burn out my stock motor then replace but the thought of having that happen at Yellowstone or worse quickly killed that idea.

Anyone want a stock motor? I get to keep it in this price.

[payaso del mar]

far better plan than just the head.  what's the point of improved flow if your rings are worn or valve timing off due to component wear to the point that you don't have full pumping efficiency?  and you'll feel more comfy using that extra power with new oil pump and timing bits.  that's not a bad price at all for a complete motor, esp from a specialty outfit.

[WME]

Where is the engine from?

[Totem]

pmcmachine.com

it was by far the best deal I could find. Their heads are similar to LC engineering; LC would only make an engine with a carb for racing however as a full unit so they fell out of the running.

 

I found out about them (you guessed it) from ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182057802181

but I had a custom one built instead of the one above; they actually have a custom build for toy homes. Call them and order over phone; they will honor the $1495 deal; there is a $400 non refundable core shipping handling charge also.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Totem

[Totem]

canceled the order. too many complaints.

[Totem]

WME where was your engine from or did you just do bolt ons?

[payaso del mar]

interesting.  listing looked pretty no-BS (they list details of the parts used, which I like....but is the timing chain single or double row?) and it looked like the only neg FB was due to timeliness

want to find a mechanic who really cares about your engine and about you being stranded?  here's a crazy thought:  many good machine shops will do the bottom end assembly (crank, pistons, and rods into block)  for a relatively nominal amount once you already have em doing the boring/honing, any crank work needed, balancing*, etc.    The rest of it is pretty simple with a manual** and some patience.....budget a solid weekend to finish the motor assembly and another to get it in and running.  hooking up the carb and all the vac lines and installing the ancillaries is harder than assembling the engine.  have a gearhead friend come by and check you on any critical steps you're not sure of.

 

 

*  if you're building an engine, you WANT to balance it.  especially if the motor is going into a big tin resonance box.  even more especially if the motor is famous for its "vibes".

** get a Haynes and a copy or pdf of the Idiot Book.

[WME]

I redid my engine my self and used the HP parts from Engine builder. A local machine shop did the throttle body work.

[payaso del mar]

if you find a 22RE core, you can rebuild it at your leisure while you drive it with your current engine....then sell your core when the new one is in.

[Totem]

i read up on complaints from folks in the taco crawlers sites. they apparently have F bbb rating and have taken peoples money without delivering anything at all.

I'll be canceling the credit card charge in 3 days if they do not refund.

Right off the bat they charged my card before a shipment occurred and that was the red flag for me.

 

[Totem]

WME doesnt engrbldr also sell fully built motors?

 

[WME]

4 hours ago, Totem said:

WME doesnt engrbldr also sell fully built motors?

 

They do some but most don't make it out of Portland.

[Totem]

Been hunting around for a decent drop-in refurb motor and had great opportunity to talk to the owner of APR automotive in Colorado.

He has been doing 22res since 1982 and says no remanufactured 22re no matter who machines them will be as good as an original factory one on tolerances etc and the heat and stress the rigs put on the reman motors eats them up quick.

That being said he advocated better headers and overbored larger pistons as the safest way to make power with longest lifespan. He wasn't against the torque pro head from LC engineering though. I'm thinking of getting a motor from his shop though he implored me to run my current one to death first if saving money is of any interest.

He was very adamant that the 22re will get killed prematurely by 66% of its normal possible lifespan in a camper application.

He says they all burn down around 100k, but in regular pickups could make it to 300,000.

 

Just curious if Derek or anyone here keeps a running average length a motor will go in a 21 footer; in my mind I know I am due for overhaul and would like to do it instead of breaking down on the road...

[payaso del mar]

I don't entirely agree.  he may be taking economics into consideration, in terms of what all can he do to remanufacture an engine that people will pay for, but there are a LOT of areas where the rebuilder can build the engine to tighter tolerances than the factory AND can build can build an engine for his specific application, solely because he's doing hand fitting and assembly rather than production line manufacturing. 

piston, pin, and rod weights (factory doesn't get em within 1/10 gram, but you can, easily. think this might make a difference in smoothness of a motor with 3.5" stroke?))  piston to wall clearances.  ring end gaps. main and rod bearing clearances.  oil pump internal clearances. etc etc etc.

he is right that putting any motor into something that weighs 2x what it was designed for shortens its longevity.  VW Type 4s probably live a lot longer in 914s than in 6000lb fully loaded WEstys too.  but toyhomes aren't that different from the duty the truck and motor see in most of the world...it's a commercial truck and carries huge loads most places.

[Totem]

yeah he told me to sell my sunrader and get a v6 dolphin. said the head gasket recall was mostly a myth; which in this forum it certainly is not a myth.

his price on a motor was 2370 delivered. This is really turning out to be a bad experience for me...now I realize why so many people just overhaul existing motors; but local mechs don't want to do an overhaul they just want a drop in to clear the bay quickly. each motor rebuilder I check on either has changed their name 100 times and has F rating, or has history of not responding to complaints; even the high priced 24 week lead time 22reperformance guys had a B- rating.

Finding a decent machine shop that remakes these is turning out to be tough; they are all flash on websites and when you call them they basically try to talk you out of it. In fact the only shop that tried to talk me into it was the F- rated PMC... 

This is turning out to be really difficult

 

[payaso del mar]

everyone talks about the 3.0 head gaskets as if it were the end of the world.  not the end of the world to replace head gaskets, more like a weekend worth of work on V6 and a day on a 22RE.  it's just a huge labor bill if you have someone else do it.  coupled with the Elephant in the Room....the overriding knowledge that a 3R-z has most of the benefits of the 3.0 with few of the downsides.

you're seeing why a custom motor often goes for 4-5000 or more.....LOTS of time consuming hand labor to do it right.  the problem is, this hand labor needs to be done and costs the same whether it's a mundane 22RE or a Lotus Type 904.  and you're seeing why I suggested a core engine.....those can't be that expensive or hard to find in the Rust Belt.  I still think you should do it yourself, with the aid of the best local machine shop (I call all the high end shops and dealers in an area and ask who they take their machine work to...you usually see a consensus pretty fast.)

look at it this way:  better to be a little discouraged now, before you've dropped big $ on a motor and a lot of work on putting it in, than to have pulled the trigger and be kicking yourself.......

 

 

[Maineah]

D.O.A racing if you want a go fast 22RE. The 3 liter head gaskets are not that bad the valve adjustment is you need to know what you are doing and have access to the shims. 

[payaso del mar]

similar to a lot of toyotae and no different than any other shim-over-bucket arrangement.  when I did my Taco, I was able to use the special tool for bucket hold-down that I had left from working on air cooled Yamaha motorcycles.  the snag is fishing the shims out without removing cams....I usually find it easier to just pull the cams.

[Maineah]

13 hours ago, payaso del mar said:

similar to a lot of toyotae and no different than any other shim-over-bucket arrangement.  when I did my Taco, I was able to use the special tool for bucket hold-down that I had left from working on air cooled Yamaha motorcycles.  the snag is fishing the shims out without removing cams....I usually find it easier to just pull the cams.

Air and a magnet works great that's were the tool comes into play. Unfortunately many people that want to tackle that project have never seen a cam shaft or know what a micrometer is. Jag had shimmed tappets since 1948 they however were under the buckets and the cam had to be removed to get to the dime sized shims.The 4 liter Tacoma has incremental buckets and they have to be replaced by size. In the fine print the clearance should last the life of the valve as all the parts should wear at the same rate this however is not all ways true and the 3 liter engine did have a tendency to tighten up the exhaust valves. It was more valve stem stretch than wear.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Derek up North

[payaso del mar]

I actually have a special magnet and pair of long shop tweezers I use solely for that job, but wasn't able to get the ones from #4 cylinder out with cams in place.  yeah, I think all the current taco engines replace the entire bucket instead of just the shim, an engineering decision I don't quite understand. 

Toyota must have put some hellacious valve springs on that 3.0 if they were stretching the valves.  most clearance change is due to valve head and seat wear causing the valves to recede into head, but it may be different on that motor. 

didn't know that about the Jags.  they were always such a frustrating mix of unbelievably advanced engineering and archaic Britness, much like Lotuses.  had a chance to buy a rust free E for 12K about 10 yrs back; passed on it cuz it had a 2.3 Ford drivetrain installed (jag drivetrain came with, but on floor).  poor decision I've regretted much......  

[Maineah]

Well that's the point of shimmed valves the shim the valve and the seat (least of the parts because they are pretty hard) all tend to wear the same so the clearance should remain the same. All valves stems stretch it's enviable being pounded into the seat every time it closes by the spring yeah it's not a whole lot but yeah they do stretch so a couple of thousands on a short clearance can reduce the clearance to a point they won't close. The 3 liter did have a tendency to tighten up the clearance. In some thing with a lot of moving valve parts such as a 22RE the clearance usually loosened up due to parts wear, loose valve clearance will make the valve timing late (not so noticeable in something considered low performance) but in the case of a high reving performance engine it becomes more of an issue. I was in the hills of Wales England and an old farmer had to show me his E type, he had grafted a Ford 6 cylinder diesel into it I still have a picture some where. Back in the 70's and early 80's I worked for British Leyland.

 

[Totem]

hmm back to the original topic then.. be it somewhat adjusted.

I wont be doing the rebuild on the short block myself and if i buy a prebuilt head from LCE in theory I should be able to mate it to a short block of choosing...

ive pretty much checked out every reman make and only one had good things said about the 22reperformance.com but are on a 24 week wait.. which I am ok with.

at 3k per motor I would be expecting things to be done right.

However I also found another Japanese company based in Texas called JIS Engine. JIS has an A+ bbb rating and that simply cannot be done without running a decent shop where problems are getting fairly settled.

Their prices seem decent and no core charge to monkey with...

SO now I am thinking.. mate the JIS shortblock to the LCE head, buy the gaskets and oil pump or whatever is missing on the inbetween.

Anyone hear of JIS?

of course for the same price i can get a stage 2 at 22reperformance ... all roads seem to be leading back to them.

 

http://jisengine.com/

Edited April 11, 2016 by Totem

[payaso del mar]

get thee behind me satan time......how about a turbo'd 3RZ?  THAT will get ya there afore 3 am.......

https://elpaso.craigslist.org/pts/5504310086.html

[Derek up North]

Good at high altitudes too.

[Maineah]

11 hours ago, payaso del mar said:

get thee behind me satan time......how about a turbo'd 3RZ?  THAT will get ya there afore 3 am.......

https://elpaso.craigslist.org/pts/5504310086.html

Good price the turbo kit is probably worth that.

[Maineah]

18 hours ago, Totem said:

hmm back to the original topic then.. be it somewhat adjusted.

I wont be doing the rebuild on the short block myself and if i buy a prebuilt head from LCE in theory I should be able to mate it to a short block of choosing...

ive pretty much checked out every reman make and only one had good things said about the 22reperformance.com but are on a 24 week wait.. which I am ok with.

at 3k per motor I would be expecting things to be done right.

However I also found another Japanese company based in Texas called JIS Engine. JIS has an A+ bbb rating and that simply cannot be done without running a decent shop where problems are getting fairly settled.

Their prices seem decent and no core charge to monkey with...

SO now I am thinking.. mate the JIS shortblock to the LCE head, buy the gaskets and oil pump or whatever is missing on the inbetween.

Anyone hear of JIS?

of course for the same price i can get a stage 2 at 22reperformance ... all roads seem to be leading back to them.

 

http://jisengine.com/

JIS has been around for a good while they started importing low mileage engines from Japan. I do not know if Japan is still doing it but as a vehicle ages the tax increases so by the time they have 60K they are getting way expensive to drive so they are parted out. It was one way to increase new vehicle sales and cleaner running car and trucks.

[payaso del mar]

Stage 2 motor for an RV is not a good match unless you go with stage 1 type cam and compression ratio.  PAECO builds what they call a "super reliability engine", which is a Stage 2 detuned to Stage 1 power output, which might be more what you want, whomever you have build it.  me, I LIKE your plan of getting a good short block and head and building the motor.  not hard, a few evenings, and you'll know your engine inside and out. 

that particular turbo conversion would have been a handful (turbos way too big, sized for peak power....for an RV app, you'd want a low-boost, fast spool-up setup akin to what Volvo or VW/Audi build), but I personally think the only practical ways to get significant power for these are either forced aspiration or an engine swap.  The 3RZ is the easiest swap compared to a V6, but that's still a  party given that, for example, the intake and exhaust are on opposite sides between the 22RE and 3RZ.........

[Totem]

well I just paid down half the cost of a 6 month build from 22reperformance.com. I just couldn't get past their excellent reputation and attention to detail on the build.

I went stage 2 with a CAM they have had good success with along with new injectors performance matched. When talking to the head machinist he basically sounded exactly like I was talking to JDE. He advised to not use the pro ported head from LCE and that the engineers at Toyota made that engine the way it was for longevity and all around good power. He also said the build he is making me is slightly ported and better low rpm higher torque useful power.

I also called JIS and had a Japanese lady take some info from me promising me a call back with a quote from a machinist, but they never called me back... so that made the decision for me. Jim Putney's 22reperformance.com it is; I have read testimonials from guys in stage 2s that are on 40k odo running perfect still with his motors and simply couldn't find more than 10k on any of the others before some sob story of a failed part.

I will revisit this thread in September when my motor is done to tell of my experience, I will also be taking compression, MPG and top speed in wind measurements this year to comparre and contrast.

At 223$ to ship on a $400 core charge I have decided to keep my original 22re motor when it comes out and potentially rebuild it when I have more time; I am thinking I could even sell it on ebay or something where the buyer pays shipping instead of me. - that's if it survives this summers final voyages. I figure I will try to slap 3000 miles or so on it this summer/fall.

 

 

[Totem]

heh - knew JIS sounded familiar... I used them to source a low mileage Japanese motor when my 2000 celica blew its motor in 2002. Found the receipt from them.

I will say that motor I got from them was not rebuilt but looked brand new and only had 30,000 on it or so and ran great ; I sold that car a couple years ago it had 180,000 something miles on it. so the motor went 150k more as I recall and was still running strong. That was a VVTLI TRD motor too. that motor I got free; was covered by warranty. I was given choice of source on it and that's who they had recommended at the time. (dealership in Saginaw did it if memory serves) - which is where it broke down at.

[payaso del mar]

you can probably sell your old 22RE locally....plenty of market for those.

[Totem]

Well, my putney motor is soon to be completed... 22reperformance.com let me know its in the final stages. i suppose wiping it with a diaper for the past 3 months should result in quite a nice shine.

Now I faced with a dilemma... my current motor is aside from burning some oil, just fine. I had sort of figured this years trips would kill it by now but no.

We beat on our 22re. I'm not even gonna lie, we camp it in July in MAX heat and i am a lead foot. This year the motor was actually keeping us going at 65 mph a lot of the time in the mountains even.

So what should i do? get a compression tes on old motor? wait for old to die and just put new in garage? swap out and sell old while still runs?

[WME]

Sell it, list it now and let the possible buyers hear it run and look it over in the truck. A running engine is always worth more than one sitting on a pallet under a tarp in the corner of your garage.

[Totem]

March and my motor, still not ready yet. Called them and they say they will have it in a week... and spoke with Jim. Hoping he calls me back today. Looking forward to the Stage 2 complete.

Will film a short movie of my old motor running and get compression results covered by the shop that installs.

In my mind I am thinking of keeping this motor if I cannot sell it; as a backup.