Polybutyl pipe

[toyohome]

Has anyone had problems with the now extinct Polybutyl (PB) pipe in their RVs?

Is it difficult to re-plumb with something else? What kind of pipe is most appropriate for a re-plumb? PVC? Copper?

[bufbooth]

Pvc did not work too well for me, only held for one year. I used the non glue stuff that has a clamp, believe it is call plex.

[Derek up North]

http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing-Pipes-Fittings-Valves-PEX-Pipe-Fittings/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbuty/h_d2/Navigation?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&searchNav=true

[zero]

Has anyone had problems with the now extinct Polybutyl (PB) pipe in their RVs?

Is it difficult to re-plumb with something else? What kind of pipe is most appropriate for a re-plumb? PVC? Copper?

I still have a house I plumbed with polybutylene over 25 years ago. Zero problems and my water pressure runs 30-50 PSI. I'm well aware of all the law-suits and I'm not convinced anyone knows for sure how bad or good the stuff really is. There certainly were some awful fittings sold for it that came apart.

It doesn't worry me a bit in a RV that's only running maybe 5 PSI in water pressure. I would NOT intentionally go out an buy it. Just happens I still have a couple of hundred feet of it laying around.

If I was putting new plumbing in an RV, I'd use PEX. Flexible, withstands high pressures, NO law suits (yet). Used in domestic plumbing and even in new hip joints I(instead of teflon).

Where I live (temps down to 30 below F) it's good to have plumbing in an RV that can flex a bit when frozen. Even when doing a careful winterization job - it's easy to get some trapped water in the pipe. PEX and PolyB can handle some freezes and thaws. Copper will not (at least not many).

I'm stripping an 86 Winnebago right now and it's full of some sort of flexible black plastic water pipe that is flared. Not sure what it is but not a single leak. That's pretty amazing since it sat outside for years with water trapped in the pipe. Yes - I'm sure it had some RV antifreeze in it but most sold is junk. Most of the RV antifreeze I see for sale is rated for use only if NOT diluted with water. That is pretty hard to do and kind of defeats the purpose. Full strength RV antifreeze IS available but not mainstream.

[Maineah]

If you are going to replace pex is the only way to go doesn't get any better then that. if you just need to repair shark bite fittings (big box store) or a good RV dealer for fittings for the old gray stuff.

[Maineah]

Don't know about your pump but I just installed an accumulator in my tow behind and the pump shut off at 37 PSI!

[Bob C]

When I replaced the water heater in my RV, I could not find the grey plumbing parts. I used Shark Bite connectors to hook up to the grey pipe and used PEX for all of the new plumbing. I initially had a leak at the Shark Bite connector but after re-cutting the end with a proper tubing cutter instead of a utility knife it stopped leaking.

The is a business called Mobile Home Stuff Store www.mobilehomestuffstore.com in Mauston WI that has a good supply of the old grey plumbing parts. I wish that I would have found this place before my water heater installation, it would have saved a bunch of trouble.

[Dolphinite no longer here]

_{RV antifreeze is widely available here is Western Montana, even at H. Depot and Lowe's. Its the pink stuff that's used full strength. I winterize my '85 Dolphin every year with the stuff and it works great. I installed a bypass kit on my water heater so that I only use about one and a half gallons to completely fill all the plumbing in the RV. I just open the outside tap on the fresh water tank and the water heater and let them drain but I don't fill them with antifreeze.}

_{If I was going to replace the plumbing in my Dolphin, (and I might) I'd use Pex, too.}

_John

[zero]

The Home Depot and Lowes stores I've gone to in central NY and northern Michigan only sell the "el cheapo" RV antifreeze that is only supposed to be used full strength. That makes little sense to me. Usually the reason for using antifreeze is in areas that have trapped water. Thusly, the RV antifreeze is likely to mix with that trapped water and get diluted. I've seen "winterized" RVs, and homes break pipes many times when done with the cheap RV antifreeze. We get temps down to minus 20-30F.

Same reasoning with the stores now pusing automotive antifreeze that cannot be diluted. And - it's often the same price per gallon as for the full strength (that CAN be diluted with 50% water).

The local plumbing store near me refuses to sell the cheaper so-called "50F below stuff" due to so many complaints with broken pipes.

Cheap stuff at Home Depot rated for 50 below F if NO water added for $4.99 . .
http://www.homedepot.com/p/DOW-South-Win-RV-Antifreeze-with-DOWFROST-147005/202530435#.UjdTh8Y3uek

Better stuff rated for 100 below F is no water added (can be mixed with water and still protects) for $8.99 per gallon . .

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/AFZ1/RV100/N0495.oap?ck=Search_N0495_-1_-1&pt=N0495&ppt=C0059

[Dolphinite no longer here]

_{So far ( 18 years with this Dolphin and counting) I haven't had any problems with the antifreeze being weakened with any water it might get mixed with. I think some of my success is the fact that I open all the faucets and valves, one at a time, until I get pure, pink antifreeze flowing at whatever outlet I'm at, then I shut that outlet off and move to the next one. I'd say that 99% of the water is pushed out of the plumbing by the incoming antifreeze so that any dilution of the antifreeze is negligible. Our Winter weather here is similiar to upstate New York's with temperatures often at 20 degrees below zero and occasionally at 30 below.}

_{My guess is that the failures of the $4.99 antifreeze have more to do with the RV owner's winterization techniques than the antifreeze. I do think that the $9.00 stuff is a good idea, though, particularly for those owners who are new to RVs and Winter. I grew up on a farm in Wisconsin until I went into the army where I was stationed in Central Germany for two years and then I moved to Alaska for almost thirty years. I guess some of the cold weather survival thinking is still with me here in Montana.}

_John

[zero]

The problem with the cheaper half-strength RV antifreeze is when it is just added to trapped water instead of used to completely flush out the trapped water (if possible). In an ideal world all plumbing pipes would head downhill to a drain and all traps would have drain access. In our inperfect world - some areas of some plumbing cannot be drained. Especially in RVs. So - you can pour in the full strength stuff - let it get somewhat diluted and be safe. Or - pour in the half-strength stuff and just use a lot more of it until you feel secure that most of the water has been displaced. Either way works and not sure what way ends up cheaper. Use half the amount of something that costs twice as much (sometimes) - or use twice to three times as much of something that is 1/2 the price (sometimes). And there is also the attempts to use air and blow the lines out that does not always work. To each his own.

I know that many of the broken pipes in houses "winterized" with the cheaper RV antifreeze is from the assumption it can be used like the full strength stuff. 30 years ago - the full strength RV and heating antifreeze was more mainstream. Just as auto antifreeze in full strength was the default choice just a few years ago but is now taking a back seat to this silly 50/50 stuff. I say "silly" since I often see it on shelf for the same price (and sometimes more) then the full strength stuff. Makes no sense to me. Good money maker for the sellers though. If a gallon of pure antifreeze is $8, and a gallon of 50/50 antifreeze is also $8, then with the latter purchase - the water is selling for $4 per gallon.

[Derek up North]

$4/gallon is a bargain to a hipster who likes Evian!

[Maineah]

I don't get it. This is what HD sells, Dowfrost even at at 50% it's still ratted to -30* If it is alcohol based I might worry but propylene glycol should pose no problems. That's where I got mine last year and it gets pretty dang cold up here in the mountains.

[Dolphinite no longer here]

Here's my last post to try and beat this subject into the ground...

If the antifreeze is just "poured" into an RV's system, it won't be nearly as effective as when the antifreeze is pumped through the system under presure, using the RV's fresh water pump. Using the pump gets the antifreeze into all the piping, displacing most, if not all, of the water in the lines. Blowing air into the system is pretty good but some water always remains in low spots, joints or elbows.

I installed a plastic "tee" valve just before the pump, between the water tank and the pump. Under normal use, the valve is oriented so that the pump draws water directly from the water tank. When the weather gets cold enough to warrant winterization, I turn the valve 90 degrees. This now blocks water coming from the water tank (which I drain before beginning this operation) and allows me to draw RV antifreeze direct from a one gallon jug via a two foot piece of plastic hose clamped to the "tee" and inserted into the jug. It usually takes about one and a half to two gallons of antifreeze. The amount of antifreeze used depends on how quickly I turn off whatever faucet or valve I'm standing next to after I detect pure pink stuff coming out. The one place people forget to check is the check valve at the city water inlet. You have to go outside and push something small into the check valve until pure pink antifreeze comes out. Stand to one side because you'll get sprayed. You'll get sprayed anyway...

Also pour several ounces down the shower drain to fill the "P" trap down there.

Piece 'a cake...

John

[zero]

Dow frost when sold as "-50F" is only 29% strength. Considering that RV antifreeze sold as "-100F" only protects to 0 degrees F when mixed 50/50, the -50F stuff obviously gives much less protection.

Home Depot sells South/Win with 27% Dow Frost in it. It is NOT full strength Dow Frost. Not sure I understand what it is that you don't understand.

Dow Frost in pure form (as used in a lot of heating systems) can be mixed 50/50 and protect to -30F. That is NOT what my Home Depot sells in the RV antifreeze jugs.

RV antifreeze sold as "-100F" is 59%-65% strength depending on brand.

When mixed with 25% water it protects down to -30F.
When mixed with 50% water it protects down to just 0F.
When mixed with 75% water it protects down to plus 10F.

The Home Depot store where I go sells South/Win RV antifreeze that is 27% strength. Maybe your place sells something different? If so, what is it?

[Maineah]

Looks like -50 dowfrost is 57% If you dump a gallon in and it mixes with a few oz.of water it ain't going to have much effect.http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0073/0901b80380073445.pdf?filepath=heattrans/pdfs/noreg/180-01530.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

[zero]

I'm not sure what all the confusion lies. Different brands comes with different strengths. Any RV antifreeze I've seen for sale is diluted. Just a matter of how much. If you buy it specifically for hot-water heating systems - it's more apt to be full strength.

I guess if you use enough - you can get by with any RV antifreeze if you use enough of it and don't mind shelling out bucks for a diluted product.

Same silly thing with Roundup at Home Depot (for weed control). Home Depot gets $10 for a gallon of Round Up "ready to use) that only contains 2% in the bottle. I buy glyphosphate (that's what Round UP is) in 2 1/2 gallon jugs with 40% concentration for $45. 50 times more for $45. That would be $500 if buying that diluted junk at Home Depot.

Hey, to each his(her) own. If I'm trying to protect some plumbing with trapped water, I'll opt to put as little pure water back in as I can.

[Maineah]

Oh I realize what you are saying that kind of mix is for suburban users. Most do not have the luxury of those in the pucker brush to have empty containers lying around or they are just plain lazy or don’t know it's a 50-50 mix it's just antifreeze to them. So the market is there for high profit In the case of Roundup I would not want most people running around with anything more than 2%! It’s not nice stuff. I would have to travel 50 miles one way to buy 100% polyethylene glycol so I’ll stick with the standard off the shelf stuff and do what they say, drain the water then pump it full of pink stuff until it runs out the tap. Once drained properly there can’t be more than 2 or 3 oz. of water and that’s a very low percentage of dilution to something that in its self is good to -50. My antifreeze valve is at the pump ½ gallon will fill the pump and all the lines the heater is by passed. It spits pink the tap gets turned off until springs haven’t lost any parts yet after all these years.

[5Toyota]

for my two cents worth i like to blow as much water out as i can get. then flood it with r v antifreze . a water heater bypass is the only way to go just put a little in there and bypass it. my water heater has a drain cock. open that blow a bunch of air in that also . i have not had a problem yet in 5 winters.

[zero]

In the case of Roundup I would not want most people running around with anything more than 2%! It’s not nice stuff.

On a relative scale - Round Up or generic Glyphosate is pretty mild stuff. No spray license needed and supposedly (according to Monsanto) no residual carry-over from year to year.

Bacteria breaks it down in the soil in six months. Almost qualifies as a "non toxic" liquid. Low toxicity to fish and ground animals (not sure about bees). No rats with cancer from it. I only buy in 50% jugs and have been doing so for over 30 years. I don't like using any herbicide or pesticide but when selling sweet corn - it's a necessary evil. No way can I cultivate 20 acre of crops and keep weed free here in NY. Might be possible in sandy northern Michigan. The gentically altered Roundup ready corn scares me more then the Roundup glyphosate chemical.

Now - take some Prowl, Bicep Magnum, or Atrazine - and you've got some scary stuff. I hate getting near the stuff but have to use it, now and then.

The Europeans think like you and have a lot more fear of Roundup. Who knows? Maybe they are right and Monsanto has made a huge cover-up. It would not be the first time.

[Maineah]

Just the mention of Monsanto and my level of trust disappears.

[snail powered]

Has anyone had problems with the now extinct Polybutyl (PB) pipe in their RVs?

Is it difficult to re-plumb with something else? What kind of pipe is most appropriate for a re-plumb? PVC? Copper?

Consensus is to use pex tubing (cross linked polyethylene) and that it is not difficult to re-plumb with it.

So how hard is it to do, how do you make connections and what are the connector types? Watch this:

http://youtu.be/P70I2irj6qc

so what the heck is pex? Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-linked_polyethylene

[timay]

Poly butyl pipe and Quest fittings are junk and that's just a fact. In a RV I think it is sufficient to handle the demands. What I would recommend is using the on board water system, and avoid hooking up to pressurized shore water supplies even with a regulator. If you need to make a repair, use a product called Flair It. http://www.flairit.com (available at ACE Hardware, and many good RV shops, Camping World etc). If you use Shark Bites or like products they should be specifically for Poly butyl on the end you connect to the original piping.

Replace any failing piping with Pex it's cheap, lightweight, compatible with most all Sharkbite fittings and proven to be extremely durable. A tip I would offer is if you are replacing allot of piping rent the crimp tool from Home Depot or Lowe's as they are ridiculously expensive.

[sailfritz]

_{RV antifreeze is widely available here is Western Montana, even at H. Depot and Lowe's. Its the pink stuff that's used full strength. I winterize my '85 Dolphin every year with the stuff and it works great. I installed a bypass kit on my water heater so that I only use about one and a half gallons to completely fill all the plumbing in the RV. I just open the outside tap on the fresh water tank and the water heater and let them drain but I don't fill them with antifreeze.}

_{If I was going to replace the plumbing in my Dolphin, (and I might) I'd use Pex, too.}

_John

I just bought an 85 Doplhin and would like to know how to do the bypass valve you mentioned. Thanks

[sailfritz]

Poly butyl pipe and Quest fittings are junk and that's just a fact. In a RV I think it is sufficient to handle the demands. What I would recommend is using the on board water system, and avoid hooking up to pressurized shore water supplies even with a regulator. If you need to make a repair, use a product called Flair It. http://www.flairit.com (available at ACE Hardware, and many good RV shops, Camping World etc). If you use Shark Bites or like products they should be specifically for Poly butyl on the end you connect to the original piping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmYjHD_b410

Replace any failing piping with Pex it's cheap, lightweight, compatible with most all Sharkbite fittings and proven to be extremely durable. A tip I would offer is if you are replacing allot of piping rent the crimp tool from Home Depot or Lowe's as they are ridiculously expensive.

Can you explain the "on board water system" futher?