grandview bill Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 about 3 ago a violent storm passed thru knocking out my power.In the past with other rvs , I've used the generator for backup power.I ran a cord to the outside receptacle on the rv.I wont have to do that tonight. I hear the linemen on the job out on the road power should be on shortly.Some rv generators make good stand by units for your home.About 2 yrs.ago I got tired of the outages and put an Onan genset in a permanent building Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I know a woman in the NY Adirondacks that ran her house off her Honda Accord for two weeks after a long power outage. Thats near Blue Mountain Lake in NY where long power outages are common. She bought a 3000 watt inverter, a couple of Walmart deep-cycle batteries and a set of good jumper cables. I suspect her setup was not very efficient but she was ticked off. Once the power came back on - she contacted the power company (Niagara Mohawk) and had all electricity turned off and unhooked. She slowly, but surely changed over to solar panels and a battery bank. I ran my house for a few days off a Winnebago Onan genset which worked well-enough but I had to be careful. It was an "old school" Onan that was a double-sized generator run at half speed to be quiet. Main thing was to turn off many of the breakers in the house and make sure no two large applicances came on at once. A 3/4 horse, 220 volt well pump can be a problem. Next is a 220 volt, 4500 watt hot-water heater. Lights, small microwave, TVs, refrigerator, etc. were easy. At my home at present I have several backup systems. A PTO powered 17KW generator that I can hook to any farm tractor and back-feed into a 50 amp outlet (often frowned on). Don't try to school me on the possible dangers - I'm well aware and I used to be a lineman for Public Service. My main backup now is a 48 volt DC battery bank with six large Rolls-Surette 6 volt batteries and a 10,000 watt inverter - along with 5400 watts of grid-tie solar. It's seamless. When the power goes out from grid - my house and barn power stays on. So far, I've run for three days with no grid power just off the batteries (had little to no sun). If anybody wants to try powering their home with an RV generator - better do some checking in your breaker box and figure out some protocol as to what breakers MUST be turned off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandview bill Posted August 27, 2013 Author Share Posted August 27, 2013 back feeding a panel can be dangerous if not isolated by a transfer switch,I tell my neighbors to cord connect only,but I do different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 You will be held responsible for injury or death resulting from a back feed main. Back feeding a pole big can produce voltages in excess of 10,000 volts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphinite no longer here Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 JD, You should be careful with one of your setups. You could kill power company personnel working on the line. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandview bill Posted August 27, 2013 Author Share Posted August 27, 2013 the key word is isolation,in our rvs systems its almost foolproof,with the cord only one source can be used at a time hence ,isolation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 the key word is isolation,in our rvs systems its almost foolproof,with the cord only one source can be used at a time hence ,isolation Yes but don't do what I have seen, two male ends! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandview bill Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 hey tim ... thats why I said almost foolproof....hi hi 73 Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Two male ends, plug one into the generator, plug the other end into a wall outlet to back-feed the house. For Gods sake, make sure you pull the main breaker before doing this. Its called a "Suicide Cord" for a very good reason. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Very dangerous if you fail to disconnect the main breaker prior to generator hookup. Coming from New England (where power outages occur regularly) I discussed this issue with an electric company linesmen. His response was they could send a surge of high voltage through the line effectively frying your genset. They don't have the time to knock on doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 back feeding a panel can be dangerous if not isolated by a transfer switch,I tell my neighbors to cord connect only,but I do different I'll repeat. Please don't try to school me on the possible dangers of "backfeeding." I was a lineman for 4 years for PSE&G and well aware of the issues. The reality is this. #1 if you have the main breakers turned "off" there is NO danger to the power grid. #2 if you screw up and leave the mains on - and hook a 2000-4000 watt generator into the grid - most likely it would immediatedly trip it's breaker and shut down. #3 - linemen are required to treat all wires as live - regardless of if thought to be dead. When I was doing line-work - if I got caught not wearing insulation sleeves, or gloves, or failing to stick a ground clamp on a wire to be worked on - i.e. did not treat all wires as "live" I'd be in trouble. Sanctioned, pay cut, and/or a few people got fired. Even when in a fibeglass bucket and no feet on the ground. And yeah - I've heard the claims of potential law-suits and/or legal problems. I've yet to see it happen when someone was doing it on their own property. I'm not recommending that anyone do it. But - a double-ended 50 amp cord with two male ends for a welder outlet, or a 30 amp for a dryer outlet can get someone out of a pinch if done right ("right" meaning "safely"). When it comes to RV gensets and powering homes during a outage - running the water system is usually the biggest issue. The vast majority of homes where I live in NY and MI have deep well pumps that run 220 volts with dual 15 or 20 amp lines. Many smaller generators cannot run them. If you happen to have city water fed to your home - obviously it's not an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Two male ends, plug one into the generator, plug the other end into a wall outlet to back-feed the house. For Gods sake, make sure you pull the main breaker before doing this. Its called a "Suicide Cord" for a very good reason. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto There was a guy I worked with that did just that when his power at home was out. It was cold and he had no heat. This about as dangerous as it gets there is no safe way to handle it either the generator kills you or the power co. does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 There was a guy I worked with that did just that when his power at home was out. It was cold and he had no heat. This about as dangerous as it gets there is no safe way to handle it either the generator kills you or the power co. does. You lost me on your logic. Explain how . . . the main breakers are "off", that grid power can have any effect on anything hooked to an outlet from the household wiring? Also please tell us how a generator kills someone when plugged into household wiring? Maybe the exhaust gas? If someone is do dumb that they are willing to run an internal combustion engine inside a house - no amount of "scolding" is going to save them. I supect anyone can kill themselves (or others) with just about anything. And yes - when it comes to electricity things can get complicated. To say though that a person cannot backfeed safely if he/she knows what he/she is doing - is rediculous. Take a 5000 watt portable genset. Ground it. Stick a cord into its 30 amp 220 volt outlet and also into a 30 amp dryer outlet. Make sure main breakers are "off." Now - other then an overload if too many applicances are run - tell us how that is going to kill someone. OK. If you pull the cord from the dryer outlet when hot - and the generator is still running - and you stick your tounge on the prongs - you will get zapped for sure. If you are grounded your heart is likely to go into fibrillation - a common killer when our hearts are exposed to the Hertz Cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphinite no longer here Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 jdemaris, Using a cord with two male ends is a very dangerous thing to do, your prior "lineman" experience notwithstanding. I'll bet none of those guys (linemen) would ever advocate doing something like that on a public forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Many panel boxes can be retrofitted with a physical interlock no wiring required. The main must be turned off on order to turn on the generator breaker it is cheap, simple and there is no excuse for not doing it. People make mistakes an interlock of some type cures that whether physical or electrical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 You lost me on your logic. Explain how . . . the main breakers are "off", that grid power can have any effect on anything hooked to an outlet from the household wiring? Also please tell us how a generator kills someone when plugged into household wiring? Maybe the exhaust gas? If someone is do dumb that they are willing to run an internal combustion engine inside a house - no amount of "scolding" is going to save them. I supect anyone can kill themselves (or others) with just about anything. And yes - when it comes to electricity things can get complicated. To say though that a person cannot backfeed safely if he/she knows what he/she is doing - is rediculous. Take a 5000 watt portable genset. Ground it. Stick a cord into its 30 amp 220 volt outlet and also into a 30 amp dryer outlet. Make sure main breakers are "off." Now - other then an overload if too many applicances are run - tell us how that is going to kill someone. OK. If you pull the cord from the dryer outlet when hot - and the generator is still running - and you stick your tounge on the prongs - you will get zapped for sure. If you are grounded your heart is likely to go into fibrillation - a common killer when our hearts are exposed to the Hertz Cycle. As long as the outlet is on the same leg it will power that side, main on or off if one keeps trying different outlets eventually they will find the side they need to power a furnace. If some one is dumb enough to install a male plug on both end either one could be charged depending where the power comes from, nice copper prongs sticking out ready to bite you with out a hint of insulation. Turn the generator off and unplug it now the power comes back on the wingnut picks up the plug and is killed by line power same thing in reverse unplug from the wall and you have a hot generator end. The NEC is full of what if's because people do dumb things including not having interlocks on their mains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 One of the reasons for the forum is to share the information with others. Education, and I believe anyone who is following this thread can see why this is very dangerous, and "Don't try this at home" should be applied.The danger can be mitigated by turning off the main breaker. But Humans are human, and someone could potentially turn the Main back on with the generator still connected, They make official certified installation kits that prevent this from happening.The potential for lethal (as in death) isn't in your house, its the outside world that you have no control over,When you backfeed power, your doing exactly that, You are supplying power to the world. If the main is on, your supplying power to the pole and down the road to your neighbors (if they are on the same circuit) but more importantly, your putting voltage on a line where there should be none, and a Lineman may be working on. Trust me, This is going to ruin his entire day, and yours, when they find out where the voltage is coming from.I'd be willing to put money on a wager that the power cables will be removed from your house (yes, they will cut the wires and remove them), and will not be reconnected until a full blow inspection is performed by the Utility, your building inspection department, and perhaps the Utility commission investigators. Odds are also very good that criminal and civil charges will be brought up, as in every state that I can think oif, its illegial to backfeed a power line without a certified instillation. So, there you have it.On a side note, odds are very good that no damage will come to your generator if power did come back on with it connected to the line. The 60 cycle voltage coming down the line will win, and will instantly (within 3 or 4 cycles, about 100 milliseconds) cause your generator to syncronize with the pole power. If your gen just happened to be 180 degrees out of phase, this will put a big load on your genny as it does a quick speedup/slowdown in the attempt to sync.JOhn Mc 88 Dol,phin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandview bill Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 to jd technically youre' right but did you notice how many times you used the word 'if',the public isnt aware of these issues and we constantly have to legislate to protect them from themselves.I would allways advocate a proper generator installation.But I would think in reality the chances of a lineman getting killed are remote.Most people dont understand your house is in paralell with all your neighbors homes and all the appliances they left on.Way too much load for a liitle portable gen ,the breaker will trip.Also the lineman is aware of all this and takes precautions.Having said all this,ther was a case where a lineman was killed in Minnesota about 8 yrs.ago the news specifically said someone was using an improperly connected generator.So I back automatic isolation,installed according to the NEC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob C Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I am going to be installing a generator switch in my house breaker box. I will spend the $300 to get the box and get everything installed to code. It is not hard to do and everything works as it should. I will be running off of a 6750 watt generator and will be able to run my freezer, refrigerator, some lights, entertainment system and still have a surplus of power. We heat with wood and only run two fans to distribute the heat so that is a minimal power draw also. I will admit that I would never want my generator next to me in a campground, it is crazy loud but for my household backup it will do just fine. I bought it about 7 years after Y2K from a guy that expected the worst but got tired of the generator sitting in his garage. I only paid $200 and the paint was not burned off of the muffler yet. I keep 10-2 1/2 gallon gas cans full in the garage and label the cans with the date. I use the oldest first when I run my lawn mower, wood splitter, or ATV. If the gas sits there for to long, it goes in my truck or RV and I get new gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 jdemaris, Using a cord with two male ends is a very dangerous thing to do, your prior "lineman" experience notwithstanding. I'll bet none of those guys (linemen) would ever advocate doing something like that on a public forum. I can't speak for others. I have never recommended it to anyone since I have no control over what someone else's capabilities are. That being said - it can certainly be done in a safe way. To say a double-male-ended is a "suicide" cord is a little over the top. And yes -the safety interlock transfer switches are far better and far safer IF someone happens to already have one wired in their home. What about when they do not and they have no water and are in risk of freezing to death? Or worse yet - gassing themselves. In my area - most deaths during power outages are from CO poisoning when people get desperate trying to get warm. Seems that most times when we have power outages they are in the dead of winter during ice-storms. There was a one-week power outage in my area around 15 years ago. Happened in the middle of the winter and it was dropping to 20 below zero F at night. I helped out several of the old folks in the neighborhood with my farm tractor and a 17KW PTO generator hooked behind me on a trailer. I went around - using a back-feed hookup to get their water going and heat on for awhile. I only did it with people I knew and just a few select elderly people that needed the help badly. Most were using kerosene unvented heaters but getting their central heat on for a half hour helped a lot. So did getting their water on so they could fill the bathtub with reserve water. I never left any power hooked to anyone unattended. Back-feeding was the only way to temporarily tap into a household electric system to run a 220 volt water pump - unless I wanted to start doing a bunch of rewiring. In a perfect world , everybody would look ahead and be prepared with back-up wood stoves. properly wired stand-by generators, etc. I also think that anyone with a dairy farm and 50 to 100 cows ought to be required by law - to have backup power. Ever seen what happens to a big Holstein when she doesn't get milked in time? Ever tried to milk one out by hand? Heck even the Amish farmers around here have diesel-powered vacuum pumps to milk their cows. Again - I am not recommending anything. But - let's stick to reality here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandview bill Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 good deal...we alaways wondered where all those Y2K generators were... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I keep 10-2 1/2 gallon gas cans full in the garage and label the cans with the date. I use the oldest first when I run my lawn mower, wood splitter, or ATV. If the gas sits there for to long, it goes in my truck or RV and I get new gas. I do the same at my cabin in the Adirondacks. We have a 1960 gas driven generator with a four-cylinder water-cooled Continental gas engine. 17 KW output. We keep six, 5 gallon cans of gasoline there and rotate them once a year. We dump the old gas in our van or car - and refill the cans. Never had any issues with bad gas but I DO use Stabil. By the way. I've got a 1979 Datsun 280ZX that I took off the road when my last child was born 9 years ago. It sat for 7 years with the original tank of gasoline in it. I thought for sure that gas would of turned to varnish. I wanted to drain it but I could not fish a siphon down the filler neck. When that tank of gas hit the 7 year mark - I stuck a battery in the car and it fired right up! I was amazed. I'm not sure if I should credit Stabil or the weird German half-pulse fuel injection systems (Jet-Tronic). After it ran and I figured it was NOT yet a lost cause - I jacked the Z up in air and removed the tank filler neck. I then drained it and that gas was dark brown and looked something awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandview bill Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 some info....that 'suicde plug',if you plug into the load first,then the source and UNPLUG the source first then UNPLUG the load its safer in theory because the hot plug blades arent'exposed,who's going to remember that?........also the NEC does not require grounding of a PORTABLE GENERATOR .grounding in fact is dangerous,this caused so much confusion the the NEC had to issue a clarication.In this case grounding a portable generator creates the ground path for electric shock.Generators connected to premise wiring MUST be grounded to system ground.......a strange code prohibition is the use of an electric vehical as a power source for your home...exceptions apply....I cant give code referances ....I tossed all my code books out when I surrendered my Masters ....Minnesota wanted so much money to renew.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 some info....that 'suicde plug',if you plug into the load first,then the source and UNPLUG the source first then UNPLUG the load its safer in theory because the hot plug blades arent'exposed,who's going to remember that?........also the NEC does not require grounding of a PORTABLE GENERATOR .grounding in fact is dangerous,this caused so much confusion the the NEC had to issue a clarication.In this case grounding a portable generator creates the ground path for electric shock.Generators connected to premise wiring MUST be grounded to system ground.......a strange code prohibition is the use of an electric vehical as a power source for your home...exceptions apply....I cant give code referances ....I tossed all my code books out when I surrendered my Masters ....Minnesota wanted so much money to renew.... I don't care one way or the other what the latest code book says, or what version any particular state is using right now. NEC is a recommendation and not a law book. They have some great recommendations and few poor ones. If a portable generator is sitting on the ground (as in the "earth) with enough debris to insulate it, and it is running, and it develops a short between a hot-leg and chassis ground - it has the potential to have a "hot frame." If a person who's feet are making better contact with the earth then the genset touches said genset - he/she could get one heck of a wallop, voltage and cycle-wise. Grounding that genset frame is cheap insurance against that. It has no connection to the home's ground system unless a ground cordset is plugged into it - or wired into it. Some NEC codes do not fit well into all situations. When I worked for the power company -just about all the deaths I heard about - in-house - were from low voltage 120 due to the Hertz Cycle. I got hit with a 13,000 volt line and got my arm badly burned. My heart though -was fine. The last death I was close to and aware of - was a white-shirt wearing engineer who came to inspect a job working on some underground wiring. The work pit had a wire-fence around it for safety. It somehow got energized and when he touched it - his heart rhythm went haywire. He died shortly after. If that fence had a ground-clamp stuck to it -it would not of happened. That was back in 1972. I doubt they even use metal safety fences anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandview bill Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 your wrong...many states adopt NEC as law its written to be terse...that is in legally binding language..if you choose to ignore it thats your business.It it is basically written by the insurance industry as a MINIMUM of standards. on the grounding youre also wrongI dont care if it hot frame and I touch it .....if its not grounded there is no return path no complete circiut,no second wire ..your ground adds this ...when young electricians work on wiring at the vo-techs the school uses ungrounded systems,they require special state permits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I cannot think of any state that does not adopt NEC as their building and inspection standards. And the term Suicide cord is also an industry name given to that piece of wire with make plugs on both ends. Bob's method is the safest, a certified installation that drops out automatically.. $300 is a good price. Another alternative (I'm thinking of doing this) is to simply wire three or four "orange" outlets, that don't connect to the main panel, they just connect to each other. One outlet outside, one near the furnace, one near the frig and one near the living room. If I loose power, I use my suicide cord to plug the generator into the outlet thats outside, this then feeds the other outlets inside. I can plug the furnace into its orange outlet, I can plug the Frig into its orange outlet, and the TV and lights into their orange outlet. Don't have to worry about backfeed or switching the main breaker. JOhnh Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I cannot think of any state that does not adopt NEC as their building and inspection standards. Not "thinking it" does not make it fact. As I already alluded to - electric code use and versions vary by state and also can vary by city within a state. It has little to do with building codes. Connecticut and Washington DC for example are still using a large portion of the 2005 vintage NEC with their own tweaks. Florida and New York are using 2008. Massachusetts, Maine, et. al. are using 2011 NEC. States e.g. Arizona, Kansas, Mississippi, Maryland, Nevada, etc. do not use an official version of any NEC code statewide. Several other states have hybrid codes with bits and pieces of NEC added to their own written regs - e.g. Utah, Vermont. In the state of New York - New York City has it's own code and not the NEC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandview bill Posted August 29, 2013 Author Share Posted August 29, 2013 I like that idea of a dedicated emergency circuit.Especially with the use of the orange receptacles....wished I would have thought of it...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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