Converter selection switching

[snail powered]

I am hoping to buy a new converter for my rig in the next month or so. The one in it works but since I am redoing the cabinets this summer and it is 30+ years old I don't want to end up having to redo the cabinet in another year or so should it decide to fail.

One thing that annoyed me last year was entering the coach after dark with no lights on and having to walk all the way to the back of the rig and try and find the switch way down by the floor in the dark. It is located in the base of the rear dinette seat. Yeah sure a flashlight by the door works but it would be nicer to have a switch near the entry door. Plus my back and knees are exactly not bending friendly so it is also a matter of being user friendly.

Is there a cost effective solution for installing a switch by the door to turn on and off the converter power without having to relocate the converter? Or is there an option for a remote controller on converters?

I would appreciate some opinions on reliable brands that are easy to install and compact in size with smart charging function.

[waiter]

This must be something with older style Toyhouses, or you model, or a previous owner modified your system...

MIne has no switch, When your plugged into shore power the converter is ON and charges the battery and supplies 12 volt power. When your not plugged into shore power, your running off the battery.

I think Toy4CYL is talking about this on another thread?

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Maineah]

If you are turning it off to avoid over charging the batteries now is the time to replace it with a modern one and leave it on. Even with the older ones it should either run on the battery or the converter if it doesn't there is some thing wrong with it. I believe some really old ones had a battery/charger switch if that is the case a modern charger/converter one will not need it.

[zero]

I am hoping to buy a new converter for my rig in the next month or so. The one in it works but since I am redoing the cabinets this summer and it is 30+ years old I don't want to end up having to redo the cabinet in another year or so should it decide to fail.

One thing that annoyed me last year was entering the coach after dark with no lights on and having to walk all the way to the back of the rig and try and find the switch way down by the floor in the dark. It is located in the base of the rear dinette seat. Yeah sure a flashlight by the door works but it would be nicer to have a switch near the entry door. Plus my back and knees are exactly not bending friendly so it is also a matter of being user friendly.

Is there a cost effective solution for installing a switch by the door to turn on and off the converter power without having to relocate the converter? Or is there an option for a remote controller on converters?

I would appreciate some opinions on reliable brands that are easy to install and compact in size with smart charging function.

The older converters often have a two or three position rocker-switch. The two position model has one way for running off the batteries and the other for running off the AC to DC converter. The three position switchs have an added "off" position. That switch carries all the amps that run through it and cannot be remote mounted. The size of the wire needed to do so makes it too difficult (voltage drop). The easiest way to have a remote switch is to do so with a relay mounted next to the converter. Then you can run a remote switch a virtually any distance in an RV. Probably $20 in parts needed.

[snail powered]

The older converters often have a two or three position rocker-switch. The two position model has one way for running off the batteries and the other for running off the AC to DC converter. The three position switchs have an added "off" position. That switch carries all the amps that run through it and cannot be remote mounted. The size of the wire needed to do so makes it too difficult (voltage drop). The easiest way to have a remote switch is to do so with a relay mounted next to the converter. Then you can run a remote switch a virtually any distance in an RV. Probably $20 in parts needed.

Thanks, that is very usefull information.

[snail powered]

This must be something with older style Toyhouses, or you model, or a previous owner modified your system...

MIne has no switch, When your plugged into shore power the converter is ON and charges the battery and supplies 12 volt power. When your not plugged into shore power, your running off the battery.

I think Toy4CYL is talking about this on another thread?

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

Mine has a 3 position switch on it, off, 12v and 110

[zero]

Mine has a 3 position switch on it, off, 12v and 110

I don't know what RV model you have or what converter model. I've got a stack of Baslers and Power Dynamics here - all with the rocker switches. Late 70s to mid-80s versions. The nice thing about the older converters is their simplicity. About the only electronic components that fail are the rectifiers. Easy and cheap to upgrade (less then $10). Not very good for battery charging though. The downside to the newer stuff though is the complexity. Often when something fails, there is no cost-effective fix unless you happen to be an electronics tech and do the work yourself. I prefer using the old converters and add in a modern charger as a separate unit.

On older RVs, it can be temping to upgrade to all the newest tech eg. converter-charger the three-step charging, "smart" voltage sensing battery isolator, etc. They work nice when they work but can be miserable to get diagnosed and/or fixed when there's a problem.

[Maineah]

Older chargers boiled the water out of the battery were electrically noisy had very poor voltage regulation had an abysmal charge rate weighted 4X as much as a modern one but other then that they did sort of work.

[zero]

Older chargers boiled the water out of the battery were electrically noisy had very poor voltage regulation had an abysmal charge rate weighted 4X as much as a modern one but other then that they did sort of work.

Combo converter/chargers yes. Converters - often not. Not the ones I've got laying around here. Can't say what Karin has. Many of the older 15 amp Basler converters like used in Toyota Chinooks and Gazelles have either no battery charge function at all - or a 1 amp trickle charger. They're not going to boil anything. Same with the 8 amp Power Dynamics I've got. They were made strictly to power appliances and not charge batteries. With the Basler - when you flip the switch into "converter" mode - the batteries are totally disconnected from the system and the DC appliances are powered by the AC to DC converter. When flipped to "battery" mode - the appliances run off the battery with no help from the converter since it's technically off.

[zero]

Here's a typical wiring schematic for a late 70s early 80s Basler converter in a Toyota.

[snail powered]

What I wanted to know was could I have a remote mounted switch and JDemaris answered that question by saying I would need to install a relay.

The second question I asked was what brand do you recommend? I am thinking 45 watts for faster recharging times? A smart charger that desulfates. Eventually I will also add solar to my motorhome.

I suppose I could keep the old unit which does not have a built in battery charger but I don't know how much electrical capacity it has for running a small electric heater plus a small power tool or a 110 fridge and a computer at the same time as well as some 110 lighting. I would much prefer to have more than a single 110 circuit. . If I am running a small CNC machine with computer attached and a small electric heater I don't want to interupt the CNC process due to a circuit overload.

[WME]

I think you are discusing 2 different problems. Maybe what your looking for is something like this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROGRESSIVE-DYNAMICS-45-AMP-RV-POWER-CONVERTER-CHARGER-WITH-AC-DC-PANEL-PD4045-/150967364733?pt=Motors_RV_Trailer_Camper_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23265b2c7d&vxp=mtr#ht_1071wt_732

[snail powered]

I think you are discusing 2 different problems. Maybe what your looking for is something like this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROGRESSIVE-DYNAMICS-45-AMP-RV-POWER-CONVERTER-CHARGER-WITH-AC-DC-PANEL-PD4045-/150967364733?pt=Motors_RV_Trailer_Camper_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23265b2c7d&vxp=mtr#ht_1071wt_732

That unit does seem to have the necessary functions. But it makes me question the reliability of those units that he has sold 26 remanufactured ones of the same type. Guess I will have to hit the reviews to find out about customer satisfaction with it.

[Vanman]

I got this one:

http://www.bestconverter.com/PD4635-35-Amp-Converter-Upgrade-Section_p_350.html

I got the charge wizard so I can see and change the voltage output. The page shows a "remote pendant" as an option, might be what you'r looking for. On my 91 Dolphin both the converter and in/out ckt board were a srtaight up swap, really like the new ckt board.

[zero]

What I wanted to know was could I have a remote mounted switch and JDemaris answered that question by saying I would need to install a relay.

The second question I asked was what brand do you recommend? I am thinking 45 watts for faster recharging times? A smart charger that desulfates. Eventually I will also add solar to my motorhome.

I suppose I could keep the old unit which does not have a built in battery charger but I don't know how much electrical capacity it has for running a small electric heater plus a small power tool or a 110 fridge and a computer at the same time as well as some 110 lighting. I would much prefer to have more than a single 110 circuit. . If I am running a small CNC machine with computer attached and a small electric heater I don't want to interupt the CNC process due to a circuit overload.

The older and smaller converters that I mentioned have very little DC power capability and also very low AC "pass through" capability. If the RV has a DC-mode absorbtion refrigerator - it often had to be direct wired to the batteries and not to the converter. AC pass-through is often only 15 amps. Big stuff like air conditioning units or electric heaters need their own stand-alone cirucits.

You expressed a need for more AC and that can be kept separate for larger appliances if wanted. There is no "rule" that says an RV must have a complicated "power center" that handles all power needs. It DOES make things somewhat consumer "fool-proof" though when all works correctly. An RV can be wired with the AC and DC separated and also with the addition of a large DC to AC inverter so there are two separate AC systems.

It seems what you want (maybe) is not a better converter. You want a power-center that incorporates a converter, charger, and AC system all in one box.

Like a Power Dynamics PD4045. It provides up to 45 amps of DC power, three-stage battery charging, and 30 amps of AC power with room for 7 separate AC circuits. It does it all but . . . if it breaks while on the road an easy fix is unlikely. It makes things very simple when working and very complicated when it stops working. Seems to be a well built unit though with a good rep. I've installed a few but do not own one myself.

http://www.progressivedyn.com/all_in_one_pd4000.html

[Maineah]

Here's a typical wiring schematic for a late 70s early 80s Basler converter in a Toyota.

That has a charge circuit.

[zero]

That has a charge circuit.

Not sure what "that" is? That schematic shows the the wiring for the model with no battery charger - and with the "CK" 1 amp trickle charger . . as I already mentioned.

[Maineah]

What I wanted to know was could I have a remote mounted switch and JDemaris answered that question by saying I would need to install a relay.

The second question I asked was what brand do you recommend? I am thinking 45 watts for faster recharging times? A smart charger that desulfates. Eventually I will also add solar to my motorhome.

I suppose I could keep the old unit which does not have a built in battery charger but I don't know how much electrical capacity it has for running a small electric heater plus a small power tool or a 110 fridge and a computer at the same time as well as some 110 lighting. I would much prefer to have more than a single 110 circuit. . If I am running a small CNC machine with computer attached and a small electric heater I don't want to interupt the CNC process due to a circuit overload.

What size power cord does your MH have? Does it have a rather large plug that with out an adapter will not plug into a normal outlet? If it does it is a 30 system, The outlet breaker will be 15 amp (#14 wire) it may or may not have a 20 amp breaker for the A/C option. The breaker box will except tandem breakers or singles so in essence you can have two 15 amp (3600 watts) circuits to power all of your stuff.

[Maineah]

Not sure what "that" is? That schematic shows the the wiring for the model with no battery charger - and with the "CK" 1 amp trickle charger . . as I already mentioned.

shows both very crude charging system.

[zero]

shows both very crude charging system.

"Both" as in two different versions. And yeah, by modern standards it can be called "crude" or "simple." Just depends if you wish to attach a negative or positive connotation to the term. Does the job it was intended for. Sometimes "crude"

is good. Makes things simple to diagnose and repair when needed. All depends what a person wants or needs.

Units like the Basler 15 amp model were made to convert AC to DC and make enough power to run some lights, water pump, and propane furance.

By today's standards - Toyota trucks built in the 70s-80s are "crude." Does that mean we should no longer use them?

[waiter]

Karin, use caution if you purchase any of the converters i.e. One of the links is for an upgrade and will work if your upgrading your existing Converter (I don't think you have the model that they refer to, check to make sure its compatible with your existing converter.

It sounds like you may be in need of a new modern converter. The link JD provided should do an excellent job. That converter would eliminate the need for your "switch". It would also provide the intelligent 3 stage battery charging that you've seen us talk about. The 45 amp converter should be able to supply all your needs.

PD4045

Installing this converter will require some technical knowledge, i.e. rewiring the 12 volt battery and distribution, and also the 110 volt shore power and circuit breakers. I noted in the web site that the converter does not come with circuit breakers, (small additional expense. Good luck with it.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Maineah]

"Both" as in two different versions. And yeah, by modern standards it can be called "crude" or "simple." Just depends if you wish to attach a negative or positive connotation to the term. Does the job it was intended for. Sometimes "crude"

is good. Makes things simple to diagnose and repair when needed. All depends what a person wants or needs.

Units like the Basler 15 amp model were made to convert AC to DC and make enough power to run some lights, water pump, and propane furance.

By today's standards - Toyota trucks built in the 70s-80s are "crude." Does that mean we should no longer use them?

It has no regulations other than a resistor it will boil the water out of the battery if left on charge. If the original one went toes up I doubt any one would source a new old stock charger just because it was what was in it new any more then they would look for rayon tires..

[zero]

It has no regulations other than a resistor it will boil the water out of the battery if left on charge. If the original one went toes up I doubt any one would source a new old stock charger just because it was what was in it new any more then they would look for rayon tires..

Oh come on! Now you're practicing sophistry and hyperbole. You're not going to boil a 75 lb., 120 amp-hour battery with a 1 amp charger when using the RV and that's all it was intended for. It was never intended as a battery all-the-time maintainer. If you left that battery hooked to 1 amp @ 14 volts, all the time, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year - then it would lose electrolyte more quickly then it ought to. It certainly cannot boil a battery of that size with 1 amp.. I've had a 20 watt solar panel wired to my snow plow truck for 8 years now. NO regulation other then movements of the sun. It makes over an 1 amp quite often.

Either you just want to argue for argument sake - or maybe you are confusing these little 15 amp units with their bigger brothers. There used to be many "park" converters around. They were intended to be on all the time with the mentality that trailer or camper parks had grid power. Some of those had crude 5-30 amp battery chargers and some of those DID cook batteries. In the 70s-80s, Basler made a PCM08 (8 amps), a PCM15 (15 amps), a PC25 (25 amps), a PC35 (35 amps) and a PC50 (50 amps). ONLY the PC series was meant to have the charger on all the time and not the PCM models. The PC50, 50 amp converter/charger could charge the house battery at a max of 6 amps and when charged - maintained a battery at 500 milliamps.

In regard to someone intentionally seeking a perhaps new-old-stock converter instead of a newer one? It wouldn't bother me a bit if it was cheap. But with similar prices - I'd want the newer one. I've never made any comments about "older is better" if replacing a converter. What I HAVE mentioned is how easy and cheap they are to fix. Often a $10 upgrade to better rectifiers is an easy fix. "Better" is a relative value judgment that is meaningless without context.

There are also RV enthusiasts that like to restore their rigs and keep as original as possible. I kind of like the Basler units because Basler INVENTED the RV unitized converter in 1971. US patent # 3,717,805. By 1978 - with the ones I've mentioned - they were super-high-tech for time and today are still useful. Perhaps not for people like you. For me - it serves the purpose.

[snail powered]

Karin, use caution if you purchase any of the converters i.e. One of the links is for an upgrade and will work if your upgrading your existing Converter (I don't think you have the model that they refer to, check to make sure its compatible with your existing converter.

It sounds like you may be in need of a new modern converter. The link JD provided should do an excellent job. That converter would eliminate the need for your "switch". It would also provide the intelligent 3 stage battery charging that you've seen us talk about. The 45 amp converter should be able to supply all your needs.

PD4045

Installing this converter will require some technical knowledge, i.e. rewiring the 12 volt battery and distribution, and also the 110 volt shore power and circuit breakers. I noted in the web site that the converter does not come with circuit breakers, (small additional expense. Good luck with it.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

Why would I need to rewire the battery and distribution if the lines are already there to the old coverter and my new converter is in the same position? I suppose it does make sense to verify that the wires are of sufficient size to handle the loads. There are charts for that, easy enough to do.

From what I have seen on the youtube videos I have watched on how to replace converters one basically transfers things over one by one to the correct positions on the new converter.

I am very methodical and organized about doing that kind of work. I always tag all my electrical lines with labels before I start transfering things and when it is a more complicated project I take detailed photos with a digital camera before I start.

[waiter]

Karin,

Sounds like you'll do just fine if you make the decision to replace, repair, or modify.

Take some photos and keep us informed. I'm curious as to what is going to be involved if you make a decision to replace the converter with an upgraded power-supply or an entire converter.

I think someone else (Toy4CYL) was asking similar questions on another thread. i.e. Three position switch on his converter and he was having power problems. From the sounds of it JD is a lot more familiar with these converters style than I am.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Maineah]

The old style converter/chargers were not capable of charging the battery and providing power at the same time in your case it had a switch the ones a bit newer had a relay inside of the charger to disconnect the battery. The charger/converter had two circuits one that charged the battery the other provided power for the light etc.When it was plugged in the battery was disconnected from the coach during the time the system was plugged in and it charged the battery out of the system. The charge rate was around 3 amps the power for the coach was in the 10-30 amp range. The new converter/chargers are capable of doing both at the same time they are connected directly to the battery and the coach so in order to make this all work the change over system has to be defeated as it is no longer needed. Today's demands on the converter/charger have changed a lot, years ago we just needed lights and maybe the pump but now TV's, laptops, fans, radio's etc.this puts a greater demand on the battery it did not matter years back the demand on the battery was not there now we need the faster recharge time because the draw down is greater 3 amps opposed to 35-45 amps that is now pretty much standard. The new system are about as simple as it gets as far as wiring but there are things that need to be done to the wring to make it compatible with the old stuff.

[waiter]

The new system are about as simple as it gets as far as wiring but there are things that need to be done to the wring to make it compatible with the old stuff.

Exactly. If Karin documents this, it will make it a lot easier for the next person who come across this project.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Maineah]

There you go Karin we'll help!

[snail powered]

There you go Karin we'll help!

I have not made any decisions on this yet but will keep you posted on what I decide to do. I will also get my boyfriend and a couple of other guys who do marine electrical stuff to consult on it since they can see it hands on.

My motorhome project is going slower than I like as I have been sick for a while this spring. The weather is finally getting warm enough and I am feeling better but now a part time freelance internet research job has come up. Should be fun though as I will be working for friends and it is for a new, portable solar power product which could be taken along in a motorhome. Can't say any more about it than that as it is alway non disclosure stuff when working for designers. Some of the same team that did the design for the smart controllers that Onan uses for its generators in motorhomes. I will be looking for patent conflicts, materials and such, always a learning experience for sure.

[snail powered]

"Both" as in two different versions. And yeah, by modern standards it can be called "crude" or "simple." Just depends if you wish to attach a negative or positive connotation to the term. Does the job it was intended for. Sometimes "crude"

is good. Makes things simple to diagnose and repair when needed. All depends what a person wants or needs.

Units like the Basler 15 amp model were made to convert AC to DC and make enough power to run some lights, water pump, and propane furance.

By today's standards - Toyota trucks built in the 70s-80s are "crude." Does that mean we should no longer use them?

I was able to take a photo of the front panel of my existing converter today. It is a discontinued model and no parts are available for it. But as it does have an empty circuit breaker slot available if I can find a breaker to fit it I can probably do OK with it. Just has a tiny trickle charger hooked to it, no built in charger.

30 amp converter with 20 amp output. No built in batter charger. Progressive Dyanimics model PD721Q04FT. 110 circuit breaker wiring is rated for 14-6 copper.

I did go to Progessive Dynamics website and pull up the pdfs for the older models showing all the diagrams and specs for troubleshooting the electrical. But as mine is working just fine I don't need to trouble shoot it.

Looks like my options are try and locate a circuit breaker to fit it or replace it with a newer unit. If I can find a circuit breaker it would see me through for a while. But it seems like an upgrade will be needed as I can't find a breaker for it online even on Ebay.

[WME]

Some more random usless thoughts......

My AC panel was the same. I installed a 30 amp main breaker feeding a 15 and 20 amp breaker, yes thats more than 30 amps but the main protects that. The 15 amp went to the house and the 20 went to the A/C and the microwave. You could do the house with the 15 amp and use the 20 amp for Job stuff

With no ac charger it would be simple to to just get a K-mart 12v charger plug it into the house side and use it to keep the battery up. By hooking the charger to the AC before the converter you would be charging the battery any time you were plugged in no matter what position the 12v dc power switch was in.

[snail powered]

Some more random usless thoughts......

My AC panel was the same. I installed a 30 amp main breaker feeding a 15 and 20 amp breaker, yes thats more than 30 amps but the main protects that. The 15 amp went to the house and the 20 went to the A/C and the microwave. You could do the house with the 15 amp and use the 20 amp for Job stuff

With no ac charger it would be simple to to just get a K-mart 12v charger plug it into the house side and use it to keep the battery up. By hooking the charger to the AC before the converter you would be charging the battery any time you were plugged in no matter what position the 12v dc power switch was in.

Thanks, I will take a look at that option if I can find breakers for it.

[waiter]

Karin;

These should be standard household panel breakers. I would say from looking, its probably a Square D type "Q", b Square D is an industry standard, Siemans breakers should also work in your panel get the type QP or QD,

Next time your in Home Depot, swing by the electrical dept, you should be able to pick them up for less than $10. If you can take your original breaker with you to make sure, that would remove doubt, but I'm 99% sure that's what you have.

When I upgraded mine I put in a couple doubles and separated the circuits. (It had all the outlets on one breaker)

To remove the breaker, pull or pry lightly on the opposite end where the terminal screw is, it will pivot and swing out. (make sure power is off)

Attached photos are mine, your circuit breaker setup may be similar

Left = Original wiring note the 30amp shore connects directly to the circuit breaker back plane
Center = modified the shore power feed wire so it feeds thru the 30 amp breaker, the breaker then feeds the back plane
Right , split the 110 volt circuits so each circuit is on its own breaker.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Maineah]

I have done one actually two that were like yours both of them had broken frames from the unsupported heavy converter that is behind and had to be welded. The converter is behind and part of the front it will come apart and the old stuff can be removed saving the breakers and fuse panel. The worst part, the entire thing has to come out 120 volt wiring and 12 volt but it will give you a nice system when it's all done. A MH/camper is treated as a sub panel so the 120 volt wiring is different than what one might find in a house so be sure whoever is helping understands that I believe boats are wired the same because they would be a sub panel if they have 120 volt systems. Breakers are available for your panel you'll just need to take the old one with you to the big box store. As WME said a main would be nice it is just extra protection against faulty camp ground wiring. Your power cord will dictate how much power your system can handle if it is the standard cable it will have a big plug that will not plug into anything other than a 30 amp circuit if it does not then you’ll have to know the wire size or replace the power cord with a 30 amp one.

[snail powered]

Karin;

These should be standard household panel breakers. I would say from looking, its probably a Square D type "Q", b Square D is an industry standard, Siemans breakers should also work in your panel get the type QP or QD,

Next time your in Home Depot, swing by the electrical dept, you should be able to pick them up for less than $10. If you can take your original breaker with you to make sure, that would remove doubt, but I'm 99% sure that's what you have.

When I upgraded mine I put in a couple doubles and separated the circuits. (It had all the outlets on one breaker)

To remove the breaker, pull or pry lightly on the opposite end where the terminal screw is, it will pivot and swing out. (make sure power is off)

Attached photos are mine, your circuit breaker setup may be similar

Left = Original wiring note the 30amp shore connects directly to the circuit breaker back plane

Center = modified the shore power feed wire so it feeds thru the 30 amp breaker, the breaker then feeds the back plane

Right , split the 110 volt circuits so each circuit is on its own breaker.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

Converter13_Small.jpgConverter11_Small.jpgConverter10_Small.jpg

John, Thanks the photos they are a big help, I can manage it from those.

Maineah, thanks to you too. It is good to know about the potential for fracturing of the frame. If I decide to keep it I will make an L shaped support bracket for the back of the converter that takes the weight load down to the floor.

We have a great, small electrical supply shop in the neighborhood that has all kinds of breakers in stock. They are sure to have a match. A lot closer to shop than the big box stores and I try to keep that kind of local small place in business whenever possible. Electrical is all they do so they really know their stock. The Ballard neighborhood of Seattle is a terrific place to live, part industrial with lots of marine related businesses but nice residential areas with terrific restuarants, coffee shops, bakeries plus beautiful waterfront parks and miles of bike trails and of course the marinas too. Even allows boondocking in the industrial areas along the ship canal. Summer sees a lot of full time residential Toy homes parked on the streets that belong to guys working in the shipyards.