Starting my wiring project

[Maineah]

The neutral wiring is not grounded in a MH's 120 volt wiring anywhere. In the case of a MH having lots of wood and fiberglass it is a lot easier to run two wires to lighting, fridges, furnaces etc. then it is to go looking for a frame ground. You can buy romex type of wire with two wires together in various gauges designed for low voltage work if you can't find it at an auto parts store go to the boat yard and tie them to a common ground lug back at your converter box on the 12 volt side of the box it’s a far better ground. All though the 12 volt and the 120 volt shire a frame ground there should be no connections of different voltages in the same area in your converter box.

[MontanaChinook]

Thanks. And WME, yes, I was beginning to think that myself. Large wire is ok, as long as I pair it with a small enough fuse that the fuse will blow before the appliance. The way I was reading what he said was that fuse is determined by wire size alone. Wire size by amp draw. Assuming i picked my wire size correctly. So if I was stuck with a big fuse, after not correctly matching my wire size to the appliance it was powering, I was out of luck...but if I can stick with the thick wire, but use a small fuse, that's great.

Yeah I guess when I posted my model number I said I thought it was 4045, not that it definitely was.

It is definitely 4045. I found the topic I linked when I googled pd 4045, so as far as I know they're discussing my exact converter. Or at least it started that way...I don't know if everyone responding in the thread has that exact one. Either way I will be looking at it more closely this weekend!

[zero]

Thanks. And WME, yes, I was beginning to think that myself. Large wire is ok, as long as I pair it with a small enough fuse that the fuse will blow before the appliance. The way I was reading what he said was that fuse is determined by wire size alone. Wire size by amp draw. Assuming i picked my wire size correctly. So if I was stuck with a big fuse, after not correctly matching my wire size to the appliance it was powering, I was out of luck...but if I can stick with the thick wire, but use a small fuse, that's great.

Yeah I guess when I posted my model number I said I thought it was 4045, not that it definitely was.

It is definitely 4045. I found the topic I linked when I googled pd 4045, so as far as I know they're discussing my exact converter. Or at least it started that way...I don't know if everyone responding in the thread has that exact one. Either way I will be looking at it more closely this weekend!

I attempted to cut back on some excess wording since you said what I was stating was too complicated. Wire size determines the MAXIMUM fuse size allowed. Wires are rated by "ampacity" and some sort of protective device is supposed to prevent current from exceeding that rating. Fuse, circuit breaker, fusible-wire-link, etc. But -often a circuit has multiple small appliances or lights hooked in so the fuse needs to be big enough to handle all of them when on simultaneously. I gave the 20 amp household circuit hooked to a 1 amp table lamp as a previous example. Yes, you could put a 2 amp fuse on that circuit - but then you could not use the circuit for anything else. A low amp main fuse for a low amp appliance only works if it's dedicated to that one appliance or light. In the case of an RV, often items like . . the furnace, fridge, and water pump have their own separate circuits. Other smaller items like lights usually do not. You don't want to run a pair of wires and a separate circuit for every light in the RV, do you? If an RV has 8 lights on one circuit and just one is turned on the draw might be 1-2 amps. If all 8 are turned on at once the total draw might be 15 amps. So, that circuit needs a fuse or breaker over 15 amps. A 20 amp fuse and 14 gauge wire would work OK.

Usually (but not always) the fuse and wire size are matched. If there is a low draw appliance or light on a circuit with a much higher amp rating, it can have its own lower amp additional fuse if wanted AT the appliance. Just a little in-line fuse. I noticed last night my Dometic RM211 refrigerator from my 1978 Chinook has one hidden inside the metal wire-box in the back. There's a little 10 amp fuse stuffed in there I hadn't been aware of.. That eliminates the need for having a huge amount of circuits and miles of wire strung. I could hook it to a 30 amp circuit with 10 gauge wire if I wanted, and it would blow its own 10 amp fuse if there was trouble with it.

Don't get me wrong. If you want to run a separate pair of wires and a separate fuse for every single light and appliance in your RV, you are certainly entitled and it won't hurt anything except maybe your wallet and patience. it is not normal convention though.

Back in the 80s and older, USA built cars were known for skimping and not using two wires to every light or circuit.. They'd "cheat" and run use the metal ground for negative at every light instead. Once the car rusted a bit, the lights stopped working. That's why the Japanese imports that starting showing up in mass in the late 60s had electrical systems that always seemed to work, even when rusted to death. Eventually, the USA adopted the two wire hookups also to increase reliability..

[MontanaChinook]

Yep, I'm more or less on track now, with what I understand. I can put a low amp appliance on 12 gauge wire (since its what I already bought), and pick a fuse size based on the appliance rather than the wire. Not the most economical way to do it, but its safe.

I'll probably put three of the lights on one, and tie in the the fourth light with something else, just so I have one light on another circuit in case the lights blew a fuse.

I basically just have the furnace, lights, and a water pump. So I'll likely only have two, at most three circuits.

[WME]

Suggest 4 fuses of correct size.

1 furnace

2 two lights

3. two lights

4 Water pump

[MontanaChinook]

Thanks. I guess I should add a small fan to that list, but it can be on a circuit with something else.

[zero]

Thanks. I guess I should add a small fan to that list, but it can be on a circuit with something else.

I don't want to confuse things further - but most low amp appliances like small fans and lights are built in a way that they can't start a fire if protected by a 15 amp fuse. My point being that a 1 amp light fixture hooked into a 15 amp circuit is likely to be safe. It's the high-amp circuits that usually have more of a fire potential. That's why high-amp appliances tend to have their own separate circuits and light circuits do not.

[MontanaChinook]

That helps, thanks.

[Maineah]

More fires are started by bad connections then overloads. Ever year the NEC insists on arc fault breakers in more areas of homes just for that reason. So no matter how well you fuse your MH just be sure all your connections are top notch 12 volts can produce just as much heat as 120. Learn how to convert watts to amps and be sure to add them all up on your circuits one 1157 bulb is around 25 watts for example add a stupid little bath room fan at 20 watts it all adds up fast at 12 volts.

[MontanaChinook]

Hmm. I'm going to take "More fires are started by bad connections" advice to heart...

I haven't really soldered before, and my first attempt on these lights was not good. I mean it might work, but I don't feel comfortable with it. I almost wonder if it wouldn't be smarter to just buy a new LED light fixture; something I can just connect wires with instead of soldering connections.

I see a lot of posts around here about putting in LED bulbs, but not much on LED fixtures themselves with the bulbs they come with. So there are reviews of what LED lights have good, bright light comparable to a regular light?

Does anyone have experience with good LEDs, if I was looking for the whole package? Fixture with lights already in it? They don't look expensive at all, and since my RV is torn apart anyways, it's no big deal to just put in new fixtures.

Sorry this is a bit off the topic...Maybe I should start another thread.

[Derek up North]

Sorry this is a bit off the topic...Maybe I should start another thread.

I don't think this is off topic. You want to wire LED light in your project. Just don't start rambling about Makita drills!

Why not grab a bunch of scrap wires and practice your soldering. Practice makes (near to) perfect!

[MontanaChinook]

Actually for some reason when I posted that I thought I was in waiter's LED thread, not my own..! So yeah, not off topic.

I could do that!

The switch is pretty old & corroded too, though. It seems like a good time to upgrade. But either way, working on my soldering skills can't be a bad idea.

[zero]

Hmm. I'm going to take "More fires are started by bad connections" advice to heart...

I haven't really soldered before, and my first attempt on these lights was not good. I mean it might work, but I don't feel comfortable with it. I almost wonder if it wouldn't be smarter to just buy a new LED light fixture; something I can just connect wires with instead of soldering connections.

I see a lot of posts around here about putting in LED bulbs, but not much on LED fixtures themselves with the bulbs they come with. So there are reviews of what LED lights have good, bright light comparable to a regular light?

Does anyone have experience with good LEDs, if I was looking for the whole package? Fixture with lights already in it? They don't look expensive at all, and since my RV is torn apart anyways, it's no big deal to just put in new fixtures.

Sorry this is a bit off the topic...Maybe I should start another thread.

I prefer standard 12 volt incandescent fixtures with LED bulbs stuck into them. In case an LED blows, it's then easy to fix and just change the bulb. And yes , LEDs do sometimes blow out. I've a mix of incandscents, CFLs, and LEDs in my RVs and house (that's wired for 12 volts). What I've found is that many LEDs are a sharp cold, irritating light - especially the cheap ones. Pick something with high lumens and a "warm" glow. Might cost a few bucks more but well worth it.

I got many of my LED bulbs from http://www.led4rv.net/where2Use.php

Good people to deal with, great selection, and pretty good prices. Not always the cheapest, but close enough.

I recently bought a bunch of new light fixtures for my Chinook for $5 each. Single # 1141 bulb and rocker-switch for each. A standard 1141 incandescent has about 400 lumens of light and draws 2 amps @ 12 volts. Finding an LED with a warm glow with that much light is not always easy when catalog shopping. I use the single bulb "warm" LEDs in most of my lights. They make 300 lumens and draw 1/10th of an amp. On the ceiling or over the bed for reading - I used a twin-pad LED. It plugs into the standard bulb base but has two rectangle bulbs that lay right on the lense. No danger since they don't get hot.

1141 bulb takes a BA15S baynonet base and is the most common base used for RV lighting. Same base used in type 93, 1156, 1073, 1093, 1129, etc.

When it comes to wire hook-ups - crimp-connections are fine for wires 30 amps or less. No crime in soldering if you want to but not necessary. I'm talking about connectors you crimp with crimping-pliers and NOT the Scotch-Lock connectors you squeeze together with pliers. I'm also talking about indoor connections not exposed to weather. I've seen plenty of bad connections and all were bad because they were done incorrectly. Wrong tools, wrong materials, etc. A simple crimp-type wire-connector used properly and indoors is not going to give you any trouble.

Your're going to find that many LEDs do not put out near the lumens of your original incandescents. So read the spec charts closely.

[zero]

Actually for some reason when I posted that I thought I was in waiter's LED thread, not my own..! So yeah, not off topic.

I could do that!

The switch is pretty old & corroded too, though. It seems like a good time to upgrade. But either way, working on my soldering skills can't be a bad idea.

If you're talking about indoor connections - a good crimp connection is fast, easy, and it apt to be trouble free forever unless your roof leaks and it repeatedly gets wet.

[MontanaChinook]

Thanks.

My issue was the LED bulb-to light switch connection. It's just a little metal tab that was soldered on by Chinook. It's the connection from the LED wire to that tab on the switch I'm soldering.

[MontanaChinook]

Here are some close ups. I know the large bare wire goes to the frame. Is this bar that the bare wire is coming out of what I can ground my DC wires to?

[Maineah]

Many replacement LED's are plug and play they have the bulb base all ready connected to them and you just pull on the bulb and insert the LED's in the fixture no wiring required uses the old lamp guts .

[Maineah]

Here are some close ups. I know the large bare wire goes to the frame. Is this bar that the bare wire is coming out of what I can ground my DC wires to?

IMG_1294.JPGIMG_1295.JPG

No, nothing 12 volts should be inside that area. Your DC ground is the big lug on the 12 volt side marked gnd/wht. You can tie that to the frame ground at the same point as the other one that's OK but not in the box.. The ideal is to keep every thing of a different voltage separated to avoid 120 volts on your 12 volt DC circuits.

[MontanaChinook]

Oh...I thought the gnd/wht was where the other battery wire connected to. So...it doesn't make sense to splice all - wires down to one wire and connect it there? I guess I still don't see where I'm going to attach the - wires for all 7 of my electric appliances. That's just one lug on the converter that says gnd/wht.

The LED lights I bought don't fit my current bulbs. So that's part of the problem. But I was expecting to do it like waiter did and solder them in, so I wasn't worried about that when I bought them...

I'll need to do more searching to see what will fit my Chinook. The LED SMD Warm White 36-1210s are not direct replacements for my bulbs..

[zero]

Here are some close ups. I know the large bare wire goes to the frame. Is this bar that the bare wire is coming out of what I can ground my DC wires to?

IMG_1294.JPGIMG_1295.JPG

The ground bar is there for the negative wires from the DC circuits and the grounds from the AC circuits. It is the only part in the power-center where AC and DC wires are hooked together.

But - one thing has me confused. The wiring diagram from Progressive Dynamics shows the ground bar on the BOTTOM and the neutral bar ABOVE it. Look at the diagram.

In the photo you posted, it looks like you got them wired opposite - but I cannot tell for sure with the perspective of the photo.

You MUST figure out for SURE - which is the NEUTRAL bus bar and which is the GROUND bus bar. The neutral bus-bar is for AC white neutral wires only. The ground bus-bar is for AC ground and DC negative.

The PD diagram is clearly labeled.

Also note - the ground bar will be bolted directly to the metal case of the power center. The neutral bar will not and there will be some sort of insulation material keeping it from being grounded to the metal case of the power center.

[zero]

Here are some close ups. I know the large bare wire goes to the frame. Is this bar that the bare wire is coming out of what I can ground my DC wires to?

IMG_1294.JPGIMG_1295.JPG

I think it would behoove you to call tech support at Progressive Dynamics and ask a few questions. There is no wiring schematic in the PD manual. Just a simple diagram. It's a poorly written manual and lacks many specifics. If I had the power center here in front of me, I could tell how it's meant to be wired by looking it. I cannot tell from here and the manuals is kind of useless for anything in-depth.

Question #1 if I was asking is -which is the neutral bar and which is ground? They show an upper and lower in their diagram but in the photo you posted - there doesn't seem to be an upper or lower. Or is it just the photo that's fooling me?

Question #2 is about DC negative. Is it BONDED to the metal frame of the power-center or is it isolated? I cannot tell from the photo or the PD diagram. A schematic would clearly indicate that fact but they don't provide one.

[MontanaChinook]

Yeah, you're right. An electrician wired the AC, so I don't know. I'll look and make sure they did it right.

This is why in the link I posted, they contacted PD support. Unless you really know how to wire, the grounding on this thing is not obvious... I'll check into into it.

[MontanaChinook]

I see where some of the confusion is. The wiring diagram you posted is the one that comes with the instructions. But on the wiring diagram I posted a few posts back, which is attached to the door of the actual converter, it shows the ground going to the top bar and neutral going to the bottom bar, even though its molded right into the plastic that its the other way around.

You can also see that in your diagram, the AC Hot is attached to the AC Hot lug on the side of the case. Which is how the converter was wired when it came out of the box. But in the diagram I posted, it shows the AC hot going to a breaker...which is all how the electrician wired it. He did it the way the diagram I posted shows, not the way the other diagram shows. I will be contacting PD!

[MontanaChinook]

While I'm waiting for a response from PD and best converter, can someone tell me in what situation I would want to add a fusible link? Rather than a fuse? I rewiring from the battery back into the coach, and all coach wiring. Would I use a fusible link anywhere?

[waiter]

Remember, the fuse is there to protect the wiring (distribution) system, not the load

Fusable link. Na.

I would use a self resetting breaker for the main feed. if you have a high power inverter, it would power directly off the battery with its own fuse.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Maineah]

Oh...I thought the gnd/wht was where the other battery wire connected to. So...it doesn't make sense to splice all - wires down to one wire and connect it there? I guess I still don't see where I'm going to attach the - wires for all 7 of my electric appliances. That's just one lug on the converter that says gnd/wht.

The LED lights I bought don't fit my current bulbs. So that's part of the problem. But I was expecting to do it like waiter did and solder them in, so I wasn't worried about that when I bought them...

I'll need to do more searching to see what will fit my Chinook. The LED SMD Warm White 36-1210s are not direct replacements for my bulbs..

That is known as a single point ground there is lots of room under that lug. There is nothing better than a single point ground it all but eliminates ground loops you could also run your grounds to the battery - post.but the big lug is battery - and frame ground. Your battery will have a frame ground so they are the same potential electrically the 12 volt side does not “float” like the neutral does in the 120 volt stuff. The reason the neutral is not grounded in the high voltage side is for your protection in case the high school kid that did some of the camp ground wiring reversed the white and black wires in the camp ground outlet. All electrical code assumes the worst case scenario so if the camp ground outlet is wired backwards you run a risk of a “hot” MH frame with you being the ground when you grab the door handle. The code is a”what if the ground is not adequate”. The same holds true for wiring inside the converter box if you have 12 volt wiring inside the 120 volt compartment you run the risk of your 12 volt wiring becoming 120 volts not a good thing. You could use a fuse link but if you have an issue you’ll need another one, something a hardware store won’t have. An auto reset breaker would probably be what you want. The charger/converter is well protected with its own fuses including reverse polarity. Where ever you fuse your battery wire the closer to the source the better that will give you the least amount of unprotected wire.

[MontanaChinook]

Ok, no fusible links! That's easy then.

Still waiting for a response from both PD and bestrvconverter....I guess a phone call would be better. If I can get some info on this converter, this weekend should be a pretty constructive one! Will be ready for walls once the wiring is done, and once I know what I'm doing, the wiring should only take an afternoon.

[Derek up North]

Don't forget to make notes/sketches/pictures so the the next owner(s) don't have to scratch their heads when trying to figure out what you've done!

[MontanaChinook]

Nah....let them suffer!

No, that's a good idea. Even if just for myself. It will be very basic, though. That's the nice thing about this rv. Four sets of wires for lights, one for the furnace, one for the water pump. I'll add one more set for a fan and that's it for wires.

[Derek up North]

In case you or someone else might decide they'd like a TV, VCR, Microwave, A/C, etc, maybe run a few extra wires and leave them unterminated, tucked away in a cupboard or behind a panel.

[MontanaChinook]

Good idea!

In other news, after simply watching a couple YouTube videos on soldering, I got what I feel are acceptable joints between the new LEDs and the switch in my light fixture. Should have just done a little research in the first place....

[Derek up North]

Next thing you know, you'll be answering question instead of asking them! That's the way it works!

[MontanaChinook]

Oh yeah. Happened to me a few times already. I've been doing this stuff long enough that I ought to know more than i do...but there are a few areas I know pretty well, and I'm always learning in the others. Electricity is not one I've spent any time with till now...

I definitley didn't grow up with any exposure to any of this stuff.

[Maineah]

A little hint if your battery is not frame grounded it will not charge from the truck alternator and you will have amazing things going on with your lights etc. The DC wiring has no neutral it has a + and a - Looking at the converter you seem to have installed the two lugs that have nothing on them are for the battery connections the one with the big copper strap is the + the one marked grd/wht is the battery - connection I would land both the - from the battery and the frame ground there. Another thing you may want to add would be lighter socket or two great for cell phones and such.

[MontanaChinook]

Well, progressive dynamics is a huge help..."we don't give wiring advice because we don't expect the end user to do the installation. It should be done by a professional."

I have a call in to the people I bought it from, since they do claim to offer tech help.