Bearing repack - rear axle?

[waiter]

Derek, Ditto. I wouldn't loose a lot of sleep over that inner seal thats in JDs photo (if was there, or not, or got replaced or not) I regardless, I would pack the bearings.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Tundrawolf]

Hm, well I ride a V Star 1100 motorcycle, and I have heard of final drive failure (They're shaft drive) happening "For no reason". But, upon further research, i found a way for the gear oil to come into contact with the spline grease... I think in some scenarios the two are *not* compatible, and actually lose their lubricity, leading to failure. So... If the axle is perfectly level and you pull the axle shafts and no oil comes out, that might not bode will for the bearings. I think, then, one should determine how much *additional* oil, and especially *total* oil it takes for it to begin trickling out of the spindles. Then, determine how much oil it would take to establish a suitable level within the full floating assemblies to adequately lubricate the bearings.

Now, someone said something about this design being almost the same as a Dana design. Well, how much oil is typically found in the Dana full floating hub assemblies when disassembled? And- is the oil free to drain back into the axle housing, or would it be okay just being spun around within the full floater assemblies?

[zero]

Hm, well I ride a V Star 1100 motorcycle, and I have heard of final drive failure (They're shaft drive) happening "For no reason". But, upon further research, i found a way for the gear oil to come into contact with the spline grease... I think in some scenarios the two are *not* compatible, and actually lose their lubricity, leading to failure. So... If the axle is perfectly level and you pull the axle shafts and no oil comes out, that might not bode will for the bearings. I think, then, one should determine how much *additional* oil, and especially *total* oil it takes for it to begin trickling out of the spindles. Then, determine how much oil it would take to establish a suitable level within the full floating assemblies to adequately lubricate the bearings.

Now, someone said something about this design being almost the same as a Dana design. Well, how much oil is typically found in the Dana full floating hub assemblies when disassembled? And- is the oil free to drain back into the axle housing, or would it be okay just being spun around within the full floater assemblies?

When the Dana 60, 70, 70HD, etc. are full, and on level ground - hardly any oil flows from the center-section to the bearing hubs on the ends. A lot of transfer back and forth happens when on side hills, rounding turns, etc. The fill-level is just a hair above the rear-housing-tubes. Just enough to let oil trickle into the ends when level. Pretty much the same on the Toyota rear. Toyota oil from the center section surely makes its way to the ends as-is. My 1978 1/2 ton Toyota had gear oil all over the brakes because the oil got past the sealed bearing and single seal on each side. Several of the Toyota full-floaters I had apart that DID have the small axle seals also had some gear oil in the bearings.

90W gear oil is basically 40W SAE motor oil with EP additives if it's GL5. If it's GL1, it's just 30-40W SAE motor oil with no additives. #2 wheel bearing grease is usually composed of 30W motor oil with EP additives suspended in clay or lithium soap. No incompatibilities that are going to hurt anything. Rear axles with hypoid gears and no yellow metals (like brass or copper) do fine with GL5 gear oil. If there is yellow metal - oil without the EP is needed. GL1 or sometimes GL4. EP additives include zinc and phosphorus.

Lube to protect splined shafts is totally differently Usually Molybdenum disulfide. Used on many normally non-lube situations where splines get hammered and worn. If you were to buy a new clutch kit for a Toyota it is likely to come with a little packet of Moly grease to put on the clutch disk splines.

[Bob C]

This is probably the biggest maintenance job that I will complete on the MH this year. I plan on replacing the brakes, brake cylinders, springs and seals. The numbers that were provided are good to have. Thank you

[Tundrawolf]

When the Dana 60, 70, 70HD, etc. are full, and on level ground - hardly any oil flows from the center-section to the bearing hubs on the ends. A lot of transfer back and forth happens when on side hills, rounding turns, etc. The fill-level is just a hair above the rear-housing-tubes. Just enough to let oil trickle into the ends when level. Pretty much the same on the Toyota rear. Toyota oil from the center section surely makes its way to the ends as-is. My 1978 1/2 ton Toyota had gear oil all over the brakes because the oil got past the sealed bearing and single seal on each side. Several of the Toyota full-floaters I had apart that DID have the small axle seals also had some gear oil in the bearings.

90W gear oil is basically 40W SAE motor oil with EP additives if it's GL5. If it's GL1, it's just 30-40W SAE motor oil with no additives. #2 wheel bearing grease is usually composed of 30W motor oil with EP additives suspended in clay or lithium soap. No incompatibilities that are going to hurt anything. Rear axles with hypoid gears and no yellow metals (like brass or copper) do fine with GL5 gear oil. If there is yellow metal - oil without the EP is needed. GL1 or sometimes GL4. EP additives include zinc and phosphorus.

Lube to protect splined shafts is totally differently Usually Molybdenum disulfide. Used on many normally non-lube situations where splines get hammered and worn. If you were to buy a new clutch kit for a Toyota it is likely to come with a little packet of Moly grease to put on the clutch disk splines.

How much oil comes out of the Dana axle when you remove the axle halves?

[Tundrawolf]

When the Dana 60, 70, 70HD, etc. are full, and on level ground - hardly any oil flows from the center-section to the bearing hubs on the ends. A lot of transfer back and forth happens when on side hills, rounding turns, etc. The fill-level is just a hair above the rear-housing-tubes. Just enough to let oil trickle into the ends when level. Pretty much the same on the Toyota rear. Toyota oil from the center section surely makes its way to the ends as-is. My 1978 1/2 ton Toyota had gear oil all over the brakes because the oil got past the sealed bearing and single seal on each side. Several of the Toyota full-floaters I had apart that DID have the small axle seals also had some gear oil in the bearings.

90W gear oil is basically 40W SAE motor oil with EP additives if it's GL5. If it's GL1, it's just 30-40W SAE motor oil with no additives. #2 wheel bearing grease is usually composed of 30W motor oil with EP additives suspended in clay or lithium soap. No incompatibilities that are going to hurt anything. Rear axles with hypoid gears and no yellow metals (like brass or copper) do fine with GL5 gear oil. If there is yellow metal - oil without the EP is needed. GL1 or sometimes GL4. EP additives include zinc and phosphorus.

Lube to protect splined shafts is totally differently Usually Molybdenum disulfide. Used on many normally non-lube situations where splines get hammered and worn. If you were to buy a new clutch kit for a Toyota it is likely to come with a little packet of Moly grease to put on the clutch disk splines.

Well, I packed the bearings with grease, and I am extremely satisfied with the performance.

The part number you gave for the small inner seal is incorrect. The seals they sent me are larger (Almost as large as the drum seal). Both of the smaller inner shaft seals are leaking. One side had a little grease remaining as a lot of the fluid had gotten in, and the other was almost totally washed out. That side had some grey metal shavings spill out when I loosened the shaft. So I'd really like to separate the fluid from those bearings. It actually did really well temperature wise with only Green Grease, with a pretty heavy load on it, over almost 400 miles. (112 degrees F on the side I tightened a little too tight, and 93 on the other, barely warm to the touch)

Is there any to get a good part number for those smaller inner seals?

If anyone is wondering how hard it is to repack the bearings, the answer is, not at all.

If you want to replace the brake shoes, take pictures of the front and back angles of the brakes *before* you remove them. There are more springs in there than I have seen on a drum brake equipped vehicle before, and it can get very confusing. I took pictures before I tore it down and it came in very handy.

The part numbers for the shoes, the hold down kit, and the drum seals were spot- on. Just the smaller inner seals was incorrect. Oh, and the cylinders were correct, I installed those as well. Stops very good, actually.

Okay, so I see that the correct inner seal is Beck Arnley 052-3184 and they are plentiful. I tried going off of the number that was on the seal and had zero luck. So this is good news. Thanks a lot!

[Derek up North]

I wonder if there might be more than one model of FF rear axle. That could explain why the seals worked for JD and not for you.

[Tundrawolf]

I wonder if there might be more than one model of FF rear axle. That could explain why the seals worked for JD and not for you.

That could be... But they were so large, maybe a number got transposed. I'm glad I have the right number now, though!

[DanAatTheCape]

I have done the job. I would replace both seals & pack the bearings. That is how the people who make toyota's did it & it works.

[zero]

Was it a Beck-Arnely #? The inner seals on the FFs are single-spring-loaded lip made from nitrile. 2.44" ID, 3.35" OD and .315" thick. National # 226285, NAPA/SKF # 24635

[linda s]

All the seals and gaskets are still available from toyota. Look here to find the part number and then you can buy locally or buy from them for a discount. Takes a while to narrow it down to your truck or you can enter your vin.

http://www.toyotapartszone.com/toyota-truck-pickup-parts.html

Linda S

[pcmentor29]

jdemaris

Yes the number was wrong, darn I should have read the whole thread before ordering. I don't know if I can get my $14 back. Can you please edit that post to correct number? Which(from photo posted) is Beck/Arnley 052-3184 Thanks

[pcmentor29]

Was it a Beck-Arnely #? The inner seals on the FFs are single-spring-loaded lip made from nitrile. 2.44" ID, 3.35" OD and .315" thick. National # 226285, NAPA/SKF # 24635

Hi, jdemaris, can you please double check the hub seals number is correct? I bought Beck/Arnley 052-2375. No big deal about the tiny seals, I will reorder them. btw I am getting gear oil leaking onto the steel wheel from the tiny seal which is leaking on to my hub cover then inside out to the wheel. Thanks

[pcmentor29]

Was it a Beck-Arnely #? The inner seals on the FFs are single-spring-loaded lip made from nitrile. 2.44" ID, 3.35" OD and .315" thick. National # 226285, NAPA/SKF # 24635

I looked up at Napa Site and the Napa number doesn't look right as well. Can you tell me the source of the Beck/Arnley numbers for these parts? I am trying hard to find a diagram or photo of the FF axle with the drum removed and showing the brake assy. I want to know if the small lower spring that attaches to a hook spotwelded to the backing plate is the other end supposed to go to the rear shoe or somewhere on the adjuster. Thanks.

[waiter]

Not sure if you seen this thread

BACK BRAKES AND BEARINGS

Also, attached is the Service manual for the rear axle.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

Dully_Rear_End_Overhaul.pdf

[zero]

Again . . . the small outer seals are Beck Arnley # 052-3184. They are approx 1 5/8" OD, 1 5/16" ID, and 3/8" in depth. To be exact - 1.62" OD, 1.378" ID, and .359" thick. Toyota # 9031035001, Timken 710076, SKF or NAPA 13911

The inner seals on the FFs are single-spring-loaded lip made from nitrile. 2.44" ID, 3.35" OD and .315" thick. National # 226285, NAPA/SKF # 24635, Timken 226285, Beck Arnley 0522-680.

I'll post a photo of the brakes with drum off a little later (from my other computer).

[zero]

Some photos of a 1987 dually FF rear with new brakes (in a 1978 Toyota Chinook).

[zero]

. I want to know if the small lower spring that attaches to a hook spotwelded to the backing plate is the other end supposed to go to the rear shoe or somewhere on the adjuster. Thanks.

I assume you mean this spring? I just put new ones on mine.

[pcmentor29]

As others have already stated - as originally designed they are sealed and need to be packed. That being said, I've come across two Toyota full-floaters now where those tiny little seals were omitted so the bearings did indeed get lubricated from the gear oil in the center-section. The Toyota design is almost identical to the US designed Dana and Rockwell full-floaters that self-lube. I can't think of any reason why those little internal seals need to be there. Maybe Toyota copied a USA design and tweaked it a bit to be different.

It's not a 10 minute task to pull off those rear hubs and drums. I'd be prepared to put in new brakes, wheel cylinders, main hub seals etc. unless you think it's been done recently. The parts prices are cheap if you pre-plan. You can get new brake shoes, new wheel cylinders, new hub seals, and a hold-down kit for a total of $40. Relined Bendix shoes (4 of them) cost $16 (BENDIX Part # RS523). Brand new wheel cylinders are $6.50 each, a shoe hold-down kit with new springs is $3.50 (DORMAN Part # HW24049), new hub seals are $1.20 each ( BECK/ARNLEY Part # 0522375),and the teeny little axle seals that prevent your bearings from self-lube are $1.65 each (BECK/ARNLEY Part # 0522680).

Wow! I almost sent them back! So your post above is incorrect in two places? The hub seals are Beck/Arnley 0522680 not 0522375? And the tiny seals are 0523184 not 0522680? This is really important for doing this job. Can you repost/reaffirm the correct numbers for the hub seals and the tiny seals. Please check them for accuracy. Thanks so much, I really appreciate you posting the photos, I could not find an example anywhere! Thanks. Thanks waiter for the good link. Edited May 13, 2013 by pcmentor29

[zero]

Wow! I almost sent them back! So your post above is incorrect in two places? The hub seals are Beck/Arnley 0522680 not 0522375? And the tiny seals are 0523184 not 0522680? This is really important for doing this job. Can you repost/reaffirm the correct numbers for the hub seals and the tiny seals. Please check them for accuracy. Thanks so much, I really appreciate you posting the photos, I could not find an example anywhere! Thanks. Thanks waiter for the good link.

I don't have any master catalog with specs for anything I get from Beck Arnley. That's why I gave the sizes along with numbers. I've gotten the same size seal in various part #s from Beck Arnley and can't say I fully understand their system. Parts numbers can vary by age, size, lip configuration, and material-type on the seal-lip.

I have a master seal book here that gives all specs along with cross-reference for part #s for most major brand but Beck Arnley is not included in the list.

I would not buy a seal for anything without pulling the old seal and measuring and/or looking for the original # on it. Most seals have a factory # on them but some German and Asian seals do not.

The large inboard seal is: 2.44" ID, 3.35" OD and .315" thick. Made to fit a 62 mm (2 7/16") shaft size. Seal-lip type is a CRW1_R. Easiest way to get it locally is witth the SKF or NAPA # 24635. Type "CRW1" is a one-sided seal case (the steel part) and a single-lip spring-loaded type seal that is centered in the steel case. "R" stands for Nitrile lip material. I can give a dozen more part #s but that just adds to the confusion.

The small outboard seal is: 1.614" to 1.62" OD, 1.378" ID, .359" thick. Made to fit a 35 mm shaft size. Seal-lip type is HMS41_R. Easiest way go get it locally is with the SKF or NAPA # 13911. "HMS41" is a one-sided seal case (the steel part) and a single-lip spring-loaded type seal that extends outwards beyond the steel case. "R" stands for Nitrile lip material.

Many companies will offer a same size seal with multiple part #s depending on the lip material itself - e.g. R for Nitrile, D for Duralip, H for Duratemp, P for Polyhacrylates, S for Silicone, V for LongLife, M for Ethylene-Propylene, etc.

Toyota/Dyna used seals made from Nitrile. Code "R". Temp range -40F to +250F. 70/80 on the durometer scale. "R" has "good" abrasion resistance, whereas a seal coded "H" or "D" is more durable with "excellent" abraision resistance. Nitrile is also rated "good" for dry-running for short periods of time. Nitrile also has "excellent" resistance to most mineral oils and greases.

[pcmentor29]

Thanks for taking time to help me. I measured the Beck/Arnley 052-2680 seal and got 3.35 OD and 2.44 ID(up to 2.55 if squish the rubber) and 0.315 thick(I should measure the thickness on the thinnest part near the edge right? That is, not over the raised ridge or rubber lip?) Were you able to get the measurments you gave me from a book or your own measurements? I will measure the small seals when they arrive in a couple days. Please let me know the correct way to measure the edge. Thanks

[pcmentor29]

I have a master seal book here that gives all specs along with cross-reference for part #s for most major brand but Beck Arnley is not included in the list.

I would not buy a seal for anything without pulling the old seal and measuring and/or looking for the original # on it. Most seals have a factory # on them but some German and Asian seals do not.

I was afraid the seals might not be available so I did not pull them yet.(I will probably damage them removing them) I see you have a master book, what listing are you using for these seals? Is it by car or just by measuring an existing seal and comparing the numbers? Thanks

[zero]

I was afraid the seals might not be available so I did not pull them yet.(I will probably damage them removing them) I see you have a master book, what listing are you using for these seals? Is it by car or just by measuring an existing seal and comparing the numbers? Thanks

My master seal book is indexed by application, size, or part #. This book was printed for NAPA so NAPA is the "default" seal #. Oil seals sold by NAPA are made by SKF so usually NAPA and SKF numbers are the same.

All the measurements I gave you are from measuring seals pulled from the Toyota FF rear axle and verifying by the book specs.

If you are measuring your old seals - you measure the ID by measuring the shaft-size of the area the seal rides over. I.e. you measure the OD of the steel axle or hub and not the ID of the seal itself. A seal will have a smaller ID then the shaft or hub it goes onto. For the OD - you can either measure the seal OD or measure the bore it goes into ID.

A seal that has goes on a shaft OD up to 1" will have an "actual" ID before it's stretched of .03" smaller. For shafts/hubs 1" to 2", the seal ID will be .047" smaller. For shafts/hubs 2" to 6", the seal ID will be .06" smaller.

For determining OD of the seal metal case - for seals up to 2", a metal seal needs to be .005" larger OD then the bore it presses into. If the seal is rubber it needs to be .008" larger then the bore it presses into.

For seals 2" to 3", a metal seal needs to be .0055" larger OD then the bore it presses into. If the seal is rubber it needs to be .01" larger then the bore it presses into.

Also - many replacement seals will not look exactly like the originals. Some older seals have "closed faces" on both sides whereas many newer replacement seals are only "closed face" on one side. This has no effect on actual sealing. The new National seals I got (the bigger ones) are closed-face on both sides, just like the originals.

The small seals -Beck Arnley 052-3184, have a number on the seal itself that indicates it's an OEM seal. AC8368E which is an NOK seal #, same as Toyota uses OEM. NOK is the Nippon Oil Seal Company.

[pcmentor29]

Thanks for the info. I plan to do the job in a couple days when the small seals arrive. I can't leave greasy surfaces exposed because we get blowing sand here. So I want to do the job without interuption. Your help has been very informative, thanks.

[pcmentor29]

Got the small seals, they seem to be the right dimensions. I am waiting till Friday for my seal driver kit. I think I will see if my new drums fit the hubs tomorrow. Thanks

[pcmentor29]

The new drums from Autozone fit perfectly. How is the right way to use a seal driver? Do you tap it slowly assuring the seal is even? I tapped it hard and only one side went in then had to even it out. Well, I still have the left side to do, I will do better I hope. The emergency brake cable travels about an inch when disconnected. Is this correct or should it be more? The cable doesn't seem to bind. Thanks

[zero]

To each his own. I rarely use seal drivers. They sometimes are more apt to damage a seal then installing without. I probably have every seal driver style and size known to man. Most go unused except for some specialty style seals that absolutely require a driver to prevent lip inversion.

The Toyota seals in that rear install very easily with a few light taps of a hammer. The bigger steel-cased seal goes in the hardest. You must attempt to keep it in the same plane as the bore it's going into. Just tap while going around in a circle and it will go right in. With a driver - you attempt to hammer straight on or use a press. A hand-held hammer and no driver works just as well and often better.

The smaller rubber-cased seal can almost be pushed in by hand; Very easy to tap it in, while going in a circle with a hammer. A seal driver will have post that attached to it and you drive on the post. Again, not really necessary.

[zero]

I should of mentioned. The hardest part is getting the seal started and not having it tilt. Once started and even - it will easily tap right in.

[DanAatTheCape]

As to the big seal, I used the old seal to protect the new as I tapped it in. I used a piece of wood that was almost big enough to qualify as a seal installer tool. Just kept tapping on the side that had gone 'in' the least.

[pcmentor29]

Hi I am sorry I took a while to thank you. I am not getting email notifications on this thread for some reason. Oh OK I looked at expanded reply options and ticked the Follow box. Sorry. I really appreciate the help with the seals. Pete

[Tundrawolf]

Someone mentioned drums from Autozone, what is the part number for the one ton drum? I just had an Ebrake lever go and destroy a bunch of stuff

[Tundrawolf]

Again . . . the small outer seals are Beck Arnley # 052-3184. They are approx 1 5/8" OD, 1 5/16" ID, and 3/8" in depth. To be exact - 1.62" OD, 1.378" ID, and .359" thick. Toyota # 9031035001, Timken 710076, SKF or NAPA 13911

The inner seals on the FFs are single-spring-loaded lip made from nitrile. 2.44" ID, 3.35" OD and .315" thick. National # 226285, NAPA/SKF # 24635, Timken 226285, Beck Arnley 0522-680.

I'll post a photo of the brakes with drum off a little later (from my other computer).

You quoted the part number for a spring kit, that seemed to work. But when I installed it, it seemed that the keeper stems were a little too short. Look at how much spring compression I have:

In fact, I have less than a thousand miles on this swapped axle, and had the axle half shaft not have gone out, I wouldn't have known this happened at all. Look:

Here's a good assembly for reference:

My belief is that the brake show keeper pin was stressed so much it let go, allowing the assembly, including the mangled brake shoe separator (The curved thing) to bounce around in there. I have some grooves in my brake drum right now, on top of needing to replace the shoe separator. No wonder my parking brake was so weak.

Anyone have a part number for the brake shoe keepers? I am worried about the rest of the brakes.

[Tundrawolf]

In my estimation the kit's shoe hold down pins are 1/8-1/4" too short and really compress the springs too much, which I believe is what led to the pin letting go, and the shoe equalizer bar becoming loose and getting mangled so badly.

I am kind of at a loss as to what to do as the spring kit listed and the shoes listed are not compatible when it comes to the shoe hold down pins. Every other spring is spot on, however, which makes it all the more puzzling. In an emergency, if I cannot find the proper shoe hold down pins, I think i will have little other choice but to spot weld the pins to the cups to ensure that they hold. In actuality this poses a serious problem, because if something lets go (Take a close look at the mangled shoe equalizer/ separator bar. It's 3/16" thick+ and is literally bent in half) it can conceivably damage the brake piston leading to a loss in rear (Or all) brake pressures, and even more frightening, reducing or eliminating your emergency brake capabilities at the exact same time. Coupled with the fact that our RVs weigh a bunch, no brakes can be a recipe for disaster.

On all of the rear brake jobs I have done, I have never come across one where it seemed as stressed as this one. I should have guessed something was wrong.

If you have done one of these brake jobs, you can easily check to see if your shoe keeper pins are intact by looking behind the backing plate, and seeing if the stoppers for the shoe hold down pins are all still there. If you notice a hole instead of the metal circle, you might have a situation similar to mine. (Needless to say do not continue to drive your RV. Total brake failure may result.)

Here are some pictures of brake shoe keeper pins, springs, and cups with proper spring tension. Notice how far the cup is from the shoe, and how little tension is on the spring compared to mine. My springs are under far too much tension, either because the pins are too long, or the springs are too long.