TacomaSue Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I understand from this forum that it is common for the foam-backed cloth headliner on the '86 Sunraders to sag as the foam deteriorates and that it is very messy to remove this headliner. I am looking into adding more "buttons" to keep the headliner in place. The buttons have a small screw on the back If the sagging becomes worse, I will need to do more to hold it up or replace it. I would like to know what others have done to repair or replace their sagging headliner. If you replaced your cloth headliner, did you use cloth or some other material and how did you attach it, what type of glue? Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm no Sunrader Grand Pooh-Bah, but I believe the foam backed headliner was particular to Indiana built Sunraders and not California (curved window) Sunraders. The only (partial) cure I remember reading about is to laboriously scrape the crumbling foam (1 section at a time) from the headliner and reglue. I'd imagine that 3M spray adhesive would work, but I've no personal experience (no Sunrader)! http://www.sailrite....l-Trim-Adhesive . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulwyk Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Ah yes, the headliner. I did a '84 Sunrader last year...sagging headliner, leaks around vents, stains, mold, etc. My first thought was to remove the old headliner and replace it with new. Problem is, when they built the Sunrader they installed the headliner FIRST, then installed the cabinets on top of it, so you can't get the headliner out completely without removing the upper cabinets. I tried to scribe around the cabinets with a utility knife and got most of the headliner out that way. In other words, I tried to leave the portion of the headliner that was inside the cabinets in place (quite an unsatisfactory solution). Then I noticed the fiberglass roof was sagging...almost 2" at one point. (In defense of what follows, let me explain that it was a very hot day, musta been 110 inside the camper, I was covered with fiberglass dust and I'd been breathing mold smell all day. I had a headache and, well, you get it...) I lost my temper and attacked the cabinets with a hammer, then when I realized they were screwed to the fiberglass, I began working them with an electric screwdriver. Within 20 minutes I'd demolished the entire interior and thrown it out the door. Long story short, two months later I'd completely rebuilt the interior. Needless to say, I did not re-install that horrid foam and cloth type headliner. After jacking up the roof to remove the fiberglass sag, I put in plywood ribs with insulation between and covered the ceiling with 1/4" birch plywood. The birch plywood is strong enough to hold the ceiling against any future sag, and looks great with a varnish finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulwyk Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Oh, the glue. Ordinary construction adhesive works great on the fiberglass interior surfaces. I used Liquid Nails brand to secure plywood ribs and insulation. Lightly sand the fiberglass before smearing on the adhesive. You can use screws on the ceiling (but NOT the sides). The roof has a core material (1/2"?) between two fiberglass skins, making a total roof thickness of about 3/4". Just be sure the screws are not so long that they poke through the roof! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacomaSue Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Thanks. Great description of removing the headliner. A birch ceiling would be lovely and easy to clean. Does it make sound echo at all? What type of insulation did you use? I should have said that I have a Sunrader Adventure (a pop-top) so if I need to take the headliner down it should be a clearer shot---no cabinets in the way, but there is a lift mechanism. I am also concerned about how it is attached to the edges of the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I should have said that I have a Sunrader Adventure (a pop-top) You're on your own with that one. I've no idea how the headliner's done. I'd imagine that adding any weight would be a concern with a pop-top. I've no idea if the lift mechanism is adjustable in any way. It would be a shame to 'build' a beautiful new insulated ceiling only to discover you couldn't use it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacomaSue Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Good point. Weight is a very serious consideration. The SR Adventure has at least two types of pop-up mechanisms. Mine is manual and the top is already heavy for me to push up. I am hoping to avoid replacing the headliner by adding more buttons, but it is sagging more in my damp climate than it was in sunny so CA. (It may have a small leak around the vent which is adding moisture. ) Has anyone had any experience with cork on ceilings? What are some other lightweight materials? Thanks for your suggestions. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 How about gluing up some new headliner material? http://www.automotiveinteriors.com/headliners_readymade/order_foamback_material.htm http://www.wlsheadliners.com/headliner-material-60-inch-wide.html http://www.yourautotrim.com/suhefba.html Caution: Some headliner material is 54" wide. Of course I don't even know if 60" is wide enough (without a seam somewhere). Try the hotrod crowd. They might know someone. And your local boatyard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulwyk Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Derek is right: a birch headliner would be too heavy for a pop-up. I used polyester quilt batting for insulation. Cheap (WalMart), easy to cut (sissors), great insulation qualities. I'm thinking a cloth headliner over glued-on quilt batting with screw in buttons would look great and be as light (or lighter) than the original. You certainly have an interesting project going there, Sue. Be sure to post some photos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 You just might find so materials of interest at your local fabric store. I've got to admit, I have no idea what you're screw these 'screw-in buttons' to. What's up there other than the fiberglass roof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulwyk Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The roof is a fiberglass sandwich. There's a layer of fiberglass on top, maybe 1/8" thick. Beneath that top layer is a 1/2" thick core. And beneath that is another layer of fiberglass, the ceiling. The core has almost no strength at all, it's only there to hold the two fiberglass skins apart. My Sunrader has a core made of a cardboard honeycomb material. Sometimes they used a urethane foam material for the core and I've seen some boats that use balsa blocks. The resulting fiberglass-core-fiberglass sandwich acts like a very wide I-beam and is amazingly strong yet lightweight. You can put screws into the roof if you're careful to use a screw that is short enough that it pentrates the first layer of fiberglass and partway into the core but not so long that it penetrates that second fiberglass layer. Boatbuilders mostly use #8 stainless steel sheet metal screws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Thanks. I'd no idea it was a composite structure. Had assumed that it was just a single fiberglass layer. So a bit of insulation too. Of course, with the canvas walls, adding insulation to the roof is a bit like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Headliner fabric is available at Hancock Fabrics. In the upholstey section in big rolls. You can ask for the fabric with the foam backing. It's 12.99 a yard and they have some colors in 60 inch wide and some in 54 inch wide. You install it with 3m spray glue, High strength, heat resistant, find it in the auto section at Walmart. You can seam it so you can make it wide enough but seam from side to side and glue seams down before putting it up. Takes patience and some extra hands help. Start in the middle of the front and work out. and then work towards the back. Linda S I understand from this forum that it is common for the foam-backed cloth headliner on the '86 Sunraders to sag as the foam deteriorates and that it is very messy to remove this headliner. I am looking into adding more "buttons" to keep the headliner in place. The buttons have a small screw on the back If the sagging becomes worse, I will need to do more to hold it up or replace it. I would like to know what others have done to repair or replace their sagging headliner. If you replaced your cloth headliner, did you use cloth or some other material and how did you attach it, what type of glue? Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacomaSue Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Thanks. Very helpful Info. Do you glue the fabric directly to the fiberglass or do you add some insulation first---such as 1/4" rigid foam insulation? I have a large stack of hemlock strips that are 3" wide x 1/8" thick, very light weight and flexible enough to go over a rounded ceiling and I have considered using that. Gluing on strips of wood, however, seems as challenging as gluing on the fabric. I need to go back to re-measure and check more details. I will let you know what I do and how it comes out. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Again, weight is your enemy. Before gluing your hemlock up there, estimate how much will be needed and stack it on the top and see if you can still raise the roof. I'd also investigate if there's any way to adjust the lift. Isn't the top mechanism spring assisted? EDIT:- I don't know about your Sunrader, but it appears that the Chinook is adjustable with turnbuckles. "To pinpoint a likely year for your Fiberglas coach part, look at the slider part of the roof mechanism and see if there is a turnbuckle on each side for adjusting the tension of the arm springs. If there are none, the coach is '75 or earlier. I think some '78s didn't have the turnbuckles, too." http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyotachinook/message/3378 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacomaSue Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Hi Derek. My other ToyHome is a Bandit ('78 coach on '77 chassis). The Bandit has the pop-up mechanism similar to a Chinook with the spring and turn-buckle. I have poured over photographs on both this Forum and the Yahoo Toyota Camper site and there are very few pictures of the Sunrader Adventure. I have not seen any with the lift mechanism that is on my Adventure. It is a very simple lift----you just push it up and locks in place. It is not very adjustable. Also, if I had your height, it would be a lot easier to push up. The lift parts should not interfere with replacing the headliner, but I've not checked this out closely. When the rain lets up for more than a day, I will take the tarp off, photograph the lift, and post some pictures as there are none available, now. In 2008, Dutch uploaded pictures of a Sunrader PopTop which shows the other type of lift mechanism that raises and lowers the top using a crank. (I think that this is a chain and gear mechanism.) The lift on the front and back folds inward in the middle like some types of folding tables. This is the same type of lift mechanism that is on Sunrader Bob's Adventure. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 So there's no sign of springs or struts helping to lift the weight? Maybe a pair of 70s 3" platform shoes from the Thrift Store would help if you have a height deficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Like I said the fabric has a foam backing. needs to attach smoothly everywhere so pay attention when you pull the old stuff off and apply the new exactly the same. I just ripped the headliner out of a Tiger and it was attached directly to the fiberglass. Linda S Thanks. Very helpful Info. Do you glue the fabric directly to the fiberglass or do you add some insulation first---such as 1/4" rigid foam insulation? I have a large stack of hemlock strips that are 3" wide x 1/8" thick, very light weight and flexible enough to go over a rounded ceiling and I have considered using that. Gluing on strips of wood, however, seems as challenging as gluing on the fabric. I need to go back to re-measure and check more details. I will let you know what I do and how it comes out. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacomaSue Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 This is rather short notice, but Hancock Fabric (at least in my area) has their headliner fabric with foam backing on sale for 30% off until Feb 1, 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 There was a type of insultion i used several years ago .as a repair s kin on the bottom of my doble wide . I cant rember what it was called. it was like silver in clor and basicly several layers of Bubble wrap. Came in a large roll.Light and about a forth inch thick. Dont know if that could work or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I wish. No sale here. I just bought 100 bucks worth of the stuff for my Tiger project. Thats why I knew how much it was and how to take it out. For cheap just buy it and save it until your ready. Linda S This is rather short notice, but Hancock Fabric (at least in my area) has their headliner fabric with foam backing on sale for 30% off until Feb 1, 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacomaSue Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 A few comments back, there was a question about the lift mechanism in my Sunrader Adventure. A picture of the lift with the top up is attached. When you push the top up, you just push the brace on the right side hard enough to lock. (a bit like locking your knees) The weight of the top keeps it in place. To release the lock, push the top up and pull the brace toward the center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I wonder if you could get this setup improved by adding a gas strut(s) as used for hatchbacks? I imagine it might be possible to find one that would act along the line of the arrow I added to your drawing. You'd have to make sure it wasn't too strong or you'd have to fight to lower the top! Not that it makes much difference, but what view is that photo of? Looking at the driver's side? I'll also assume that there's another identical mechanism on the other side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacomaSue Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 The picture was taken from the back looking toward the cab and shows the front lift. The lift is almost directly over the driver and passenger seat backs. There is an identical lift in the rear over the hatch door. There are no lifts or braces on the sides of the coach. I had not thought of using gas struts. Good suggestion. Currently when the brace is released the top crashes down and I have been afraid I might catch my hand in between the bars. Using a gas strut could slow the drop of the roof. I have found a local source for gas struts as I plan to add gas struts to the rear hatch door. To lower the roof I need to be able to raise the roof a bit to release the brace. I have been thinking about some type of jack (scissor or bottle) jack to help raise the roof. Gas struts would be nicer. Thanks. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 So you end up raising/lowering one end at a time? There must be some 'slop' in each mechanism. I guess it's just the tension in the canvas that stops the roof shifting fore and aft once raised. I wonder if it's too late to patent the idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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