Battery Terminal Switch, Sparks, & secondary battery not charging

[mgrijalva]

Happy Thanksgiving, I hope your bellies are full like mine

Please help, this forum has practically saved my life, and now i need help again......

my 1985 Dolphin is making a noise and there is a spark (or lack of grounding) coming out of a screw end

Problem 1: the battery terminal switch (silver colored, w bell shape in picture) is new because the previous one was always hot to the touch.It is making a consistent sound, a 'cycling' sound, over and over. It is not hot to the touch. In conjunction w this sound the charge light in the dashboard light up sporadically w the sound.

Problem 2: a small dark box next to the terminal switch is setting off a spark. the spark goes off around every 20 seconds or so, but sometimes takes longer to spark. Sometimes the spark comes from 1 screw, or both screw ends. Sporadically, the spark will cross to the screw from the large dark box. please see photos. i colored the spark areas w yellow

Problem 3: my brand new secondary battery is not charging. i hope it is simply connected wrong and causing all these problems. My son hooked it up but is not mechanically inclined.

I drove from sacramento to grand junction colorado like this. I am able to hook up to shore fine. The only problem has been that the breaker went off & i had to replace a fuse ?because i ran a space heater too long?????

This was my maiden voyage, I am sad to report that it cost me a little over $300 in gasoline to drive from sacramento to salt lake city (last wk of oct) because it was on overdrive. When i purchased it, it was on overdrive already. The 85 model has a OFF light that remains lite while the overdrive is turned off. I didn't know this and drove it like this. i am lucky the motor didn't get blown. i hope i didn't caused any damage. other than the od, my first trip was great.

please help.

i hope to drive back sometime this weekend and shouldn't drive it like that.

i also added a picture of my baby

with gratitude

[Maineah]

That is an auto reset circuit breaker there is a fault (short) could be any where from it to the coach wiring. Start by disconnection the + wire at the coach battery and see what happens if it stops that rules out the wiring to the coach. Make SURE the coach battery is hooked up correctly if the polarity is wrong that will trip the breaker. Beyond that it gets far more involved. The noise is it resetting from an over load (doing it's job to protect the wiring). What fuse did you have to replace?

[zero]

Problem 1: the battery terminal switch (silver colored, w bell shape in picture) is new because the previous one was always hot to the touch.It is making a consistent sound, a 'cycling' sound, over and over. It is not hot to the touch. In conjunction w this sound the charge light in the dashboard light up sporadically w the sound.

Problem 2: a small dark box next to the terminal switch is setting off a spark. the spark goes off around every 20 seconds or so, but sometimes takes longer to spark. Sometimes the spark comes from 1 screw, or both screw ends. Sporadically, the spark will cross to the screw from the large dark box. please see photos. i colored the spark areas w yellow

Regardless of what might be wrong - none of those areas should show any sparks. So, #1 you must have bad corroded connections. Clean them up with a wire brush and maybe add some stainless-steel tooth washers designed to promote good electrical contact on ring-terminals. #2 - you the clicking is probably that self-resettting circuit breaker firing on and off. That may be due to an overload - but also can be caused by "old age." Those circuit breakers use a small heat-sensitive bi-metal strip and a set of contacts. They get worn-out over time and lose their current carrying capacity. So, so checking is in order. I might be a 30 amp breaker that is worn out and cannot even carry 10 amps. Or - it might be a 30 amp breaker with a 50 amp load on it and keeps tripping. If so, it will get ruined fast anyway. New self-setting breakers are only $8 each at any decent auto parts store.

Your old relay might of been getting hot because it was the wrong kind. Many relays used on cars and truck are only rated for part-time use. They draw more current and get hot if on all the time. That's why your setup is supposed to have a low-current "full time duty" relay. Many part-time auto relays that look the same draw 6 amps, whereas a full-time relay will often only draw 3/4 to 1 1/2 amps.

[zero]

. The only problem has been that the breaker went off & i had to replace a fuse ?because i ran a space heater too long?????

.

I forgot to ask. What sort of space heater and it's getting power from where? Hopefully you're not trying to run an AC electric heater through an DC to AC inverter. The on-board furnace is not technically a "space heater" so I assume you mean something else.

[mgrijalva]

forgot to add picture of battery, don't know if it is hooked up correctly and could b causing the problem

thank u so much for responding, u r my motorhome family.

here r more pictures.....i will read ur responses now.....

Edited November 23, 2012 by mgrijalva

[mgrijalva]

it appears i have several tasks before me.......

the space heater: at night i am hooked up to shore. the space heater is hooked up to the wall plug outlet. When it is really cold, i leave the space heater running night & day. the fuse that blew is the 4th from left to right. Far right being 4th. On 2 occasions i lost power for about a minute, it came back without having to reset anything. When the fuse blew, the lower breaker had to b reset.

meanwhile, i will work on my assigned tasks to narrow down the shortage

thnk u

Edited November 23, 2012 by mgrijalva

[zero]

it appears i have several tasks before me.......

the space heater: at night i am hooked up to shore. the space heater is hooked up to the wall plug outlet. When it is really cold, i leave the space heater running night & day. the fuse that blew is the 4th from left to right. Far right being 4th. On 2 occasions i lost power for about a minute, it came back without having to reset anything. When the fuse blew, the lower breaker had to b reset.

meanwhile, i will work on my assigned tasks to narrow down the shortage

thnk u

First of all, using a wall outlet inside the camper for a high-amp electric heater is probably a mistake. It alone probably maxes out the rating on your converter.

The AC and DC are totally separate systems within that converter/charger assembly. If you are blowing that DC fuse (#4) when running an AC (15 amp) electric heater from `120 volt grid power - it's probably a coincidence. All that converter does for the AC supply is connect grid power on shore to your outlets and protect with a circuit breaker. If that AC circuit breaker trips - it's an overload drawing AC. When that DC fuse blows - it's a separate overload on a DC circuit unrelated to the heater. Just keep in mind that you've got the one AC draw from that heater that is likely 15 amps. Then in addition that converter is also using AC power to convert to DC. Since there also must be a DC draw against that #4 fuse - you are drawing more then 15 amps on your AC grid line. That is probably an overload in itself. Read the label on it for max AC rating. If the male AC plug at the end of the converter power cord looks like a normal AC plug with two flat tangs parallet to each other and the attional roundish ground - it's only rated for 15 amps max. If one flat is 90 degrees off from the other - then it is a 20 amp plug and converter which is pretty rare.

I suspect as least one problem is that electric heater. Read the label on it. Most are 13 or 15 amps (1500 - 1800 watts). That in itself probably maxes out your converter. If let's say you also had a 20 amp, 12 volt DC draw on the DC side of that converter - that would be an addiontional 240 watts. That puts you over the max 15 amp total rating of the converter.

If you like using that electric heater and it is raged for 13-15 amps -buy a good extension cord and plug it directly into shore power. Do not use the wall plugs in the camper. All my RVs have been rewired and have two separate plugs I can use for shore power. One for the converter and the other for separate power strip inside the RV. I use that power strip for the rare occasions I use an electric heater.

[zero]

If the male AC plug at the end of the converter power cord looks like a normal AC plug with two flat tangs parallet to each other and the attional roundish ground - it's only rated for 15 amps max. If one flat is 90 degrees off from the other - then it is a 20 amp plug and converter which is pretty rare.

I assume you already know this but . .

This is a 120 volt AC plug rated for 20 amps/2000+ watts. One prong is a right angle to the other.

This is a 120 volt AC plug only rated for 15 amps/1700 watts and what is usually found on many smaller campers and RVs. Two power prongs are parallel.

[Maineah]

Once you connect the MH 30 amp plug to a adapter it becomes 15 amps (1800 watts). The breaker is rated 1800 watts. I often heat mine parked with a 1K electric heater with no problems. The converters are usually direct wired to the supply side of the main breaker so that they go on as soon as they are plugged in. Your 4th fuse from the left is not connected to any thing so probably some one stuck a dead fuse in there. If you are using any thing less then a reasonably short #12 extension cord the voltage drop will effect your current draw so ever is plugged draws more then it's rated current possibly enough to trip the breaker. The converter adds to the mix if it is being used to power enough 12 volt stuff even though it's not on a breaker lowering the current even further. Feel your extension cord when it's plugged in with the heater running if its warm it's too small too long or both.

[mgrijalva]

When i removed the positive power terminal to the secondary battery the cycling sound and ark continue.

Problem 1, the little dark box, the auto reset circuit breaker, has been replaced ($3.89 autozn). The problem remains to a degree.

Prior to replacing the resetbreaker, a power meter was used on the breaker and on the battery terminal switch. The power meter is the portable gadget that lights up when u hav power upon contact & with proper grounding. When the little breaker was tested there was no power at the red wire contact/screw. The battery terminal switch had power at the red wire contact. The secondary battery's power terminal had no power.

The little breaker was replaced. Now the little breaker powers up the power meter upon contact. There appears to be power running to the secondary battery now, I think. Upon initial contact to the battery terminal the gadget does not light up, when the autoresetbreaker makes its 'cycling' sound it lights up the gadget (power arrives for a second). The light does not stay lite, the power is not continuous. The sound continues consistently and so is the ark (spark). The ark is smaller now.

I drove around and the dashboard lights (Charge, Brake) flicker, and so do my headlights now. I didn't notice the headlights flickering before. In fact, I think the headlights didn't flicker before, as this would have been a major concern while i drove over here.

prior to replacing the little breaker, I followed the main power wire from the battery throughout the body frame, to the generator. At the generator the power wire was exposed at the junction where it becomes a white wire. Black tape was applied at the exposed area. The power wire showed signs of having touched the metal wall of the generator's enclosure. The wall was burnt a bit

???how do i know if the secondary battery is installed correctly. there are 2 reds wires and 1 white wire hooked up to the positive + terminal of the battery. there are 2 black wires on the negative terminal.

the fuse that was replaced was inside the coach, not an engine fuse. the fuse was the 4th of 4 vertical fuses inside the breaker box inside the coach. I just noticed the only horizontal fuse (20amp) was blown, i replaced w a 25 (i didn't have a 20). This fuse has a red wire running up to it. i will check it later tonight again. i am shored for the evening

i will address the space heater in a minute. the space heater labels states: 1500watt 120v 60hz

thank u

[mgrijalva]

ok, my power cord coming out of the motorhome is the big one, 2000watt. It has an adapter that results in a the parallel one. it appears i lose power capacity when i add the adapter. i must confess, i have an extension cord, #16, the yellow thick extension cord that is hooked to my cord in order to reach the power outlet to my son's mobile home. a fifty ft extension cord. hence, i am losing even more capacity.

my other option is to add an exterior power outlet to my son's mobile home. in fact, eventually i will have to do this because i will be visiting here often to see my grandkids

inside the coach i use the space heater 1500watt, lap top and charge up a cell phone.

Edited November 24, 2012 by mgrijalva

[5Toyota]

I would be concerned that a wire is wrong on the rv battery

[Maineah]

Your right at the max with your 120 volt stuff in a perfect world. You can not use a #16 wire for the heater even if it's not connected to the camper it's just too small. Your MH power cord is most likely a 30 amp most all campers are even popups but when its hooked to a adapter it no longer is because of the adapters 15 amp rating. Can you get 20 amps through it? Probably. However only if it connected to a 20 amp supply. The 20 amp cord caps are made to make it impossible to plug a 20 load load into a 15 amp outlet however a 20 outlet will accept a 15 amp plug (like your adapter). A #12 wire is ratted 20 amps but you can't use 100' of it and still retain that rating in your case I would try not to exceed 25' OK your lights, I think your 12 volt breaker is still tripping this would explain you blinking head lights. The load at the breaker dims the lights, the breaker trips and the lights get bright again. If you still have an issue with the battery disconnected there is some thing wrong with the wire from the little breaker up front and where it ends in the back. If you find that it needs to be replaced use a #8 wire that way it matches the breakers you all ready have. I think the glass fuse you had to replace was for the converter and probably blew because of your main issue.

[zero]

ok, my power cord coming out of the motorhome is the big one, 2000watt. It has an adapter that results in a the parallel one. it appears i lose power capacity when i add the adapter. i must confess, i have an extension cord, #16, the yellow thick extension cord that is hooked to my cord in order to reach the power outlet to my son's mobile home. a fifty ft extension cord. hence, i am losing even more capacity.

my other option is to add an exterior power outlet to my son's mobile home. in fact, eventually i will have to do this because i will be visiting here often to see my grandkids

inside the coach i use the space heater 1500watt, lap top and charge up a cell phone.

You could probably make that all work with a good extension cord and a grid-powered 15 amp outlet from the house. By code - any modern 15 amp outlet will be wired for 20 amps (12 gauge wire and 20 amp breaker). It's called "15 amp" because it has the two parallel prongs but is wired 20 amps unless the wiring is 50 years old. Extension cords can be misleading. I've had several 12 gauge 50 foot cords that would not work on a 1500 watt electric heater. I just melted one yestery on a 1500 watt block heater on my diesel bull dozer. Many 12 gauge cords have a weak-link at the molded ends where the plug is and melt there.

A 50 foot HD 10 gauge cord is what you need. Home Depot sells them. Rated for 1875 watts. I've used it on some of my 2000 watt block heaters and it worked well. Didn't even get warm, not even at the plugs. This is from the Home Depot description.

Life Link 50 ft. 10/3 Ridgid Cord, Single Outlet

Model # KAB3/KAB3F

Store SKU # 479186

It's a extra flexible heavy duty extension cord with triple outlets and yellow indicator light on the connector. 300 Volt rating on insulation jack, -58°F to 221°F. Weather and Oil resistant. Designed for outdoor use.

• 50 ft. Cord
  
  • Suitable for the most extreme whether condition
    
    • Indoor/outdoor suitable for commercial use
      
      • Suitable for the workshop and industrial site
        
        • 15Amp/125Volt/1875Watt
          
          • Approved by UL/cUL
            
            • MFG Brand Name : Life Link
              
              • MFG Model # : KAB3/KAB3F
                
                • MFG Part # : KAB3/KAB3F
                  

[mgrijalva]

Your right at the max with your 120 volt stuff in a perfect world. You can not use a #16 wire for the heater even if it's not connected to the camper it's just too small. Your MH power cord is most likely a 30 amp most all campers are even popups but when its hooked to a adapter it no longer is because of the adapters 15 amp rating. Can you get 20 amps through it? Probably. However only if it connected to a 20 amp supply. The 20 amp cord caps are made to make it impossible to plug a 20 load load into a 15 amp outlet however a 20 outlet will accept a 15 amp plug (like your adapter). A #12 wire is ratted 20 amps but you can't use 100' of it and still retain that rating in your case I would try not to exceed 25' OK your lights, I think your 12 volt breaker is still tripping this would explain you blinking head lights. The load at the breaker dims the lights, the breaker trips and the lights get bright again. If you still have an issue with the battery disconnected there is some thing wrong with the wire from the little breaker up front and where it ends in the back. If you find that it needs to be replaced use a #8 wire that way it matches the breakers you all ready have. I think the glass fuse you had to replace was for the converter and probably blew because of your main issue.

i stand corrected, i am using a #12 (12 gauge) extension cord. not a 16, sorry for confusion. the cord is yellow, very thick. I meant to distinguish that it is not the common orange extension cord. Maybe the math will add up now.

i followed the red wire coming out of the little breaker too, all the way to the secondary battery's enclosure.

[mgrijalva]

I assume you already know this but . .

This is a 120 volt AC plug rated for 20 amps/2000+ watts. One prong is a right angle to the other.

This is a 120 volt AC plug only rated for 15 amps/1700 watts and what is usually found on many smaller campers and RVs. Two power prongs are parallel.

i didn't think the DC problem was mixed w the AC system. Bear w me as i learn, but don't assume i know anything. too many times i feel like a 'child w a weapon in my hands' and probably lucky to b alive.

[zero]

i stand corrected, i am using a #12 (12 gauge) extension cord. not a 16, sorry for confusion. the cord is yellow, very thick. I meant to distinguish that it is not the common orange extension cord. Maybe the math will add up now.

A 50 foot extension cord with 12 gauge wire will run a typical 1500 watt electric heater if it has decent plugs on each end. Some don't. But - even with good ends - it will have trouble with a 1500 watt electric heater and an additional load from the AC to DC converter.that can easily draw an additional 300-800 watts depending on the model. Small motorhomes OEM typically have 400 watt converters. If you ran a dedicated cord to a dedicated outlet or power strip for thet heater - it ought to work fine.

[mgrijalva]

A 50 foot extension cord with 12 gauge wire will run a typical 1500 watt electric heater if it has decent plugs on each end. Some don't. But - even with good ends - it will have trouble with a 1500 watt electric heater and an additional load from the AC to DC converter.that can easily draw an additional 300-800 watts depending on the model. Small motorhomes OEM typically have 400 watt converters. If you ran a dedicated cord to a dedicated outlet or power strip for thet heater - it ought to work fine.

it seems to work fine.

my space heater is 1500watt max.....it has tripped the coach breaker once. i noticed the 4th vertical fuse that was blown appeared empty. i shook it and heard no sound. i didn't think it the heater tripping the inside coach breaker box was is related to the DC problem. I knew there were 2 systems, i just didn't understand them....still don't. It makes sense to add a separate strip for direct AC power. Yet these system come together at the coach breaker box (i think).

I am concerned that the only horizontal fuse inside the coach breaker box blew yesterday. I will assume it blew when we were using the meter reader. the fuse that blew was a 20, i replaced it with a 25 because it was the closet to 20. i had a 15 or 30 available. i am concerned because i see a red wire.

Last night i had 3 grandkids sleeping in here and they taught it was a great adventure to sleep in a motorhome (even though we are parked in the driveway). i kept the cold out from the front bubble window by placing 5 pillows upright against it. It made a difference. Even w the space heater, i feel a constant draft. I have a blanket creating a wall between the driver area and the coach.

Truth be told, i don't get tired of exploring to see what is the matter. i love learning all this stuff....if you think about it...it all adds up mathematically

[mgrijalva]

Once you connect the MH 30 amp plug to a adapter it becomes 15 amps (1800 watts). The breaker is rated 1800 watts. I often heat mine parked with a 1K electric heater with no problems. The converters are usually direct wired to the supply side of the main breaker so that they go on as soon as they are plugged in. Your 4th fuse from the left is not connected to any thing so probably some one stuck a dead fuse in there. If you are using any thing less then a reasonably short #12 extension cord the voltage drop will effect your current draw so ever is plugged draws more then it's rated current possibly enough to trip the breaker. The converter adds to the mix if it is being used to power enough 12 volt stuff even though it's not on a breaker lowering the current even further. Feel your extension cord when it's plugged in with the heater running if its warm it's too small too long or both.

the cord is not too warm or hot, it is a normal temperature to touch

[mgrijalva]

Regardless of what might be wrong - none of those areas should show any sparks. So, #1 you must have bad corroded connections. Clean them up with a wire brush and maybe add some stainless-steel tooth washers designed to promote good electrical contact on ring-terminals. #2 - you the clicking is probably that self-resettting circuit breaker firing on and off. That may be due to an overload - but also can be caused by "old age." Those circuit breakers use a small heat-sensitive bi-metal strip and a set of contacts. They get worn-out over time and lose their current carrying capacity. So, so checking is in order. I might be a 30 amp breaker that is worn out and cannot even carry 10 amps. Or - it might be a 30 amp breaker with a 50 amp load on it and keeps tripping. If so, it will get ruined fast anyway. New self-setting breakers are only $8 each at any decent auto parts store.

Your old relay might of been getting hot because it was the wrong kind. Many relays used on cars and truck are only rated for part-time use. They draw more current and get hot if on all the time. That's why your setup is supposed to have a low-current "full time duty" relay. Many part-time auto relays that look the same draw 6 amps, whereas a full-time relay will often only draw 3/4 to 1 1/2 amps.

how will i know if 'my 30 amp breaker that is worn out and cannot even carry 10 amps. Or - it might be a 30 amp breaker with a 50 amp load'? Now that i know how to use the meter reader...i can go around stabbing the red wire to fine out where the power stops. If i stab a red wire, wont' that break the structural strength of the power that is circulating???

But breakers? don't know. Isn't it easier to just buy new breakers since these are probably originals (1985)? they r easy to replace.

[mgrijalva]

Regardless of what might be wrong - none of those areas should show any sparks. So, #1 you must have bad corroded connections. Clean them up with a wire brush and maybe add some stainless-steel tooth washers designed to promote good electrical contact on ring-terminals. #2 - you the clicking is probably that self-resettting circuit breaker firing on and off. That may be due to an overload - but also can be caused by "old age." Those circuit breakers use a small heat-sensitive bi-metal strip and a set of contacts. They get worn-out over time and lose their current carrying capacity. So, so checking is in order. I might be a 30 amp breaker that is worn out and cannot even carry 10 amps. Or - it might be a 30 amp breaker with a 50 amp load on it and keeps tripping. If so, it will get ruined fast anyway. New self-setting breakers are only $8 each at any decent auto parts store.

Your old relay might of been getting hot because it was the wrong kind. Many relays used on cars and truck are only rated for part-time use. They draw more current and get hot if on all the time. That's why your setup is supposed to have a low-current "full time duty" relay. Many part-time auto relays that look the same draw 6 amps, whereas a full-time relay will often only draw 3/4 to 1 1/2 amps.

the relay is the silver bell shaped part, right? the little dark box is an autoresetbreaker which i replaced w the same size breaker. The silver bell/relay is brand new, this is making the clicking resetting sound. Should i get another relay but with full-time relay?

[zero]

i followed the red wire coming out of the little breaker too, all the way to the secondary battery's enclosure.

Hopefully you can read what I wrote in the images. There should be no sparks, regardless of normal draw or even a dead short.

[mgrijalva]

I would be concerned that a wire is wrong on the rv battery

this was the original problem...i bought the secondary battery, installed myself (wrongly though), and the coach lights didn't work. My younger inexperienced son re-installed it. The current wiring to the secondary battery is 2 red wires & a white wire on the positive terminal. The negative terminal has 2 black wires. The fuse box at the battery has a 25amp fuse please see pictures.

[zero]

the relay is the silver bell shaped part, right? the little dark box is an autoresetbreaker which i replaced w the same size breaker. The silver bell/relay is brand new, this is making the clicking resetting sound. Should i get another relay but with full-time relay?

I have no idea what relay/solenoid you have now? By the way, in this discussion "relay" and "solenoid" are the same thing. Get your hands on a $5-$10 digital multimeter and do some checks on it unless you already know what it is. Relays are either rated for "intermittent" use or "continuous" use. You need one rated for "continuous" use. A "continuous" use relay draws much less power to turn itself "on." "Intermittent" relays like often used on car and boat starter motors can draw 4-8 amps just to get "turned on." Relays rated "continuous" use draw 1/2 amp to 3 amps. If you have a cheap VOM, digital multimeter, ohm meter - etc. you can check your relay two different ways. To check by amperage draw - hook a amp-meter in-line with the little wire that goes to the small terminal on your relay. Turn your key "on" and see how many amps are flowing to it. A $5 digital multimeter from Harbor Freight has a 10-amp amp-meter built into it. To check by resistance - put your multimeter on the low ohm scale. Touch one lead to the small terminal on your relay and the other to any known good metal ground on your truck - or the can of the relay. An "intermittent" relay is likely to read 3 to 6 ohms. A "continuous" relay will read 8-15 ohms.

Your relay is the self-grounding type. That means it gets negative power from your battery via the metal ground of the truck. If there is corrosion where it contacts the truck - it might not be well grounded and might click on and off.

There is a lot to say about relays and I don't want to write a long boring essay. Most relays I see around, regardless of brand name are made by the same 2-3 companies. Ametek is one of the most prolific makers. Last I checked they make relays for Cole Heresee, Prestolite, Terkonsha, etc. Just about any continous relay is rated for 250,000 duty cycles or "on and offs."

The main attributes are this.

#1 - self grounding with one small post, or wire-grounded with two small posts.

#2 - intermittent use or continuous use

#3 - amp carry capacity. You ought to have something well about your alternator max charge capacity. I use 100 amp minimum

#4 - voltage - in this case, 12 volts that will work in a range from 9 to 16 volts

#5 - quality of contacts. Standard is copper and the longer lived and more pricey is silver

That is for a standard "on" or "off" relay/solenoid.

To make things more complicated, there are relays with "brains." They cost $150 instead of $15-$25. A relay with a "brain" sense voltage on the cranking battery and makes sure it is fully charged before allowing any charge current to go to the RV aux. battery. NAPA 782-1774 is one example and knowing NAPA, it is overpriced and can be found elsewhere for half the price.

The same basic Ametek relay that you need will sell from some places for $15 and others for $75. Those prices have nothing to do with quality.

A good basic low-draw, copper contact Ametek realy is SAS4208. Often for sale for $20 if you shop around. Same as: Prestolite: 15-139, 15-296, 15-342, 15-345, SAS-4208, SBC-4201, SBC-4201D, SBC-4201E

Johnson Electric: 5117540, SO51175 Cole Hersee 24106 24106BX

$22 on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Solenoid-SAS-4208-15-139-15-296-15-342-Prestolite-7-1019-/270992721151

$36.50 from Texas Industrial: http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays.asp

$25 from BargainBoats: http://www.bargainboatparts.com/searchcust.aspx?SearchTerm=sas-4208

$10 from DSI: http://dsi1998.com/partBreakdown.php?partId=110782&ref=home

If you want a low-draw, continious relay that uses a ground wire - these #s apply: AC Delco 1114218, Presolite 15-132, 15-133, 15-236, 15-311, SAS-4201, SAS-4202, SAS-4213, SAS-5213

[mgrijalva]

Hopefully you can read what I wrote in the images. There should be no sparks, regardless of normal draw or even a dead short.

l

ok, i will pick up a multi meter today. this makes sense. this is very good. Although the ark remains, the circuit breaker did need replacement i think because, Terminals 2 & 3 didn't light up when energized when the motor was running,prior to replacing breaker. Now they light up when energized.

I am driving home monday. In the worst case scenario, if i dont figure this out, i will still b able to drive, right? i made this far.

[mgrijalva]

I have no idea what relay/solenoid you have now? By the way, in this discussion "relay" and "solenoid" are the same thing. Get your hands on a $5-$10 digital multimeter and do some checks on it unless you already know what it is. Relays are either rated for "intermittent" use or "continuous" use. You need one rated for "continuous" use. A "continuous" use relay draws much less power to turn itself "on." "Intermittent" relays like often used on car and boat starter motors can draw 4-8 amps just to get "turned on." Relays rated "continuous" use draw 1/2 amp to 3 amps. If you have a cheap VOM, digital multimeter, ohm meter - etc. you can check your relay two different ways. To check by amperage draw - hook a amp-meter in-line with the little wire that goes to the small terminal on your relay. Turn your key "on" and see how many amps are flowing to it. A $5 digital multimeter from Harbor Freight has a 10-amp amp-meter built into it. To check by resistance - put your multimeter on the low ohm scale. Touch one lead to the small terminal on your relay and the other to any known good metal ground on your truck - or the can of the relay. An "intermittent" relay is likely to read 3 to 6 ohms. A "continuous" relay will read 8-15 ohms.

Your relay is the self-grounding type. That means it gets negative power from your battery via the metal ground of the truck. If there is corrosion where it contacts the truck - it might not be well grounded and might click on and off.

There is a lot to say about relays and I don't want to write a long boring essay. Most relays I see around, regardless of brand name are made by the same 2-3 companies. Ametek is one of the most prolific makers. Last I checked they make relays for Cole Heresee, Prestolite, Terkonsha, etc. Just about any continous relay is rated for 250,000 duty cycles or "on and offs."

The main attributes are this.

#1 - self grounding with one small post, or wire-grounded with two small posts.

#2 - intermittent use or continuous use

#3 - amp carry capacity. You ought to have something well about your alternator max charge capacity. I use 100 amp minimum

#4 - voltage - in this case, 12 volts that will work in a range from 9 to 16 volts

#5 - quality of contacts. Standard is copper and the longer lived and more pricey is silver

That is for a standard "on" or "off" relay/solenoid.

To make things more complicated, there are relays with "brains." They cost $150 instead of $15-$25. A relay with a "brain" sense voltage on the cranking battery and makes sure it is fully charged before allowing any charge current to go to the RV aux. battery. NAPA 782-1774 is one example and knowing NAPA, it is overpriced and can be found elsewhere for half the price.

The same basic Ametek relay that you need will sell from some places for $15 and others for $75. Those prices have nothing to do with quality.

A good basic low-draw, copper contact Ametek realy is SAS4208. Often for sale for $20 if you shop around. Same as: Prestolite: 15-139, 15-296, 15-342, 15-345, SAS-4208, SBC-4201, SBC-4201D, SBC-4201E

Johnson Electric: 5117540, SO51175 Cole Hersee 24106 24106BX

$22 on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/...9-/270992721151

$36.50 from Texas Industrial: http://www.texasindu....com/relays.asp

$25 from BargainBoats: http://www.bargainbo...chTerm=sas-4208

$10 from DSI: http://dsi1998.com/p...110782&ref=home

If you want a low-draw, continious relay that uses a ground wire - these #s apply: AC Delco 1114218, Presolite 15-132, 15-133, 15-236, 15-311, SAS-4201, SAS-4202, SAS-4213, SAS-5213

wow this is good. i'll start w the multimeter, i saw a harborfreight here. this relay is new. the old one was always hot, this relay is about 3-4 mo old. the relay runs harm now. the problems started when i installed the aux battery. Power wasn't reaching it. Yet,prior to buying the battery the positive terminal was live. When i bought this rv, I was exploring the aux battery enclosure and almost got shocked when moving the battery terminals around. i install the battery and it is not being charged (maybe the circuit breaker replacement will make a difference).

[WME]

There have been a lots of owners who get confused on the color of wires on the coach battery. You need to do a continuity check on the wires from the relay to the battery.

P.S. MOST of the time Black IS NOT Ground

[zero]

l

ok, i will pick up a multi meter today. this makes sense. this is very good. Although the ark remains, the circuit breaker did need replacement i think because, Terminals 2 & 3 didn't light up when energized when the motor was running,prior to replacing breaker. Now they light up when energized.

I think you've got things backwards. That breaker has nothing to do with energizing the relay.

Terminals #2 and #3 are on the charge-side (alternator side) of the circuit breaker. When the relay energized, flow of power is FROM #2 and #3 and through that circuit breaker and on to the AUX battery. My point is the circuit breaker has nothihg to do with energizing that relay. You could remove it and the relay would still enerize if wired and working properly. Nobody really knows where or how electric power flows but . . .to dicuss it we use the Electron Theory. I.e. higher voltage always flows to lower voltage. So -with your Toyota when it is NOT running. If all is wired correct - your cranking battery has the same voltage as your RV battery. Let's say they are both charged and 12.7 volts. At that circuit breaker - when the relay is NOT enerized, terminal #4 will read 12.7 volts because it's getting power from the RV battery. If the breaker is good, terminals #3 and #2 will also read 12.7 volts from that RV/AUX battery. At this time, nothing is coming from the other direction (the relay). When you turn the key on, and the relay turns "on", then . . . the cranking battery is connected to the RV/AUX battery via that relay and breaker. If you turned the key on and both batteries were fully charged, there would be no current flow. If you turned the key on, and the RV/AUX battery was low - then power from the higher voltage cranking battery would flow on to the lower voltage RV/AUX battery until they were both equal. So, the cranking battery would discharge, and the RV/AUX battery would charge a bit. Then when you start the engine, the alternator raises the system voltage to 14 volts and that power flows to both batteries until both are fully charged..

[zero]

There have been a lots of owners who get confused on the color of wires on the coach battery. You need to do a continuity check on the wires from the relay to the battery.

P.S. MOST of the time Black IS NOT Ground

Yes, you always have to check but in factory wiring - or wiring done to code . . . black IS the usual color of choice for ground/negative in DC wiring and red is the what's normally used for hot/positive (sometimes blue or yellow). Black in AC wiring is the color of choice for the hot leg of a 120 volt circuit. In the case of AC wiring, white is neutral and green is ground, and red is used if there is a second "hot" leg.

Since motorhomes and RVs have a mix of AC and DC wiring, you have to be real careful about colors. And since many have been rewired over the years by people who only had one roll of wire that was one color - who knows?

[mgrijalva]

Hopefully you can read what I wrote in the images. There should be no sparks, regardless of normal draw or even a dead short.

i got the $5meter. i don't have the simple meter that lights up anymore, but this one looks intimidating. I don't know where to put the leads when in ohm mode. So i placed the leads on the top and bottom holes. I selected 10a per meter instructions. With the motor off, i placed the black lead on the motor block, and took turns placing the positive lead on all the terminals. Nothing. I turned oOn the motor and the #1 went up to 14.9 (varying) dropping to 12 when it makes the clicking sound. The red lead ire on the meter got very and soft.

[Maineah]

All bets are off when it comes to 12 volt MH colors there is no code. I have a tow behind black is + white is ground My MH is red is+ ground is black. In high voltage wiring any color other then white or green or bare is hot. The solenoid is working it's not cycling the breaker is that is job 1 I do not believe your coach battery is charging. Your 15 amp MH breaker is likely to trip with a 1500 watt heater and any thing else running even with the MH plugged into a 30 outlet. Breakers are pretty bullet proof other wise there would be a lot of burned out houses. You are right on the edge of max current. A 1000 watt heater will heat the camper that is an option. Your extension cord is an SJ type there should be a AWG rating also, case in point a #12 wire is rated 20 amps the extension plug is NEMA 15 it will handle 20 amps putting a pin sideways does not enhance the rating it just makes in impossible to use it in a 15 amp outlet. Until you get this sorted out I would advise disconnecting your isolator relay to avoid damage to your 12 volt electrical system and alternator.

[zero]

i got the $5meter. i don't have the simple meter that lights up anymore, but this one looks intimidating. I don't know where to put the leads when in ohm mode. So i placed the leads on the top and bottom holes. I selected 10a per meter instructions. With the motor off, i placed the black lead on the motor block, and took turns placing the positive lead on all the terminals. Nothing. I turned oOn the motor and the #1 went up to 14.9 (varying) dropping to 12 when it makes the clicking sound. The red lead ire on the meter got very and soft.

If you don't read the instructions carefully that came with the meter - you are going to ruin it fast. I've been working with wiring for 50 years and I still burn out meters when I get in a hurry. Granted I only pay $4 or $5 each for my beater "el cheapos" and subsequently do not use utmost care. I have a few very expensive ones also but don't leave them kicking around in my shop or toolbox. When using the ohm scale - you cannot touch anything with power. If you have it on ohms and touch one lead to ground and another to a hot positive - it will blow the meter instantly. If you have the meter on the amp scale and put the leads in series with a circuit that has well over 10 amps - your meter is up in smoke again. If you have the meter on the AC or DC volt scale - you're pretty safe Not much you can do to hurt it.

Most digital multi-meters that have an amp scale require you to plug the red test lead into a special amp-test only hole.

If already did mess up the meter - they have fuses that blow during such mishaps. But the cheap meters rarely work again after you stick a new fuse in. You can pay $4 for a cheap meter and over $200 for a not-so-cheap meter. For what you're doing, a cheap meter is fine but you to be real careful.

[5Toyota]

according to my factory national rv rv battery diagram two white wires are ground one black from, the breaker and two red with line fuses are the three positive wires NOTE I SAID WHITE WAS THE GROUND USED BY NATIONAL RV

[Maineah]

Here in lies the problem he now has 3 colors making up his ground wiring in about 2 feet! Lots of things happen in 25+ years.

[zero]

according to my factory national rv rv battery diagram two white wires are ground one black from, the breaker and two red with line fuses are the three positive wires NOTE I SAID WHITE WAS THE GROUND USED BY NATIONAL RV

I've got a Toyota Dolphin wiring schematic and it shows - from the factory - a black main ground wire on the cranking battery and on the positive side - also black. So yeah, you never know. I suspect that at least some RV engineers figured that RVs have AC and DC wiring under the same roof (unlike a typical house). AC calls for BLACK for a hot wire - where as DC calls for BLACK for ground. So, having the two systems under one roof makes colors kind of meaningless.

I just got done wiring a complete house for DC and AC. It was a nightmare. Even the electrcial inspector wasn't quite sure how to address certain issues.