Micromini Overload Article #2 - Sunrader And Dolphin Chime In

[zero]

Another great article published in May,1983. People from Sunrader and Dolphin comment on the issue. Also mentions the company that supplied many of the "fake duallies." That is Arrowcraft. Also discusses the demise of tag-axles.

[5Toyota]

very nice reading thanks

[Debbit]

I've been interested in these articles, thanks! But I have some questions after reading. Maybe I missed the information that would answer my questions, if so, sorry. I have always thought the GVWR was the actual weight of the vehicle, which I see isn't true. Is there anywhere on the RV the dry weight of the vehicle is posted, or do you just have to go weigh it? Is the higher weight rated, 6 bolt axle the answer to the problems addressed in these articles? If I understand, the rating is the most your vehicle should weigh, even with the heavier axle.

[linda s]

Yes for curb weight you need to go and have it weighed. GVWR is the max you should load that chassis to. When Toyota went from a non full float in 85 to the full float in 86 they made no changes to the GVWR of the cab and chassis. I always wondered about that.

Linda S

[zero]

I've been interested in these articles, thanks! But I have some questions after reading. Maybe I missed the information that would answer my questions, if so, sorry. I have always thought the GVWR was the actual weight of the vehicle, which I see isn't true. Is there anywhere on the RV the dry weight of the vehicle is posted, or do you just have to go weigh it? Is the higher weight rated, 6 bolt axle the answer to the problems addressed in these articles? If I understand, the rating is the most your vehicle should weigh, even with the heavier axle.

The "G" in GVWR is for "gross" meaning total weight of everything pushing down on the tires. "Curb weight" is the RV with all options and equipment, full gas tank, all other fluid tanks full including propane tank(except waste tanks), if equipped with an ice-box it will be loaded with ice, but no passengers and go extra cargo. All manufacturers of RVs had to post curb-weights when selling them. Toyota did not allow any RVs to have a "curb weight" of over 3510 lbs. in 1985 for sure and up through 1987 ( I think). In 1988, Toyota upped the "curb weight" to a maximum of 3820 lbs. One extra leaf spring was put in each side in the rear (6 leafs to 7 leafs), the "spring rate" was increased, and the diameter of the rear stablizer bar was increased from 23 mm to 25 mm. Also increased the rear axle rating by 50 lbs. IF a dually. By 1990, Toyota allowed a max. "curb weight" of 3820 lbs. for single-rear-wheel RVs or trucks. For dual-rear-wheel setups, Toyota allowed a max "curb weight" of 4000 lbs. for anything BUT motorhomes. Motorhomes with rear dual wheels were allowed a "curb weight" up to 5000 lbs. if Toyota approved of their setup.

Some people call "curb weight", "wet weight" instead. It usually means the same thing.

[zero]

Here are a few posted curb weights. Some are with no options and some are with a few options that seem to put them over the allowed Toyota limit. All with no cargo and no passengers.

1993 Dolphin - 5010 lbs.
1993 Sea Breeze 900 - 5010 lbs.
1993 Winnebago Micro-Mini Spirit 321RD - 5035 lbs.
1993 Winnebago Micro-Mini Warrior 321RB - 5035 lbs.
1977 Dolphin 16' 4" long - 3600 lbs.
1977 Toyota Chinook pop-top - 3250 lbs.
1986 Dolphin 500 21' 7" long - 5020 lbs.

[linda s]

Curb weight in my 86 Sunrader shorty is about 4800lbs. Mine is only 18 feet long and almost all Toyota motorhomes that year will be heavier cause most were 21 feet. I don't think Toyota got all that involved in what the manufacturers slapped on their chassis

Linda S

[zero]

Toyota has nearly full "hands on" control of completed RVs with the early Chinooks. For others it was handled differently. The end result still had to be certified by the Feds to be safe, regardless who took responsibility.

RV manufacturers had to get their completed RV certified with Toyota or warrantys were void on the new cab & chassis from Toyota. From the specs I've read, it appears RV makers would submit data sheets to Toyota for stripped down "bare bones" RV models can get certified. Then offer extra options to customers that often put the RV over the allowed weight.

From Toyota 1985 Cab & Chassis book: "Toyota will honor its warranty commitment (for the cab & chassis only) to the ultimate customer provided (1) the final stage manufactuer has not made any alternations or modifications which render any Emission Control device or any item of safety equipment (which has been certified by Toyota) to be in nonconformity; and (2) the final stage manufactuer complies with instructions contained herein with respect to completion of this vehicle. Otherwise the warranty becomes the responsibility of the final-stage manufacturer. The final stage manufacturer is solely responsible for the final certification of the vehicle."

[zero]

Toyota added these comments in 1989 and sent out to all RV makers they sold to.

November, 1989

For more then 20 years now, since January 1, 1968, it has been illegal for a manufacturer, distributor, or dealer to sell any new motor vehicle which does not comply with the Safety Standards in effect at the time the motor vehilce is manufactured.

Every complete vehicle produced by Toyota Motor Corporation carries a label certifiying that the vehicle complies with all applicable Safety Standards. As a general rule this certification is not valid if:

1. Dealer or distributor alterations causing non-compliance

2. Dealer or distributor did not do the alterations, but had knowledge of them when the vehicle was sold
3. Reworking vehicle bodies for appearance reasons the might result in non-compliance
4. Installation of a modified fuel system or adding aux. fuel tanks
5. Removal of original tires furnished by Toyota and replaced with non-equivalent tires.

6. Replacement of factory wheels with certain stylized wheels or dual rear wheels.

7. Replacement wheels must be capable of retaining a flat tire @ 60 MPH

Part 567 of Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations requires any person who alters a vehicle that already has been certified to affix an additional certification label attesting to the effect that it complies to all appllicable Safety Standards subsequent to the alteration.

Also - in 1974, Congress amended the Safety Act to prohibit a manufacturer, distributor, dealer, or motor vehicle repair business from altering a vehicle that effects compliance with a Federal Motor Safety Standard.

Signed by R.J. Gallio - Toyota Vice President of Service
Signed by Robert E. Bennett - Corporate U.S. Products Manager

This letter came with the 1990 Toyota Cab & Chassis body builder's guide. In 1990, a cab & chassis with single rear wheels had a GVWR of 5600 lbs. and with dual-rear-wheels 6000 lbs. Trucks with single rear wheels came with 8 ply rear tires - 185R14LT8PR, and dual-rear-wheel trucks came with 6 ply tires - 185R14LT6PR

[Debbit]

So the allowable curb weight according to Toyota was regularly exceeded by 2000 lbs?

[zero]

So the allowable curb weight according to Toyota was regularly exceeded by 2000 lbs?

Not that I know what. What model and specific RV are you referring to? "Curb weight" is what the RV was certified at when sold and would have a sticker on it some where (at least it was there when new).

In 1985, max. curb weight was 3510 lbs. and same vehicle allowed to weigh 5500 lbs. when loaded with cargo and passengers.

In 1988, max. curb weight was 3820 lbs. and same vehicle allowed to weigh 5500 lbs. when loaded with cargo and passengers.

In 1990, max curb weight was 3650-5000 lbs. and allowed to weigh 6000 lbs. when loaded with cargo and passengers.

[Debbit]

Oh, I hadn't had coffee yet. Had it backwards, (or maybe not). So guess one weighs camper, hopes it isn't heavier than sticker on door frame says it should be.

[linda s]

I would be surprised if you could find any Toyota motorhome that could meet those curb weight requirements.

Linda S

[zero]

Can you name one RV that is has a curb weight way over Toyota specs? Curb weight would be as it left the factory with no additions, repairs, cargo, added appliances, passengers, etc. They all get certified when sold new. Are you saying that there were motorhome makers that sold new RVs that were heavier then their listed curb weight? I find it hard to believe any RV seller would take that chance. Offering options AFTER the certification that might make it exceed the listed curb weight, yes.

And weights of RVs now that were made 30-40 years ago? Kind of meaningless. Years go by and things get added, upgraded, repaired, etc. Heck even if someone had an RV with no changes and nothing added, any wood in it has likely soaked up water and gotten substantially heavier. I just repaired the cab-over section of my Minicruiser and the weight of the rotten water-soaked wood that was in there was incredible.

[linda s]

Well mine. 4800 lbs. About a 1000 lbs over. Go weigh your Mini Cruiser with nothing in it and let me know. We've been through this before and a bunch of people posted their weight. Most under GVWR but none with the crazy low curb weight ratings you are posting. Members, is there anyone out there with a 21 foot 88 motorhome that only weighs 3800 lbs empty? And the numbers for an 85. In 85 Sunrader did custom frame extensions on the larger models. I measured the wheelbase of a friends cause it looked so long. 42 inch long wheel base. No way it weighed less than my 112 inch wheel base 86 model and by thousands of pounds no less

Linda S

[zero]

My 88 Minicruiser would be WAY over. I've added steel to the back frame, added air-bags for the rear springs, added extra leafs to the rear springs, air-shocks, two aux batteries, microwave, carry box in rear, solar panels, etc.

My 1978 Chinook is also way over. Just fixing the rotted floor added a lot of weight. Near impossible to recreate the lightweight cardboard honey-comb design used when new. I added steel to the frame, lots more wood inside, beefed up the roof, added aux gas tank,microwave, two aux batteries, cabinets, full floating dually rear, etc.

My point being nothing I own reflects what the maker certified when selling new.

Here are all the stats I have on new RVs that were weighed without passengers when new - but many had added options the makes did NOT use when getting certified.

1975 Mazda Skamper with rotary engine - 3685 lbs.

1973 Toyota Round Tripper - 2950 lbs. CERTIFIED

1978 Champion Galavan 400 16' - 3730 lbs.
1979 Chinook Eagle 17' - 2950 lbs.

1978 Dolphin 300 17' - 3930 lbs.
1979 Keystone 16' - 4103 lbs.

1979 Odyssey 19' - 4470 lbs.

1979 Mirage 17 1/2' - 3900 lbs.

1977 Chinook MPG - 3470 lbs.

1978 Toyota Scat - 3367 lbs.

1979 Sand Pak 17' - 4170 lbs.

1983 Dolphin 700 - 20' 6" - 4530 lbs.

1986 Dolphin 500 - 21' 7" - 5020 lbs.

1977 Chinook - 3250 lbs.

1977 Dolphin - 16' 4" - 3600 lbs.

1993 Winnebago Warrior 321RB - 5,035 lbs. CERTIFIED

1993 Winnebago Spirit 321RD - 5035 lbs. CERTIFIED

1993 Sea Breeze 900 - 5010 lbs. CERTIFIED

1993 Dolphin - 5010 lbs. CERTIFIED

[linda s]

Mine is completely original except I removed the very heavy air conditioner from the roof. Still has a Kohler generator that was factory installed in the original coach that I could get about 120lbs lighter removing. Still would be way over and like I said before the 21 footers would have to be more

Linda

[passman]

1986 Sunrader, completely original, tanks empty except 1/4 tank of gas and propane tank removed weighed:

Front = 1760lb

Rear = 3880lb

Total = 5640lb

[zero]

1986 Sunrader, completely original, tanks empty except 1/4 tank of gas and propane tank removed weighed:

Front = 1760lb

Rear = 3880lb

Total = 5640lb

According to your specs, your rig would weigh 5767 lbs. with a full propane tank and gas tank with NO cargo and NO passengers. I do not believe it. I find it hard to believe any reputable company would sell a new RV that was 167 lbs. over the GVWR with no cargo and no passengers. That makes no sense, at least not to me. Not only does it make no sense, it would be illegal.

[passman]

According to your specs, your rig would weigh 5767 lbs. with a full propane tank and gas tank with NO cargo and NO passengers. I do not believe it. I find it hard to believe any reputable company would sell a new RV that was 167 lbs. over the GVWR with no cargo and no passengers. That makes no sense, at least not to me. Not only does it make no sense, it would be illegal.

I really don't care what you believe or not. I'm just quoting scale numbers off a highway scale.

[zero]

Do you believe that Sunraders were sold new already over the GVWR before any passengers were even sitting in cab?

[passman]

would that surprise you so much?

[zero]

Yes it woulds surprise me since they managed to stay in business for quite awhile. They would of had to submit false documents to the Federal government claiming the RVs were not over the max GVWR. I'm not even sure if that is possible since I believe they have have a sample unit weighed when certified. I know of several companies that made RVs that were so close that two fat passengers would put the RV over. But selling a new empty RV already a couple of hundred pounds over? I've never heard of any company doing something that bold and dumb.

GM did something similar and got caught within two years when they had dealers installing Chinook RV bodies on Chevy Blazers and GMC Jimmies. Those things were around 500 lbs. under the GVWR with no passengers. The Feds got involved and put a halt to it. I guess that's why they were only around for 2 years. Toyota-Chinook's Round Tripper (a joint project) was over when they tried to come out with their first Toyota RV back in 1973. The Feds stopped them before it was even released and they had to strip out the stove, propane tank, metal sink, etc. just to get it certified. After it got certified, they offered an "upgrade" kit that put some of that weight back on.